Looking to buy a new People Mover.

[cjandlj]

Not going to get into the politics of the people mover vs 4wd but I have a friend who recently went through the exercise and did quite a bit of research and ended up buying a Mazda CX9. It was the Mazda or the Audi she was choosing from in the end.

They are becoming a very popular for people who want to 'move' a family larger than 5.

Anyway HTH..

Cheers
Rochelle

 

[RedPanda]

Not going to get into the politics of the people mover vs 4wd but I have a friend who recently went through the exercise and did quite a bit of research and ended up buying a Mazda CX9. It was the Mazda or the Audi she was choosing from in the end.

They are becoming a very popular for people who want to 'move' a family larger than 5.

Anyway HTH..

Cheers
Rochelle

I like Mazda CX9 too! In fact I like all Mazda cars.

 

[CHam]

We just purchased a Mazda CX9 for the wife and she loves it. With the current deal on $45,990 driveaway (base model) it really is a good purchase.

And just on the 4WD versus other car arguments - RedPanda you have it soooo wrong it isn't funny.

4WD's don't stop, handle or corner like a car or most people movers. Therefore it is easier to get into trouble in the first place.
As mentioned before more chance of rollover in an accident.
Construction is designed for off road capabilities and hence on road performance suffers.

And I don't know how you can argue that people movers cost more money than 4WD's in the long run. Servicing is more expensive on a 4WD (more parts to service), tyres are more expensive, they go through brakes at a higher rate, wheel alignments are more expensive, sheesh even washing a 4WD is more expensive.

Haven't you noticed that anywhere that offer car service, wash, tyres, alignement, etc. etc. there is a price for cars and another for 4WD's.....?

And better quality product? On what basis do you come to that conclusion??? Compare a Mazda people mover with any 4WD in the same price bracket and see which is the better quality (and see if you get the same features).

I know what I would rather drive on the road and it isn't a large, slow cumbersome 4WD that drives like a truck!

 

[Ideo]

And let's also distinguish between crossovers (Mazda CX, Audi Q5 etc) and the Pajeros, Landcruisers and the like.

 

[RedPanda]

And just on the 4WD versus other car arguments - RedPanda you have it soooo wrong it isn't funny.

4WD's don't stop, handle or corner like a car or most people movers. Therefore it is easier to get into trouble in the first place.
As mentioned before more chance of rollover in an accident.
Construction is designed for off road capabilities and hence on road performance suffers.

And I don't know how you can argue that people movers cost more money than 4WD's in the long run. Servicing is more expensive on a 4WD (more parts to service), tyres are more expensive, they go through brakes at a higher rate, wheel alignments are more expensive, sheesh even washing a 4WD is more expensive.

Haven't you noticed that anywhere that offer car service, wash, tyres, alignement, etc. etc. there is a price for cars and another for 4WD's.....?

And better quality product? On what basis do you come to that conclusion??? Compare a Mazda people mover with any 4WD in the same price bracket and see which is the better quality (and see if you get the same features).

I know what I would rather drive on the road and it isn't a large, slow cumbersome 4WD that drives like a truck!

Wow! You sound as if 4wds are hazard on roads! And, most of the accidents would be involving 4wds. Next time just have a look around on the road and see what to you see more on city roads, 4wds or people movers. And keep guessing the reasons in light of your views on 4wds.

We just purchased a Mazda CX9 for the wife and she loves it. With the current deal on $45,990 driveaway (base model) it really is a good purchase.

And let's also distinguish between crossovers (Mazda CX, Audi Q5 etc) and the Pajeros, Landcruisers and the like.

Congratulations on your purchase. I agree that CX9 is a god buy. But Cham, what do you think a CX9 is more of? A people mover or a 4wd? Do you realise that CX9 comes in FWD and AWD option? And assuming you bought a FWD, how fundamentally different are the two variants in regards to the points you mentioned? Also how do you classify a Toyota Kluger AWD as?

