On the hunt again

We're still nailing that number down Troggy....somewhere in the 12 to 12.5% region.

Wow - thats both a very high net yield, and also a very large expense to income ratio. I assume its an old Centro fund asset?


If we manage to hire someone competent and thorough to babysit, the ongoing expenses (and headaches) will diminish dramatically. Currently we have a fat lazy whinger out there (typically Australian I am finding) who is lucky to even lean on her mop currently being paid 85K pa. She does nothing and, along with her husband have been asking us to reduce their workload and are seeking a pay-rise up to 130K pa. We gave notice to run them off today.

Thats the typical Australian mentality Dazz. And I bet she bitches about how lucky you have been and how greedy you are, and how her life is so unfair!
 
If we manage to hire someone competent and thorough to babysit, the ongoing expenses (and headaches) will diminish dramatically. Currently we have a fat lazy whinger out there (typically Australian I am finding) who is lucky to even lean on her mop currently being paid 85K pa. She does nothing and, along with her husband have been asking us to reduce their workload and are seeking a pay-rise up to 130K pa. We gave notice to run them off today.

Anyone in gaga internet land want a job ??


Yey - I'm getting a cleaning lady

Some options here :D including Perth, Adelaide and even Sydney

$25 an hour. Not bad! :)

If that's not bad what is bad :confused:.

My cleaner raised her rates not long ago to $20 (after paying her $13 per hour for years :eek:).

We just stopped using ours. Cost $80 for two people for 2.5 hours. Good for a break but they never did a job as good as us.

I've had one for ages who does a 3 hrs a week for ~$50.
I also have someone to cut the grass/edges etc about once a mth for $30
And I get someone to do odd jobs around the place for a few bux.

Biggles, if some SOB is gonna rip out a rib from me and make something out of it, it may as well clean up the house :p
 
thanks for the updates Dazz.
At the moment i am happy as larry in share land, but there will come a time when i will want to switch to commercial.

Your historical posts will provide a repertore of knowledge. Its funny because often people want the latest to 'opportunity' data, when it actual fact, its the process thats more important.

thanks again.
 
Very interesting stuff Dazz.
What you tackle is way out of my comfort zone, but I admire what you do.

When we bought our first 11 unit apt building we found the same with the insurance. The seller wasn't required to insure half of what our lenders do, thus making the bill a lot more expensive.

Now when we ask for a quote from an insurance company, and they say "it might be expensive" I never bat an eye anymore. It is all relative, I guess.
 
What you tackle is way out of my comfort zone

Hi kathryn,

Obviously one needs to built up your confidences with prior successess before tackling a project like this, all the while continually getting out of your comfort zone and expanding your 'limitations'.

We wouldn't of been able to tackle this say 2 years ago, but the lessons learnt memory bank is continually added to, and with the help of a good finance broker, the dosh is there to do the deal.

Once you own the thing, I find that the large stamp duty you've paid to enter the deal is enough motivation to keep you going. It's not like you can zip in and out of these things unscathed by the taxman.

No doubt in 5 years time, this one will feel like a tiddler and we'll have moved onto something else. It just seemed like a screaming bargain, and like a big lump of cash just lying on the street begging me to bend down and pick it up, I just couldn't walk past.
 
Hi Dazz

learning from this thread in a big way and really appreciate you posting. Obviously transactions like this massively swamp the small time resi deals I get into but do you mind commenting on difficulties of getting finance to keep going with purchases this size?

I'm guessing banks are willing to lend 60-75/80% max so do you tap into the equity of your previous purchases, use excess Y (from your portfolio) for serviceability purposes should sh** hit the fan eg tenants default, economic turndowns etc, and ensure that every deal you get into as it gets larger and larger, results in net yield being well over existing fixed/variable interest rates.

I am simplifying things for sure but is that the basic premise? I'm enamoured by the way you seem to keep going without any other Y apart from the portfolio (assumption)....gives hope to an above average but still bit player like myself that provided the deals are great, one can keep buying without working, owning a business or undertaking full scale re-development of the properties.
 
Good questions.


The key to finance is to have a great broker. Unfortunately I don't. Mine is one of those dodgy Qld boys with too much smoke and way too many mirrors. Nahhh...if you're reading this - you know who you are you little legend you....

65% LVR was all the Bank would lend us.

The Bank made us stump up over 3m in cash as hurt money for this property....so yes, we know we are alive after that little circus.

I do this stuff full time, so no leaning on a job income. This is my job, arguing with Banks, arguing with Sellers, arguing with their lawyers, arguing with my lawyers, arguing with Bank lawyers, arguing with Tenant's lawyers.....sure beats sitting there being a numpty engineer.

Yes - you've pretty much got it - purchase property that puts money in your pocket and you can keep doing that ad nauseum.
 
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Yes - you've pretty much got it - purchase property that puts money in your pocket and you can keep doing that ad nauseum.

