Minor panic related to new legislation... help

Hi Sam

Not a reliable outcome there.........the vast majority will come back with case by case.

PRE Nccp many lenders would say no,I suspect that wont have improved

ta
rolf
 
All these issues can be mitigated for the right clients if you understand some traditional and proper risk assessment.

....

If someone is entering mat leave; do they have capacity to cover their expenses and meet their commitments without foreseen financial hardship - assess it correctly and you will be OK.

I disagree that it is always as simple as that. I am a 'casual' employee. This is a pain in the butt with the banks just in itself. Despite my 'casual' employment basically being the same as part time - with a few less hours a week. I have minimum working requirements for my job, and earn an hourly rate and a commission. Now add in maternity leave (entitle to 12months unpaid). The banks won't listen to me saying "I WILL go back in 6months". So they discount any pay I may get from my casual job.

The banks also refuse to allow me to include my baby bonus as income. It is a payment over 13 fortnights that amounts to about the same as my casual income I would recieve from work. But because it is only going to exist for 6mths they won't even consider it (and won't even consider considering it, before I actually recieve the first payment, regardless of the fact that I would be entitled to it from a certain point in a pregnancy whether they baby is born alive or still born).

Also, my family tax benefit actually increases when I am not working (because I don't have an income), but again the banks will not consider this until I am actually recieving that amount of money.

Overall, my personal REAL financial situation is actually slightly 'better' when I am on maternity leave then it is when I am working. :rolleyes: :eek:
But the banks look at me being pregnant as a liability instead.

On top of all this, the banks decide to allocate us the cost of an extra 'dependant' - (and I won't even get into how flawed I think the banks are in calculating how much each dependant costs, in my REAL experience, the more kids you have, the cheaper it actually becomes in terms of cost per head).


I have had to go through getting a mortgage twice while pregnant - but luckily that was before these new laws, and I was able to do so without meeting face to face with any brokers or bank managers, so they couldn't see the massive bump in front.



Now think of other women who may be pregnant, but who are choosing to put their baby up for adoption, or who are acting as surrogate mothers. Can you imagine the hoops these women would have to jump through to 'prove' that the baby isn't going to be a financial liability to them - if it is even possible to 'prove' such a thing, as under current laws, the woman carrying the baby WILL be the mother until such a point as the baby is actually born and the mother then signs over all rights to the child in question.

What about women who are newly married? Are the banks / brokers then going to enquire if they intend to have children in the next 1-3yrs? What about single mums on casual wages? What about 30-something newly divorced women with a job, three young children, a bit of cash, but no assets to her name? What about the young pregnant widow, with big deposit who needs maternity leave very shortly.

Women of childbearing age are going to be discriminated against. I have seen it happen in the workplace, I have experienced it myself in the workplace (by a female employer no less) - and that is with laws that are in place to try and protect against that kind of thing. These laws 'encourage' discrimination, so of course it is going to happen, it already was happening to a degree, now it's just going to make the situation even more pronounced.
 
Calm down ladies it is not just maternity leave it is all long periods of leave and it is not new policy it has been policy for ever - it is simply being enforced more rigorously.

Lots of people who go on long service leave don't return and lot's of women who go on maternity leave do not return within the period they originally intended to - that is reality not discrimination.
 
Calm down ladies it is not just maternity leave it is all long periods of leave and it is not new policy it has been policy for ever - it is simply being enforced more rigorously.

Lots of people who go on long service leave don't return and lot's of women who go on maternity leave do not return within the period they originally intended to - that is reality not discrimination.

:rolleyes:

And a lot of people who go on holidays don't return, and a lot of people who work in crappy jobs don't return....

And yet personally, everytime I've gone on maternity leave I've actually gone back 'earlier' then I intended. That is exactly why these 'blanket' assumptions are flawed.

My example was based on my personal experiences. It is discrimination. Not once did anyone ever ask my DH if he was going to take time off work to look after the kids. Even though an increasing number of fathers (in canberra here at least) ARE choosing to become SAHD's.

Truthfully, the banks are at more risk that I will quit my job in general, then me taking maternity leave. As I pointed out, I actually end up with MORE money when on maternity leave - the banks just refuse to accept it as income.

I also stated (if you actually read my post) that this happened BEFORE the introduction of the new laws. The thing was, I was able to omit certain details before, so long as I wasn't actually saying anything that was 'false' or fraudulant - but under these new laws, ommission makes you just as culpable as lying.

So now, my choices are be completely upfront (and predict what I need to make them aware off) about everything or be liable, but the problem is, who is determining just how upfront about everything I have to be. I'm not prgnant at the moment. Do I need to tell my bank when going for another loan that I intend to become pregnant again at some undefinable point in the future - it's not like I can predict exactly when this might happen (even while actively trying to get pregnant there is only a 22% chance each month of it happening), or do I only mention it when I am pregnant. If so at what stage of the pregnancy do I have to mention it - as sson as I know? after the 12-14 week mark (when miscarriage becomes less likely), after 20weeks when the morphology scan is conducted.

