naturopaths, TCMs endanger lives

[on the move]

Just took my wife to a naturopath. He used this battery lead thingy and said my wife has a toxicity level of 3, out of 10. Then he said she need to do almost $2000 of b.s. tests before he can tell what is wrong with her. Each consultation cost $90 a pop. In Victoria a boy fell from the bike, went to see a GP who used a household drill to relief the pressure on the brain and saved his live. Just thinking if this boy instead went to see this phony naturopath or TCM, or may be someone with more serious illnesses such as cancer or heart diseases, they will risk their lives because of misdiagnosis/"mistreatments", I use treatment in very loose term. Sure there are some genuine good natural medicine practitioners, but there are many fly by night cowboys/cowgirls with dubious qualifications in the alternative health business !

 

[Rolf Latham]

Hiya

If you get run over by a bus, you ask the ambulance to take u to the nearest hospital...................not to your choice of medical doctor or alternative practitioner.

True, there are likely some issues with alterantives, as there are with normal western medicine.......here in Qld at the moment we have a high profile court case where we have a licensed surgeon accused of effectively contributing to peoples deaths.

Im a scientist by background, and have a reasonably ok BS detector. Many naturapthic solns have better outcomes than traditional western medicine, because they tend to attack the cause, rather than the symptom.

As with anything, if you dont like the advice offered, move on and try someone or something else.

ta
rolf

 

[weg]

Just took my wife to a naturopath. He used this battery lead thingy and said my wife has a toxicity level of 3, out of 10. Then he said she need to do almost $2000 of b.s. tests before he can tell what is wrong with her. Each consultation cost $90 a pop. In Victoria a boy fell from the bike, went to see a GP who used a household drill to relief the pressure on the brain and saved his live. Just thinking if this boy instead went to see these phony naturopaths or TCMs, or may be someone with more serious illnesses such as cancer or heart diseases, they will risk their lives because of "mistreatments", I use treatment in very loose term. A lot of ripoff merchants in the alternative health business !

So the battery lead thingy picks up a toxiciy first up but it takes 2K in tests to identify it... Hmmm....Sounds to me like it would probably pick up toxicity in anyone that walked through the door .

Personally I think conventional medicine has far more superior diagnostic tools to what a naturopath would ever have. Once diagnosed if unhappy with the treatment offered by traditional Drs. then you would have nothing to lose by seeing a naturopath.

 

[Aaron Sice]

now now, don't go tarring the WHOLE naturapthy industry with the same brush.

sounds like you saw someone who want to hook you up "the light machine", a tool that some applied kinesologists use - produces a light formation of your body (hard to explain, just accept that explanation or google it).

Why was she at a naturopath? wouldn't she have been better off seeing an Ayurvedic GP first for a referral after a hair folicle test, along with a basic blood test, will tell them, and you, more than most tests ever will.

no pill or test result wil fix everything. IMO no test is worth $2000, considering life saving tests such as MRIs, CTs, pap smears etc cost next to nil and SAVE thousands of lives a year, not just improve someone's quality of life.

 

[aw1]

the reason its "alternative" medicine is because it doesn't work. if it worked and had peer reviewed studies and trials to back it up it would just be medicine.

the only upside is psychological - you get a generally friendly person who gives you a long appointment and makes you feel like your issues are important to them, vs a busy doctor working 14 hours a day who has to prioritise an enormous amount of work and generally has you in for 15 minutes or less.

doctors and specialists will prescribe "natural" products as well (not that theyre any different from synthetic products if they're going to have any genuine mode of action) - where they have been proven to work (e.g. vitamin B2, magnesium, CoQ10 for migraine prevention).

unfortunately you can't convince people to be skeptics.

this is a great blog by a neurosurgeon who writes from a skeptical perspective and really knows how to argue his points with evidence.

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/

 

[Bill.L]

Hi all,

aw1,

the reason its "alternative" medicine is because it doesn't work. if it worked and had peer reviewed studies and trials to back it up it would just be medicine

Don't you find it remarkable that the only things that really work are patentable substances, while nothing in the natural world works and is just hokus pocus.

Peer reviewed studies and trials cost a lot of money, if a substance cannot be patented nobody will fund the study.

There are alternative medicines/natural products that work better than most medicines in there areas, yet there are not many doctors that tell their patients to use them, because every drug company goes out of their way to prove that they don't work, to shore up the use of the patented product.

It's good to be skeptical, just make sure the skepticism is evenly spread.

bye

 

[plusnq]

Hi all,

aw1,



Don't you find it remarkable that the only things that really work are patentable substances, while nothing in the natural world works and is just hokus pocus.

Peer reviewed studies and trials cost a lot of money, if a substance cannot be patented nobody will fund the study.