Well that's the kicker for me.

Everytime I read your posts, my RE conquests seem more and more insignificant. Really need to think where to from here bc I'm at the crossroads now on bolstering my portfolio and I can either venture into CIP/similar or keep doing what I'm doing with slow burn, predictable results. You're definitely doing something right and nothing to gain from posting your experiences, so hats off to u.
 
Hi Dazz, inspiring stuff!

Could you kindly share with us the type of due dilligence you did prior to purchase e.g. retail catchment, turnover growth, vacancy risk

It would be very interesting to learn how to assess a retail investment of this size and why you came to the conclusion rents will keep growing

Many thanks
T
 
Thanks (again, I'm sure), Dazz, for the insights into the dealings.

I thought I only got sweaty palms thinking about high heights, but I just noticed I have sweaty palms right now!

I'm still doing the 'numpty engineer' gig. Resi portfolio will take some time for growth to provide the equity for the next reasonable purchase; commercial sounds like the path. Lots to learn. Thanks for sharing.

Best wishes.
 
6 months on.....

Well, it's been nearly a year since we spotted this shopping centre, and just on six months of owning it. What an experience.....lessons learnt so far ;


Everyone who owes us money does everything in their power to either minimise it or drag it out as long as possible


Everyone who we owe money to demands that the bill be paid in full and straight away


Like residential property but on steroids, all of the Tenants are completely useless and won't lift a finger if they aren't forced to.


The Lease wording is completely irrelevant, as the retail legislation completely runs roughshod over the Lease. Currently the legislation is grossly in favour of the Tenant, and new stuff is coming out to strip away further Landlords rights and hand more rights to the Tenants. Get me outta here !!!


We've been rebuffed twice now by long standing retail Tenants, who have signed the Lease written by a very large shopping centre owner, knowing full well they don't have to comply with any of it as it contravenes the legislation. Tenants are a protected species - unlike in my more familiar Industrial and Commercial.


Four Tenants have just upped and left, gouging a rather large hole in the cashflows.....including ;

3rd biggest Tenant with a Lease out to mid 2020 with Guarantees - gone and the poncy lawyers tell me there is nothing I can do. Started the 15 yr Lease in 2005 and only paid the previous landlord rent once in 4-1/2 years...staggeringly bad business folk.

5th biggest Tenant. Tenancy expired at the end of the year and he just left owing us for 2 months out of 2 months. He now dribbles a tiny amount to us every week. The interest bill on the debt is 3/4 what he dribbles to it.....he'll be paying that 2 months rent bill back to us over about 6 years the rate he is going....nothing we can do to speed it up.

8th biggest Tenant - had a 5 year Lease just started. He just shut the shop and buggered off. Lawyers are now writing him a Letter of Demand and Notice of Default for the 5th time, each one being ignored completely. He's a character (old rough tough Maori grandfather) who I am very used to dealing with out in the industrial blocks.....the type of character who is impervious to lawyer letters. Unlike an industrial situation, in this festering retail environment I am not allowed to speak a language that he understands.

11th biggest Tenant - small short term tenancy, initially established just for the Vendor to say "it's fully leased and ready for sale" expired and he didn't extend. He was charged only 1/3rd the rent level by the previous Landlord to get in there and give potential buyers the appearance it was full, and when approached with a proper rent level, just folded as expected.


Australian cleaners who had "worked" there for 22 years were sacked after just 4 months. They were paid massively, and it took us a while to realise....(OK, we're a bit slow on the uptake) they weren't doing any cleaning, had a huge attitude and were charging about triple what the going rate was. We now have cleaners who actually can drive a mop, aren't afraid to grab a broom and move around with it, who don't swan about thinking they own the joint and are more than happy with payrates less than half of what was being paid (still well above award rates).


Carpark lighting - yowtza - what an electrical head case.....big money being burned up over iddly fiddly little timers and switches. Trying to track down what goes where and what operates / trips / activates what is a nightmare when you haven't been involved with the installation.


Irrigation / bore stuff - Dad and I spent about 3 weeks trying to track down all of the intricacies of the system....once again, inheriting stuff is painful when no-one is there who knows what the system is. Had a hilarious time trying to change out a faulty ball valve which was right next to the big mains valve. Of course, the big mains valve needs a special handle to turn it off, which took $ 115 and 4 hours to track down. Once it was found, we discovered not only the ball valve we were trying to change was leaking, but so was the mains valve !!! Joy !! In his mid 70's, Dad joined me dripping wet as we got blasted trying to change out a valve against the full tide of a 4" line under mains pressure. We both now know what it's like having a hose down in prison like in the old days.