I have a close friend who has had numerous miscarriages, and three late term still births - she currently has no children: when does she need to tell the banks she is pregnant? Statistically speaking, she has more chance of misscarrying or having another stillborn, then of having a living dependant.


I never once said it was just maternity leave that would be discriminated against - it is just that I am more knowledgable on this particular issue, so I have used it to illustrate my point.
 
I've asked to go back to work early from my maternity leave. My employer asked in a roundabout way if I intended getting pregnant again as they 'didn't want to go in to bat for me' if I was going to go off pregnant again.

Just an example of what rugrat is talking about.

Yes ladies, on so many levels, it's still a mans' world.
 
there is discrimination in all areas of society. I live in a remote rural location - I can't get cheap broadband, garbage collection or a sealed road to drive on. My life expectancy is approx 10 years less than my city cousins and my education and career expectations are severely restricted - and I have great difficulty financing my home but.... it's my choice.

this is not discrimination it is prudential management
 
I've asked to go back to work early from my maternity leave. My employer asked in a roundabout way if I intended getting pregnant again as they 'didn't want to go in to bat for me' if I was going to go off pregnant again.

Just an example of what rugrat is talking about.

Yes ladies, on so many levels, it's still a mans' world.

My old boss (she has recently resigned) used to make comments about me being pregnant all the time, and then preface them with "Well, I'm not allowed to say..." Or "Not that I am doing this because you are pregnant and it creates more work for me". And when on maternity leave would harrass me to to come back early. And then when I came back, gave me crappy placements and times, tried to make it so I wouldn't have as manny hours (I am entitled to the hours I had before I left), relented on that, but then forced me to reduce my own hours by giving me placements on a temporary basis that she knew conflicted with my available work times and which she knew from the start I wouldn't be able to maintain (she was supposed to be finding me a different placement placement, but never came through). And then kept on making comments about how I had enough children now, and that I wouldn't need to take any more maternity leave.

there was nothing 'roundabout' with her attitudes towards pregnant staff (woman dominated industry). I thought about taking the issue further, but because of the company structure it would have just made things worse for me - she was pretty much my first and only point of contact and support with the company at large, and I didn't want to make a difficult situation even more difficult.
 
A brief synopsis of my situation:

2 x good incomes, wife just preggers with no.2, looking to trade up PPoR. To put ourselves in a good position to make cash offers on next PPoR we put our place on the market. Sold in 8 days (accepted offer yesterday) :rolleyes:

Wife goes on maternity leave in July (for 9 months) - we HAVE to buy our next place before July. We need both salaries for borrowing power and repayments but have plenty savings which will help tide us over her period of leave and we have my salary only.

Today my broker tells me that new legislation came into effect from 1st Jan that you have to declare if there is "anything in the future you know of that will affect your ability to make repayments" (or similar words)...

Will most lenders be OK with the fact that my wife will be having a temporary break from work, or are we in the ****?

:confused:

If you require both incomes (as they currently stand) to service, a bank will look at your future position and their legislative obligations and ask itself the question whether with the addition of a further dependent, a known period without an income and the potential of an unknown period with possibly reduced income, you can sustainability service the debt.

If servicing is even remotely tight today (sans child and reduced income), you can see why alarm bells might be going off.

Any of you brokers out there care to contact a few of your lenders and see how they will be interpreting this sort of situation?

If the bank were to grant you a loan and it were all to go pear-shaped, they would need to have evidence to support a defence against a complaint that they should never have lent you the money, which you will be sorely tempted to make irrespective of what you might be thinkinig today.

Hypothetically and noting we don't have any precedents yet, if one of my staff was to turn up all red-faced saying the Ombudsman/ASIC were questioning granting a loan to someone who disclosed a forthcoming birth, off the top of my head, here's the sort of stuff iwould dearly love to find in the file:

  • A detailed letter from the costumer that clearly sets out that they have a financial plan to handle the event including hospital costs;
  • sufficient savings to meet the income loss for a period of grater than 9 months (12 ideally) plus a buffer for contingencies; and
  • that they service based on the new addition to the family and part-time equivalent wages of She Who Is Currently With Child.

I would also be pleased as punch to see documented evidence of health insurance including confirmation the birth is covered, evidence the savings are locked down until the 2nd income is lost, and some confirmation the Mum is on maternity leave (i.e. hasn't resigned) and that the employer is of a size to provide confidence they will have job to got back to.
 