 

[Rolf Latham]

Hi

If u stick with basic insurance stats, workhorse 4wd like Cruisers Patrols et al tend to have a rating one with many insurers

If these vehicles were a significantly higher claim risk, surely they would be grouped with the higher risk vehicles ?

On another pet topic, related too lets not make the assumption that one 5 star ANCAP rated car is equal to another.

The latest Barina has a 5 star rating. That does not mean its occupants would come away equally from a major stoush with an S class Benz or a 7 series BMW or for that matter a 3 star rated 2008 patrol.

Relative mass matters.

ta
rolf

 

[Rolf Latham]

And I don't know how you can argue that people movers cost more money than 4WD's in the long run.

dhttp://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and-reviews/car-news/car_running_costs_annual_figures

some test data

I suspect though the longer the vehicle is kept the less real cost a large 4wd is because the depreciation is much less over 10 years than say a Mazda MPV or a Tarago

BTW, a people mover I would say is MORE than a 7 seater, ie tarago Carnival, VW, etc

We have a 7 seat Sorrento and it does not compare to a Tarago size vehicle in space or versatility.

ta'rolf

 

[Ostraylia]

what do you think a CX9 is more of? A people mover or a 4wd? Do you realise that CX9 comes in FWD and AWD option? And assuming you bought a FWD, how fundamentally different are the two variants in regards to the points you mentioned? Also how do you classify a Toyota Kluger AWD as?

What do you call/classify a CRV? RAV4? Are these 4WDs?

A Kluger is not a 4WD. It is a People Mover or Cross over at best. Even Toyota on their website refer to it as a 'People Mover". http://www.toyota.com.au/kluger/fea...=&ModuleInteract=1&VehicleConversionID=Kluger

As for the CX9, regardless of its drive train option, it isn't a 4WD either. Heck the ground clearance is less than a Subaru Forester, which actually is a crossover vehicle. The CX9 in the 7 seater variety is a people mover, albeit a stylish one. The AWD option alone doesn't make it a 4WD.

4WD, are designed for a major purpose, that is to be driven offroad. Their primary focus isn't around town driving. They are slow and cumbersome. The chasis/body combination is designed in a different way compared to standard road, city if you like, vehicles. CX9, Kluger etc have their chasis/body designed like any other standard road car. That is just part of the reason why they have superior around town handling than your Patrols, Pejeros et al.

Actually, if you take the CX9 as an example, it has a clearance height of around 15cm. A cross over, ie not a true 4WD, such as the Forester has a clearance of 20cm. That alone suggest that the CX9 practically has no off road ability what so ever. (A road with dirt on it isn't off road, a 2WD vehicle can go down these) Another words its approach and departure angles are basically no better than a typical wagon.

None of the cars mentioned even have the same suspension setup as real offroad vehicles. Let alone a similar differential setup.

RedPanda, i'm sorry, but you should try to take in what others that certainly know more than you (in this case) are saying. 4WD don't handle better in the city/suburbs better than a purpose built people mover. That is not their primary design.

 

[Ostraylia]

On another pet topic, related too lets not make the assumption that one 5 star ANCAP rated car is equal to another.

The latest Barina has a 5 star rating. That does not mean its occupants would come away equally from a major stoush with an S class Benz or a 7 series BMW or for that matter a 3 star rated 2008 patrol.

Relative mass matters.

Absolutely agree! This is one of my pet hates about the rating system. Have a 5 star Barina crash into any 3/4 star large vehicle and that 5 star rating means absolutely nothing.

On a side note, you should check out some of the crash tests on youtube... it really makes the perspective a reality.

 

[cjandlj]

what do you think a CX9 is more of? A people mover or a 4wd?