There are alternative medicines/natural products that work better than most medicines in there areas, yet there are not many doctors that tell their patients to use them, because every drug company goes out of their way to prove that they don't work, to shore up the use of the patented product.

It's good to be skeptical, just make sure the skepticism is evenly spread.

bye

Hi Bill

Perhaps because the active constituent amount can be controlled in a pharmaceutical medication whereas with a "natural" product the amount of active constituent is not able to controlled leading to over/under dosing. Most medicines are derived from "natural" products. Have a look at the large amounts of money that pharma companies are spending on seabed life analysis looking for new possible therapeutic components. The difference is that the dosage is controlled in a pharmaceutical product as opposed to eating a plateful of magic mushrooms

Cheers

Shane

 

[aw1]

Hi all,

aw1,

Don't you find it remarkable that the only things that really work are patentable substances, while nothing in the natural world works and is just hokus pocus.

I'm surprised someone pulled the conspiracy theory card so quickly. I think you'll find most drug companies continue to produce medications after their patents expire. They just charge less because they have to compete with generics. Hard to blame them for wanting to recoup billions of dollars spent in R&D (some of which never comes to fruition). Do you think the world's population of doctors are part of a conspiracy theory to discredit "natural" (what does that even mean?) medicines? Noone would blame you for being skeptical about a pharma-funded study of natural medicines (do you actually have references to this happening?).

You realise that Heparin for example is made from the mucosal tissue of pigs and cows? That doesn't seem to stop big pharma from manufacturing it.

Peer reviewed studies and trials cost a lot of money, if a substance cannot be patented nobody will fund the study.

So putting your work out for public criticism is expensive? Why is this?

It sounds as though you are agreeing that that the hallmark of natural practitioners is to use products that have no peer reviewed evidence, and have never been trialled in a double blind scenario because of the "cost".

It's good to be skeptical, just make sure the skepticism is evenly spread.

It is. Anyone, whether they are a medical professional, big pharma or an alternative quack, who makes bold claims about treatments and causes of disease should have evidence for their claims or it should be disregarded. It would also be nice if it had some sort of scientific plausibility as well (e.g. unlike homeopathy).

 

[Bill.L]

Hi all,

aw1,

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that there is a great deal of quackery in alternative medicine. However 'a lot' does not mean 'all'.

There are 'alternative medicines' that do have some studies showing great benefits. Just because you know there is some quackery does not mean that all alternatives don't work. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Even when studies are done on alternative medicines, the information about them rarely gets to doctors. They just don't hear about it. There is a massive amount of 'latest info' available to doctors, and the docs I know just don't have the time to be up with everything, especially if it is not in Lancet or the NEJM.

Do you really want to say that there is nothing in the natural world (read not patentable) that does not work??

I don't think there is a conspiracy, just pure business sense. If a competitor to your product (that had cost millions to bring to market) was better, I would do everything in my power to prove otherwise.

Your skepticism seems to be one way only, open your eyes.

bye

 

[on the move]

I am sure in some situations natural remedies & lifestyle choices work better then synthetic drugs, but the problem with the alternative health industry is you don't know who is real and who is there to make a quick buck. Many people are unsatisfied with the stop-watch GP medicine that we have in this country, go to any health store and it's likely full of customers.
Mind you my sister got a throat infection and couldn't talk at all, she was supposed to give a eulogy in my father's funeral in 3 days time. She went to see a TCM and he gave her some herbs and she could give the eulogy. So I guess my point is I wish the industry bodies weed out the unqualified/unethical practitioners. Few times I went to some TCMs with doctor this professor that on their business cards but after talking to them I suspect if they are experts in anything.

 

[Token Funder]

There are 'alternative medicines' that do have some studies showing great benefits.

References?

 

[our obsession]

Token Funder:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill.L

There are 'alternative medicines' that do have some studies showing great benefits.

References?

Our family likes to use naturotherapy/therapists to help educate us and build/develop as much wellness in our health/lives as possible.

We like western medicine for the things that it is particularly good at.

TF, you might be interested in fucoidan...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucoidan

Fucoidan is a sulfated polysaccharide (MW: average 20,000) found mainly in various species of brown seaweed such as kombu, limu moui, bladderwrack, wakame, mozuku, and hijiki (variant forms of fucoidan have also been found in animal species, including the sea cucumber).

Substantial pharmaceutical research has been done on fucoidan, focusing primarily on two distinct forms: F-fucoidan, which is >95% composed of sulfated esters of fucose, and U-fucoidan, which is approximately 20% glucuronic acid. As a consequence of this research, U-fucoidan and F-fucoidan are now being marketed as a nutraceutical and food supplement.[1][2]

A study [3] released in 2005 by Japanese researchers have indicated that F-fucoidan can induce apoptosis in human lymphoma cell lines; as well, French researchers showed in 2002 [4] that F-fucoidan can inhibit hyperplasia in rabbits.

