Negative gearing costs other taxpayers $13b

Capital gains are not a given, the whole idea of the CGT concession is to compensate for the risk otherwise the risk reward ratio doesnt add up, dont forget the investor is already providing 100% of the capital and assuming 100% of the risk.

I don't think this is right? I thought the main motivator was it was just getting too difficult working out the cost bases, so they said stuff it forget all that and just halve the nominal cap gain. plus it was good middle class welfare under howard.

the problem is the distortion it causes in the economy. there is no good reason to halve it.
 
Everybody is talking about negative geared properties.

But the headline is about negative gearied properties.

smh.jpg

Oh, my bad.

In that case, get rid of Negative Gearied Properties.

Booooo.
 
THere are 'non commercial losses' rules that restrict some losses from business being applied against other income. Basically if you have a relatively low turnover and dont meet other tests then your business losses are carried forward. This doesnt apply to rental properties but the concept of restricting the use of losses is nothing new.

With the number of IP owners and our overall love for all things property it would be a brave government who would look at changing the negative gearing rules.
 
This is actually a great point. The argument could be made that most businesses are PTY LTD whereas property investors are sole traders, but sole traders can also write off self employed losses against any PAYG income they might earn.

They can under some circumstances but not all. They introduced rules to combat those tax avoidance shenanigans used by professionals and their "hobby farms". Essentially there is a limit to how long a business can remain unprofitable and other conditions that need to be satisfied.
 
I have said this before, but I believe that negative gearing should be quarantined against future income, where the current venture is loss making.

That would cover all assets and work much like CG. Losses accumulate until offset against a future gain across all asset types.

If the venture makes no profit whilst holding, the NG costs roll over into the CG calculation to reduce CGT when the asset is sold and sits there for a future CG if there is a surplus.

But ultimately, people/business should only be investing to make a profit.

I daresay that the majority of investors (the ones with 1/2 properties) are purely just investing to reduce their tax.
 
correct. time to get the chop... salaries don't egt adjusted for CPI

It is becoming clearer almost by the hour that the time to pay up for the excesses of the past however many years has now arrived. The poor can't pay so won't. leaves the middle and the upper class and it's a hefty bill.

Salaries do get adjusted. Not directly with inflation. Minimum wages take inflation into account.
 
I wonder if this this headline loss figure takes into account the double subsidy that low income renters get from centrelink?

This always seemed a bit odd to me, that the landlord could claim negative gearing, and the tenant can claim rent assisstance. that little bar graph property spruikers use, if done for the government, would show they are gigantic patsies!! lol
 
Salaries do get adjusted. Not directly with inflation. Minimum wages take inflation into account.

yeh but everything gets adjusted for inflation, right own to the price of eggs. point being... gains on capital prices that are realised are mostly inflation
 
When even good public policy suggestions such as the NDIS are being resisted, the issue is not the message, its the messenger. What is the opposite of the golden touch? Poo touch?!

As for comments about cost, the Productivity Commission have made the clear point that the cost of doing nothing will be more than pursuing the NDIS option. In fact it is the financially prudent option.

The PC suggest the best way to fund the scheme is through consolidated revenue, but as a second option a levy called the NDI Premium which is added to the marginal tax rates. Why wouldn't the government just follow the learned advice of the PC? Mmm, poo touch!
 
When even good public policy suggestions such as the NDIS are being resisted, the issue is not the message, its the messenger. What is the opposite of the golden touch? Poo touch?!

As for comments about cost, the Productivity Commission have made the clear point that the cost of doing nothing will be more than pursuing the NDIS option. In fact it is the financially prudent option.

The PC suggest the best way to fund the scheme is through consolidated revenue, but as a second option a levy called the NDI Premium which is added to the marginal tax rates. Why wouldn't the government just follow the learned advice of the PC? Mmm, poo touch!

what an inequitable and bureacratic monster be in the making here... if it is so important to everyone, just say everyone has a minimum tax bill of $1000 to start with. It is simply not fair to keep piling everything onto marginal rates. When everyone has a bill in front of them in black and white and it is shared out fairly we can then see what public sentiment towards this is. Bury it in fluffy rubbish like "the averga person - yawn - marginal levy whatevr wil only be $1 a day".. cool $1, that's nothing.
 
When even good public policy suggestions such as the NDIS are being resisted, the issue is not the message, its the messenger. What is the opposite of the golden touch? Poo touch?!

As for comments about cost, the Productivity Commission have made the clear point that the cost of doing nothing will be more than pursuing the NDIS option. In fact it is the financially prudent option.