I drive a Lexus RX330 which is pretty much the same as the Mazda CX9 in terms of shape. It is AWD however I would NEVER take it off road. Moreso because its my baby and I wouldnt want it scratched

Hubby has a Hilux 4WD and we take that on the beach and you do see the odd CX9, Lexus, Ford Territory labouring through the sand and getting bogged.

But IMHO they arent a 4WD.

 

[CHam]

Congratulations on your purchase. I agree that CX9 is a god buy. But Cham, what do you think a CX9 is more of? A people mover or a 4wd? Do you realise that CX9 comes in FWD and AWD option? And assuming you bought a FWD, how fundamentally different are the two variants in regards to the points you mentioned? Also how do you classify a Toyota Kluger AWD as? [/QUOTE]

I realise that the CX9 comes in FWD and AWD, as does the Kluger, etc. They are people movers with a part time or 'on-the-fly' AWD and in my opinion fairly useless in AWD guise - which is why ours is the FWD model. AWD simply adds cost, weight, fuel usage and additional components that are not required in a 200kw car that weighs 2 tonne. A salesperson who tried to seel us an AWD model told my wife that an AWD is safer is it would stop better in the wet......please!!!

And I reiterate my point on which is better to drive by a long way. 4WD is OK for people who actually need one but please don't get me started on people who buy Range Rovers, Pajero's, Landcruiser's etc and never go anywhere but schools and supermarkets. And I stand by my statement that they are no better built or safer just because they are bigger and have a bull bar!

 

[RedPanda]

So it comes town to definitions of People Movers and 4wd. There are so many terms which have come up over the years to describe new vehicles with enhanced capabilities. I think often these terms are used loosely. I am no car expert by any means but this is what I understand from what I have read, understood, discussed, seen or heard. References are given below.

A People mover is an over-sized car built with the primary purpose of ferrying people.

An SUV (Sports Utility Vehicle) / soft-roader / off-roader are cars with off-road capabilities. They may or may not be 4wd. They may or may not be 7+ seaters. But all 4wd are basically SUVs. Just as different cars have different capabilities all SUVs are not the same. Some have more off-roading capibility than others. All 4wds are not the same. Some have much better on-road handling than others.

4wd basically refers to to the drivetrain, and also used to describe the off-roading capability. A car which has a four-wheel drivtrain is a 4wd. All commercial unmodified 4wds have on-road capability and not just made solely for off-roading.

What do you call/classify a CRV? RAV4? Are these 4WDs?

YES.

A Kluger is not a 4WD.

It is an SUV which comes in 2wd and 4wd option.

It is a People Mover or Cross over at best.

Define cross-over, It's nothing more than a loosely used term to describe varying degrees of capabilities. Any definition will make all 4wds as cross-overs.

Even Toyota on their website refer to it as a 'People Mover". http://www.toyota.com.au/kluger/feat...rsionID=Kluger

A classics case of ignoring the main headline and dwelling into fine print just for the sake of argument.

http://www.toyota.com.au/kluger#colours

Check the Toyota homepage. Look at the top menu with car categories. It says. Cars, Hybrids, SUVs and 4WDs, Utes and Vans.

Inside SUVs and 4Wds, you'll find Rav4, Kluger, Prado and Landcruiser. Inside Utes and Vans, you'll find Tarago.

Open Kluger page and it is described as SUV, Open Tarago page and it is described as a people mover. The page that you gave a link of, does not refer Kluger as a People Mover. It is a features page which enlists people mover as a feature, in other words Kluger can also be used as a people mover because it has 7 seats. Confusing!

As for the CX9, regardless of its drive train option, it isn't a 4WD either.

Cannot agree with this.

4WD don't handle better in the city/suburbs better than a purpose built people mover. That is not their primary design.

All SUVs are not the same. Some like Kluger handle much better on city roads than some like Landcruiser. There are varying degrees of on-road and off-road capability in different 4wds to suit oneself.

As another example Kia Sorrento, Rondo and Carnival, all have 7 or more seats. But Sorrento is classed as an SUV (because of off-road capability) and Rondo and Carnival are classed as people movers (because of lack of off-road capability).