A study at the Statens Serum Institute, in Copenhagen, showed that, after pre-treatment with Fucoidan, deaths of rats infected with meningitis increased. 21 out of 45 rats that had been given Fucoidan and then treated after infection with an antibiotic died; as compared with 5 deaths out of 29 for those had not been given Fucoidan and had been treated with only the antibiotic.[5]

Another clinical study to determine the effects of ingested Undaria-derived-fucoidan on hematopoietic stem cells was carried out at UTAS, Australia. Scientists found that there was a small increase in total numbers of CD34+ cells, and a profound increase, from 40% to 90% in the proportion of CD34+ cells that expressed CXCR4 when 75% Undaria fucoidan was ingested. A smaller increase was noted when Undaria containing 10% w/w fucoidan was ingested. The ability to mobilize HPCs with high levels of CXCR4 expression could be clinically valuable

That's just an intro from wiki...here are some pubmed articles that provide interesting reading/research done:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&term=fucoidan%20liver&log$=related_query

Link wont go live, try going through here, and type in fucoidan:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/gquery

 

[Token Funder]

Token Funder:

Our family likes to use naturotherapy/therapists to help educate us and build/develop as much wellness in our health/lives as possible.

We like western medicine for the things that it is particularly good at.

TF, you might be interested in fucoidan...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucoidan



That's just an intro from wiki...here are some pubmed articles that provide interesting reading/research done:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&term=fucoidan%20liver&log$=related_query

Link wont go live, try going through here, and type in fucoidan:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/gquery

Fucoidan is a good example of science and evidence-based medican in practice.

Take the following extract from the Hayashi article in the European Journal of Pharmacology:

Fucoidan is a complex sulfated polysaccharide derived from Fucus vesiculosus, and it has a variety of biological activities, including anti-inflammatory, anti-viral, anti-liver failure, and anti-tumor activities ([Boisson-Vidal et al., 1995] and Saito et al., 2006 A. Saito, M. Yoneda, S. Yokohama, M. Okada, M. Haneda and K. Nakamura, Fucoidan prevents concanavalin A-induced liver injury through induction of endogenous IL-10 in mice, Hepatol. Res. 35 (2006), pp. 190–198. Abstract | View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (5)[Saito et al., 2006]). Furthermore, fucoidan interacts with transforming growth factor-β and has antioxidative properties ([Xue et al., 2001] and [McCaffrey et al., 1994]). These findings indicate that fucoidan may have anti-fibrotic activity, but whether fucoidan can attenuate hepatic fibrosis is unknown. Therefore, in the present study, we evaluated the effects of fucoidan on hepatic injury and fibrosis. We found that fucoidan may be useful as a novel type of anti-fibrotic agent

Science in practice

Contrast with our friends in the alternative therapies caper:


It's Magic I Tells Ya

If you look past all the marketing material, broad statements and misleading rubbish, what do we find tucked away right at the bottom of the website disclosures (way down at the bottom...after their privacy disclosures and trademark notices) and pretty well hidden from view:

Material provided by The Limu Company, LLC is intended for educational and informational purposes only. The Limu Company, LLC is not engaged in rendering medical advice, and any information provided is not a substitute for professional medical opinion.

Original Limu™ is a food product, not a drug and has not been evaluated by the FDA. Original Limu™ is not intended to diagnose, cure, prevent or treat any illness or disease

If you've read this far...we just want to point out it we're making stuff up

All Science So Far!

 

[on the move]

The list of tests :
General toxicity & inflammation assessment
Liver Phase Function, Malabsorption Assessment
Meridian energy assessment
Miasm
Neurotransmitter analysis
Toxicity penetration
Hair tissue mineral analysis
Hormone test
Adrenocortex stress & sleep profile
Kyptopyrroles
Amino acid profile
Candida test
Heliobacter pylori igi test
Celiac test
Cholesterol
Glucose
Blood type test
Antioxident test
Gut toxicity test
Heavy metal test
Comprehensive urine test
Vitamin C test
Zinc test
Iridology
Comprehensive pgysical examination
Allergy & sensitivty test
Biomeridian complete organ & body system scan
All these tests recommended by the qualified & registered naturopath on first visit. I am sure there are also regular doctors who "overservice" (fraud & kickback ?!).

 

[Bill.L]

Hi all,

TF,

References?

no problems, try Coenzyme Q10, a natural substance in the mitochondria. It has been promoted by the 'alternative health' industry for years, and shunned by doctors and pharmeceutical companies for just as long.

For some recent stuff..

http://www.icqa.org/newsletter/recentpub.html

I particularly like...