The PC suggest the best way to fund the scheme is through consolidated revenue, but as a second option a levy called the NDI Premium which is added to the marginal tax rates. Why wouldn't the government just follow the learned advice of the PC? Mmm, poo touch!

I think it's because they need to use this as an election issue and answer suspicions that it's not funded.
This will also force the Liberals to propose how they would fund it or whether they would abandon it. In the unlikely event the Libs do say NO then there will be an opportunity to attract votes.
Vote Gillard and we have a NDIS
Abbott drowns puppies so don't vote for him. ;)
 
abolish it!

then my rents go up and i don't get audited on every tax return.

win, win, i say....

oh wait - but then there's the battlers....

"my rent went up because the govt took away my landlord's incentive to keep rent down".

sorry, that should read

"my greedy landlord doubled my rent".
 
abolishing it could cause it to go either way though
property prices to go down, with all the landlords selling as they cant hold the loss
or rents to go up if all investors held onto there properties and then no one would be able to buy and build as they can only just afford to rent so cant save a deposit to buy (isnt that why most strugging families rent that want to buy? its not that they couldnt service a loan they just cant save a deposit?)
 
1.. do we really believe everything printed in the media.

2. If ng was abolished, how will this impact on the NRAS scheme, considering you could possibly neutrally gear the property and then get a extra $10K back after your tax is done. Would the government want to get rid of this scheme...

As NRAS is specifically aimed at housing low income earners, perhaps instead of totally abolishing NG all together the governement may make it easier to make a existing property a NRAS in order to keep rental affordability down. However with the NRAS scheme as it is, it is also promoting more buildings to be built and therefore employing people in the building industry so i doubt they would do this.

If NG was abolished then how many NG NRAS properties would not get sold, which leaves this scheme failing.
 
Over the past few years NG has been watered down for many.

As marginal rates have dropped and cutoffs for the higher brackets has risen, negative gearing has not been as beneficial to middle income earners as it used to be.
 
with all the landlords selling as they cant hold the loss

BUT ... the properties that are running at a loss are more than likely NOT to be the type of properties someone who is a serial renter can afford.

Would a landlord hold a $300k unit that is returning $350/wk? - probably

Would a landlord hold a $1.5mil property that is returning $700/wk? - possibly not - but who (who being someone now displace from their rental) is going to buy?
 
...with all the landlords selling as they cant hold the loss...

I've heard this sentiment here and on other forums a fair bit over the last couple of days and I call BS.

For the vast majority of property investors who NG, the cash cost of removal would not bankrupt them, or cause them to have to sell.

Say they were $5k out of pocket per year on a $300k investment property, before tax. Negative gearing benfit reduces that to $3.2k. remove that benefit and they're out of pocket an extra $30 ish per week. We also assume they've done some DD, and they expect the property to appreciate in vale, or the rent to increase.

Who of us here would say "Phew... $30 per week extra on that property that's going to make me a bunch of capital gains, I'd better sell it, and I'd better drop the price way less than I paid so I can sell it fast"?

If the $30 was really going to kill you, you'd drink less coffee or have one less take out dinner a week for a couple of months unitl your next pay rise or rent rise or whatever. It may delay your next pruchase, or change your next criteria somewhat, but you're not going to be selling it at bargain prices.
 
1.. do we really believe everything printed in the media.

2. If ng was abolished, how will this impact on the NRAS scheme, considering you could possibly neutrally gear the property and then get a extra $10K back after your tax is done. Would the government want to get rid of this scheme...

As NRAS is specifically aimed at housing low income earners, perhaps instead of totally abolishing NG all together the governement may make it easier to make a existing property a NRAS in order to keep rental affordability down. However with the NRAS scheme as it is, it is also promoting more buildings to be built and therefore employing people in the building industry so i doubt they would do this.

If NG was abolished then how many NG NRAS properties would not get sold, which leaves this scheme failing.



How will it impact? Well, first everyone needs to understand that the NRAS incentive has nothing to do with tax offsets claimed on losses associated with owning an investment property. It's a separate tax incentive paid via a Refundable Tax Offset and a Non Assessable Non Exempt Cash incentive. Whilst the Federal Component ( The Refundable Tax Offset) is certainly paid to an investor as part of their annual ATO refund, it is a separate piece. It is added on to the ATO refund that is currently paid to an investor as a result of claiming deductible losses - but it is paid in addition to those refundable amounts, not as part of those amounts....