Check out some leading car websites. Try finding a Kluger, CRV or a CX9 in people mover category. And check where RAV4 is categorised. If we are discussing terminology, I'm not sure that there are specific definitions. I'm only stating what is broadly understood by most people.

http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and-reviews/buyers-guide/best-selling_people_movers
http://www.caradvice.com.au/category/car-reviews-road-test/people-mover-behind-the-wheel/

http://www.drive.com.au/-4WD--/4@/@spg418/pg1fr19/results.html

Or even try searching for 4x4 and people movers on carsales.com.au and see in which category you find Rav4, Kluger, Tarago CX9 and Landcruiser.

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars...Seats:Min,Max|EngineSize:Min,Max&sort=default

Instead of us debating on such an elementary issue, why not use Google. Enough said.

I have finished conveying my point (which is to also consider 4wds) to the thread starter who seem to have disappeared or enjoying this from a distance.

 

[Ideo]

You are confusing convential cars with a raised platform that may or may not have AWD with vehicles based on a more traditional ladder frame with 4WD. They are two different things.

Crossovers/SUVs and the like are different than traditional 4WDs and have more in common with people movers (taking into account characteristics and design criteria).

Do you claim the Subaru Outback as a 4WD? If yes, how about the Subaru Liberty Wagon? Same chassis, same engine, same drivetrain, same body. It's just the outback has a bit more suspension travel.

 

[CHam]

Lets simplify this:

A 4WD is a vehicle with high / low range capabilities, transfer case, mechanical 4WD capabilities, etc. Examples are Prado, Landcruiser, Jeep, etc.

An SUV is a vehicle with part time all wheel drive (AWD) which is very different to 4WD. These are electronically controlled and AWD only activates when the system senses slip in the front wheels. It is not and cannot be configured as a permanent 4WD system. Examples are Mazda CX9, Kluger, etc.

People movers are generally 2WD but can be AWD which is where the line is blurred between a people mover / AWD / SUV. But again AWD is really false advertising because 99% of the time they are only FWD.

SUV, People movers, Crossovers, etc. are simply names dreamed up by marketing people who don't know the difference and are trying to create a new market segment. The real difference between a 4WD and AWD is clear.

 

[units4me]

While a lot of the big 4WDs/soft roaders have 7 registered seats, they are not GENUINE 7 seaters. The third row is usually severely compromised, only for kids, or short trips.

Also, with all seats in use, there is almost no luggage space, especially important when you consider how much luggage space is needed for all 7 people on a trip.

Access into the third row can be an issue also.

If you do need an occasional 7 seater (picking up a couple of your kid's mates etc), then a 4WD/soft roader will be fine. If you are consistently carrying full load, then I think the people movers are much more suitable.

Any how, for a people mover, you can't go past the Kia Grand Carnival 8 seater with 143kw, 429nm, 8.1l/100km diesel engine. Huge inside, and very versatile. Quality now up with the Japanese cars.

We had one of the first 1999 KIA Carnivals, with the (now) known infamous engine failure problem, bought new. The engine failed at 6 years old/100000kms. Kia replaced the engine, no fuss, no hassle at their expense. I don't think Toyota or Ford would do that. Other than that, was fantastic for the 8 yrs we had it.

 

[Ideo]

Lets simplify this:

A 4WD is a vehicle with high / low range capabilities, transfer case, mechanical 4WD capabilities, etc. Examples are Prado, Landcruiser, Jeep, etc.

An SUV is a vehicle with part time all wheel drive (AWD) which is very different to 4WD. These are electronically controlled and AWD only activates when the system senses slip in the front wheels. It is not and cannot be configured as a permanent 4WD system. Examples are Mazda CX9, Kluger, etc.