Makhija N, Sendasgupta C, Kiran U, Lakshmy R, Hote MP, Choudhary SK, Airan B, Abraham R. The Role of Oral Coenzyme Q10 in Patients Undergoing Coronary Artery Bypass Graft Surgery. J Cardiothorac Vasc Anesth. 2008 Jun 5. [Epub ahead of print]
A group of patients undergoing coronary artery bypass surgery were treated with CoQ10, starting 7-10 days pre-operatively (150-180mg/day) until the morning of surgery. A corresponding group received placebo. The CoQ10 treated group had significantly fewer reperfusion arrhythmias, lower total inotropic requirement, mediastinal drainage blood requirement, and shorter hospitalization compared to the control group.

Molyneux SL, Florkowski CM, George PM, Pilbrow AP, Frampton CM, Lever M, Richards AM. Coenzyme Q10. An independent predictor of mortality in chronic heart failure.
J Am Coll Cardiol. 2008 Vol 52, No.18, [Epub ahead of print]
This is the first observational study where CoQ10 plasma levels were related to the outcome of heart failure. Multivariable analysis indicated that lower CoQ10 and lower CoQ10/lipid ratio predicted poorer survival. Moreover CoQ10 was an independent predictor of survival and the strength of association between CoQ10 and mortality was greater than that observed for NT-proBNP. The authors conclude that “it is therefore plausible that CoQ10 deficiency might be an important pathogenetic mechanism associated with worse outcomes in chronic heart failure”.

bye

 

[aw1]

no problems, try Coenzyme Q10, a natural substance in the mitochondria. It has been promoted by the 'alternative health' industry for years, and shunned by doctors and pharmeceutical companies for just as long.

You can't see the obvious contradiction in your own post?

Shunned by doctors?
and you then go on to post references to it by cardiology journals.

The difference between doctors and unqualified whackos is they use drugs like Coenzyme Q10 (yes, its a drug, whether you call it "natural" or not) when they are shown to be effective for a particular condition not as a cure all for lots of vague subjective complaints.

I'm surprised you gave this particular example when I had just told you earlier that it is regularly suggested by neurologists for migraine prevention (along with magnesium and vitamin b2).

The distrust of modern medicine is getting ridiculous. Something that has more than doubled our life expectancy (most of us would not be here without antibotics - no wait - its made from natural substances, where's the big pharma conspiracy!!!). What does it take to call yourself a naturopath? To call yourself a general practitioner (GP) takes 11-14 years of hard slog and you already need to be the cream of the crop before you even get into med school.

 

[Token Funder]

You can't see the obvious contradiction in your own post?

Shunned by doctors?
and you then go on to post references to it by cardiology journals.

The difference between doctors and unqualified whackos is they use drugs like Coenzyme Q10 (yes, its a drug, whether you call it "natural" or not) when they are shown to be effective for a particular condition not as a cure all for lots of vague subjective complaints.

I'm surprised you gave this particular example when I had just told you earlier that it is regularly suggested by neurologists for migraine prevention (along with magnesium and vitamin b2).

The distrust of modern medicine is getting ridiculous. Something that has more than doubled our life expectancy (most of us would not be here without antibotics - no wait - its made from natural substances, where's the big pharma conspiracy!!!). What does it take to call yourself a naturopath? To call yourself a general practitioner (GP) takes 11-14 years of hard slog and you already need to be the cream of the crop before you even get into med school.

Jeez beat me to it.

 

[Bill.L]

Hi all,

Shunned by doctors?
and you then go on to post references to it by cardiology journals.

Yes,that is exactly right. Studies showing benefits for Q10 have been in medical publications for years, but most doctors still don't know about it. The reason being they get most of their information from the drug company salesperson who visits the practice, or the latest seminar/week-end course organised by a drug company. Q10 is only mentioned in the negative.

8 years ago, I was having discussion with the secretary of the International Heart Research Association and he was lamenting about how difficult is was to get cardiologists to recommend using Q10, despite the obvious benefits.

It took me quite long time to convince my own doctor that Q10 was good. I showed him many studies, eventually he decided it was OK, started taking it himself, and started to recommend it to some of his patients. ( I should add that he is a friend of mine as well as my doctor). He was eventually told to stop the Q10 recommendations by the partners in his practice because it was too 'alternative' for their conservative business. (plus of course they didn't know about it, and were risking bonuses according to the drug company reps)

The reality of what is in medical journals, is that there is mountain of new information every week and no doctor can keep up with it all. They only get the info when it is brought to their attention. They do not speak to anyone who will bring Q10 to their attention.

bye

 

[our obsession]

TF, I'm not familiar with The Limu Company.

 

[Token Funder]

Q10 is only mentioned in the negative.

I had a look around an couldn't find the consipiracy against Q10. Have the Illuminati removed the evidence