That being said, let's look at the scenario you have proposed, where neg gearing legislation is amended, and no longer allows investors to claim any losses associated with owning their INV property.

If you were to consider the impact of neg gearing being removed on a NON NRAS property valued at say 400K, assuming 105% gearing ( 420K of debt) @ 5.5% (whether that is done via cross collateralisation, or by drawing 15%, 20% or 25% from equity and then funding the remaining 80%, 85% or 90% against the INV property ) that investor would be required to cover interest costs of $23,100 per year plus ownership costs (lets assume 5K per year) for a total commitment of $28,100 per year. If they are getting a 5%ish yield of say, $400 per week, that would equate to $20,800 per year. Such an investor would end up with a negative cash flow (loss) of $7300 per year, with none of that being refunded through the ATO. No tax offsets would be allowed for that loss or for depreciation, so that investors bottom line would be an $7300 net cash flow loss. And with slightly higher rates the story would be worse than that.

That same property, approved under NRAS, and carrying the same debt level and similar ownership costs ( lets add $1000 to cover the "extra" NRAS costs of NRAS admin and higher Property Management) would cost an investor $29,100 to hold for a year instead of $28,100. Rental income would be 20% less ($16640) resulting in a cash flow loss of $12,460. If none of that was deductible , the investor would still be entitled to a Tax Free Refundable Tax Offset and NANE Cash gift totaling $9981 under NRAS, reducing their "loss " to $2479. So that investors cash flow would end up $4821 better off than the investor who purchased without NRAS.( he or she is losing $7300- see above) And the story for the NRAS investor would only get better, as the NRAS incentive increases in line with rental CPI annually (5.69% average increase since inception in 08/9 financial year, FYI) so he or she could reasonably assume they would reach CF+ status within 4 years or so.

So the impact? I think people would see just how sensible it is to carry at least one NRAS approved property in a portfolio. The structure under which the incentive is paid provides significant insurance/ protection against any changes to NG laws. We already know that under current neg gearing legislation NRAS cash flow significantly outperforms non NRAS in every way mathematically ( because you DO get to claim the 20% larger deductible loss AND still get a CF+, Tax Free outcome) Now we've just seen how NRAS also outperforms traditional investment property strategies in the event NG laws are amended or removed.


But just to anticipate the naysayers- lets do the same modeling for a 400K property only geared to 70% LVR, with NG removed from the equation.

Debt is now $300K @ 5.5% (280K plus 20K for stamps, legals etc) instead of 420K ( 20K for stamps, legals etc) - so repayments= $16500
Other Costs - $5000
Total Costs $21,500
Rental Income remains $400 per week, so $20,800
This investor would end up $700 cash flow negative... so basically pretty close to neutral. Any upward adjustment to interest rates would put them in a worse position.

Same property under NRAS...
Repayments remain $16500
Costs $6000 ( Ive allowed 1K extra, just like I did above)
Total Costs = $22500
Income is 20% less - 320 per week = $16,640
Cash Flow Loss is greater = $5,860
NRAS = $9981 Tax Free
Net Cash Flow = CF+ $4121 Tax Free. Better Off by $4821! Just like above

So the removal of NG may be the greatest thing that could happen to NRAS. It would crystalise for many investors, just how flawed a traditional "run it at a loss and hold for growth" strategy can be... because that strategy relies so heavily on a tax friendly environment AND strong capital growth just to get ahead, and it drains cash flow from you along the way, which you could be redeploying towards debt reduction on your PPOR, creating additional equity with which you can purchase additional properties even sooner. NRAS makes you tax free money without needing either NG or Growth. The numbers Ive just shown you only confirm that fact.

But dont get me wrong, it's better with NG being included also :) Just making the point that it covers all bases under all scenarios you have proposed.
 
what an inequitable and bureacratic monster be in the making here... if it is so important to everyone, just say everyone has a minimum tax bill of $1000 to start with. It is simply not fair to keep piling everything onto marginal rates. When everyone has a bill in front of them in black and white and it is shared out fairly we can then see what public sentiment towards this is. Bury it in fluffy rubbish like "the averga person - yawn - marginal levy whatevr wil only be $1 a day".. cool $1, that's nothing.
The trouble with saying $1 is nothing is that a very large number of people have too much week at the end of their money, too many folk are not earning all that much.

We keep being told we all are earning enough, but it doesn't take a lot of seriously high incomes to dramatically skew what people call the "average" wage in an upwards direction.

Sadly for a very large section of Aus society, the reality is that $365 per year is an important amount of money.
 
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