People movers are generally 2WD but can be AWD which is where the line is blurred between a people mover / AWD / SUV. But again AWD is really false advertising because 99% of the time they are only FWD.

SUV, People movers, Crossovers, etc. are simply names dreamed up by marketing people who don't know the difference and are trying to create a new market segment. The real difference between a 4WD and AWD is clear.

So, a Subaru Liberty wagon Manual is a 4WD as it has high and low range, selectable by the driver?

 

[RedPanda]

You are confusing convential cars with a raised platform that may or may not have AWD with vehicles based on a more traditional ladder frame with 4WD. They are two different things.

AWD and 4WD are definitely two different things but both are SUVs (have off-road capability). People movers by definition do not have off-road capability.
I may be confused but then the whole car-industry may also be. I just couldn't find any car website or car company who would class CX9 as a people mover.

Lets simplify this:

A 4WD is a vehicle with high / low range capabilities, transfer case, mechanical 4WD capabilities, etc. Examples are Prado, Landcruiser, Jeep, etc.

Agree.

An SUV is a vehicle with part time all wheel drive (AWD) which is very different to 4WD. These are electronically controlled and AWD only activates when the system senses slip in the front wheels. It is not and cannot be configured as a permanent 4WD system. Examples are Mazda CX9, Kluger, etc.

Agree.

People movers are generally 2WD but can be AWD which is where the line is blurred between a people mover / AWD / SUV. But again AWD is really false advertising because 99% of the time they are only FWD.

Disagree. People Movers by definition are simple people movers and have no off-road capability so they cannot be AWD. If a car is AWD, it is not a people mover but a SUV.

We had one of the first 1999 KIA Carnivals, with the (now) known infamous engine failure problem, bought new. The engine failed at 6 years old/100000kms. Kia replaced the engine, no fuss, no hassle at their expense. I don't think Toyota or Ford would do that. Other than that, was fantastic for the 8 yrs we had it.

You are one of the lucky ones. The online forums are full of people who complain that Kia did not address the issue adequately.

 

[CHam]

So, a Subaru Liberty wagon Manual is a 4WD as it has high and low range, selectable by the driver?

Last time I checked (and I could be wrong as I don't generally take much notice of Subaru's) I don't think that Liberty's had a selectable high & low range gearbox.

Subaru's have always fitted into their own class - they fit between a 4WD and AWD and are called Permanent AWD vehicles.

 

[goonandtell]

Last time I checked (and I could be wrong as I don't generally take much notice of Subaru's) I don't think that Liberty's had a selectable high & low range gearbox.

Subaru's have always fitted into their own class - they fit between a 4WD and AWD and are called Permanent AWD vehicles.

just to mess with you i know at least the ones from the 90s and maybed 00s did in fact have a low range selector.

And i think subarus use the AWD as a feature rather than class definition.

 

[CHam]

just to mess with you i know at least the ones from the 90s and maybed 00s did in fact have a low range selector.

And i think subarus use the AWD as a feature rather than class definition.

You are right goonandtell - the early Subaru's did have a genuine 4WD system with high / low range, transfer case, etc. etc. The new versions are called Symmetrical All Wheel Drive - which is not necessarily the same as 4WD.

RedPanda -

Disagree. People Movers by definition are simple people movers and have no off-road capability so they cannot be AWD. If a car is AWD, it is not a people mover but a SUV.

If that was the case how do youy classify the CX-9?? In FWD guise is it a people mover? In AWD is it an SUV? Even though AWD is not really AWD but FWD with an ability to be AWD if needed?? And most AWD's really have no more off road capabilities than their FWD counterparts?

AWD has no relevance to SUV or off road capability (and AWD's have no real off road capability), and the term SUV (Sports Utility Vehicle) is simply a marketing term. I mean who really considers one of these vehicles "Sporty"? Also A Subaru Impreza is AWD but is not an SUV.

Therefore I think your attempt to differentiate people movers from SUV's is not as black and white as you claim....