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there is discrimination in all areas of society. I live in a remote rural location - I can't get cheap broadband, garbage collection or a sealed road to drive on. My life expectancy is approx 10 years less than my city cousins and my education and career expectations are severely restricted - and I have great difficulty financing my home but.... it's my choice.

this is not discrimination it is prudential management

So, if something discriminates against enough people, it isn't discrimination??? :confused:

Or are you saying that it is discrimination, but it is alright to discriminate??? :confused:

Or is discrimination just a myth??? :confused:

Or do you believe the ends justify the means??? :confused:

Or have I missed something here - because you seem to flit between acknowledging discrimination does exist and denying all possibility of it, Either way though, the general gist seems to be that you don't car if it is discrimination; so ergo no-one else should be worried about it??? :rolleyes:

I understand 'risk' mitigation. I even understand why some people (employers, banks) choose to discriminate. But that doesn't mean that it is not discrimination. Nor does it mean it is fair or just or even a true indication of actual risk.


You are OK with them discriminating against you? fine. good on you.

Personally, I think it sucks. It has no true relevance on MY ability to repay a loan, and yet it DOES impact upon me, because I happen to sit right within a particular group they are discriminating against. I am deemed a higher risk, because I am a childbearing (albeit not pregnant at this particular point in time) female.

I am curious, are you one of those people that believe that it is perfectly acceptable (and not discrimination) to stop the 35yr old male at the airport and conduct a strip search because he is wearing a turban?

Or maybe you think it is perfectly acceptable for a security guard to follow a perfectly respectable person around a shop, because he has black skin?
 
there is discrimination in all areas of society. I live in a remote rural location - I can't get cheap broadband, garbage collection or a sealed road to drive on. My life expectancy is approx 10 years less than my city cousins and my education and career expectations are severely restricted - and I have great difficulty financing my home but.... it's my choice.

this is not discrimination it is prudential management

I would say it's a little easier for you to change your locale, than it would be for rugrat to change her gender...
 
there is discrimination in all areas of society. I live in a remote rural location - I can't get cheap broadband, garbage collection or a sealed road to drive on. My life expectancy is approx 10 years less than my city cousins and my education and career expectations are severely restricted - and I have great difficulty financing my home but.... it's my choice.

this is not discrimination it is prudential management


A very sensible and logical stance peaches....I think it's called reality.


Good luck to you though peaches....you seem like a very level headed sensible chap.
 
It is my right to decide where I live just as it was our right to decide when to start a family.... choice is involved.

A blind person has no choice about being blind to deny them a loan because they can't read the fine print would be discrimination.
 
Hopothetical...I'm 8 months pregnant and get on a bus which is full. Should someone able bodied stand up and offer me a seat? Or, because it is MY choice to start a family, should I inflict the discomfort of having to stand on a bus to someone who has chosen not to have a baby? Why is my choice or their choice more important when it comes to having a seat?

Obviously this hypothecial could be put into less or much more serious scenarios. Thoughts? (yes it's off topic).
 
Obviously this hypothecial could be put into less or much more serious scenarios. Thoughts? (yes it's off topic).

Yes I do agree it is off the topic - don't confuse manners with discrimination.

If you take the earlier posts on lenders discriminatory behavior to its logical conclusion then every rejected applicant could claim discrimination on one point or another and often do, we regularly hear "this is discrimination against the self employed" or "discrimination against young people" or "non-residents"....

I repeat it is not discrimination it is prudential management - something the banks get criticized for when they get it wrong ie: the sub-prime crises when patently they did not discriminate enough.
 
I would also be pleased as punch to see documented evidence of health insurance including confirmation the birth is covered, evidence the savings are locked down until the 2nd income is lost, and some confirmation the Mum is on maternity leave (i.e. hasn't resigned) and that the employer is of a size to provide confidence they will have job to got back to.

Perhaps you'd be more pleased if:
1. The wife brought you in a certificate of sterilization, so that you could be confident that she would never again fall pregnant during the course of the loan repayment period.
2. Or the results of the husband's fertility test showing that he could never father a child.
3. Or if the wife was pregnant, the results a chromosome test on the unborn baby to prove it did not have Down's Syndrome or some other genetic defect that would be a financial drain on the family
.........where does this all stop? :confused:
 
I think you guys ask too many questions. No way known am I going to ask a girl if she's pregnant, short of seeing the head pop out.

And if she was tempted to tell me, I would counsel her on that before she opened her mouth.

30 year contract.

9 month pregnancy.

I will gladly go to court to have this discussion.

Especially when I bring up the anti discrimation defence; what the hell was I supposed to do?
 
Yes that was going to be my point about our situation - 30yr mortgage, 6months without one salary

No matter who you are, if you take on a mortgage for any property without a cash buffer of at least 3 - 6 months repayments then youre an idiot...
 
.........where does this all stop? :confused:


It stopped before it even got started.


Banks don't play into the hands of people who ask silly questions like that, and the previous ones before it. They have the moolah - they ask the questions.


You simply fill in the forms, provide as much written evidence supporting your finance application as possible, and the black room boys decide either YES or NO.


They aren't interested in playing silly little pedantic games dripping with human emotional morality. They don't have to grant your request, and the Borrower has no right to demand an explanation why they were rejected.
 
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