Leasing - hired the best leaisng agents in the hope that the vacant space, once renovated, would be up and running. Cannot flog this dog off until it's fully leased....the main job. Leasing agent, despite no less than 14 emails and 57 phone calls over the past 4 or 5 months hasn't responded. I'm up against the likes of Westfield and Centro's for their attention, and this little squeaky wheel can't be heard against the din of a Westfield / Coles leasing deal over 35,000 sqm of premium space leased out for 30 years with 4 x 10 yr options. Our little patch doesn't even rate a mention.


Builders - have had quotes for both repair and reno's. One guy came in and quoted $ 350 for a small job. I said righto. I then mentioned it was going to be an insurance job and would need an official written quote. He said "Righto, now, it is commercial, so I better double it, and cos it's insurance I'll triple it again." Paperwork quote came in at $ 1,959.00.


Council guy - we have plans in to Council to "re-furb" an area and get rid of a dead mall and convert to usable nett lettable area. Put those in mid Feb. They reckoned 30 day turn around decision. Found out they only have one planner. All others won't work for the money Council offer. Their only planner is treated like a golden goose. Our architect asked him for feedback on day 29. He said he hadn't even opened it up and was about to go on holidays. It's now day 74 and he still hasn't even looked at it, and there ain't nothing we can do about it.


Our strategy for handling the place is still up in the air. With 4 decent shops empty, the place looks bad and like a ghost town in parts....not good. A lot of steps need to be taken to hustle it up - my only job nowadays is to hustle people up.....we'll get there I suppose.


Cashflows are still healthy. Rents received have paid our mortgage, paid all our bills so far, paid decent distributions to all unit-holders every month, and managed to squirrel away enough excess cashflow to pay for the entire re-furb costs.


The plan of course is to get the refurb approved / done / leased and then flog off. We have the option of strata'ing up the shopping centre, with the intent of selling off the minor shops to pay off the debt and keep the supermarket owned outright for a healthy completely passive income of 50K / mnth.


Either that, or sell the lot and use the profits to pay down debts elsewhere in the portfolio and put the whole entire retail nightmare to bed and get back to my old traditional comm and industrial hunting grounds. We are yet to decide.


Anyway, 2 burglaries, 8 graffiti events, 1 slip up, multiple whingy complaints, 7 A/C complaints, 2 smashed doors, 3 smashed ceilings, 1 sexual assault, 3 Tenant runners, multiple cockroach infestations, 6 Tenants behind in payments, sacking my first ever employee, digging out grease traps, handling old syringes, sweating up on a roof in 60 deg midday heat......I reckon there has got to be an easier way of turning a buck. I reckon the CEO's of other organisations don't put up with this ****.


I just gotta get smarter.
 
good stuff

good to hear some detailed info and not just rainbows and butterflies! Passive income sometimes isn't so passive!

got a feeling when u walk away from this the hourly rate u will have been paid will still be very nice and for the lessons learned a worthwhile project

i like the sound of keeping the supermarket only, banks would probably like that as well for funding the next venture.
 
Thanks for sharing, Dazz.

Can I ask why your 3rd biggest tenant can apparently leave with so many years left on the lease, and guarantees in place, and you can't do anything about it? Is it because of the retail tenant laws, or is it because they're claiming there is, or has been, some breach of the lease? Or is it because they've structured themselves well?
 
good to hear some detailed info and not just rainbows and butterflies!

Yeah, there is only so much 'inflation in China' and 'employment rate in the US' I can handle before needing to talk about something real.


got a feeling when u walk away from this the hourly rate u will have been paid will still be very nice

Yeah, she's about quadruple the best money I can get as a professional consultant engineer, and right up there with a top flight QC, so not bad for sitting around most days in my tracky daks at home.


i like the sound of keeping the supermarket only, banks would probably like that as well for funding the next venture.

Yeah, everyone in the family seems to like that strata option. Sell the dross and keep the big slab of fillet.

The supermarket gives us no grief whatsoever, and are very business-like. The best thing about them is that the floor area is over 1,000 sqm.....and so they do not get the same protection under the legislation as the little squirrel Tenants....we get to treat them like our normal C&I Tenants.
 
Can I ask why your 3rd biggest tenant can apparently leave with so many years left on the lease, and guarantees in place, and you can't do anything about it? Is it because of the retail tenant laws, or is it because they're claiming there is, or has been, some breach of the lease? Or is it because they've structured themselves well?


It's complicated mate. As shopping centre purchase newbs, we got stiffed in the Attornment letter stage and didn't know it.....and weren't smart enough to know we got stiffed.


Long long long story short -

  • Tenant (man and wife in their personal names) moved in 2005
  • Previous Landlord buys in 2006
  • Previous Landlord kicks them out in mid-2008 after not receiving any rent for 2+ years.....WTF ??
  • Big court gnarly fight.
  • Settlement agreed.
  • Tenant forced to pay rent
  • Tenant forced to pay penalty interest
  • Tenant forced to pay legal costs (both theirs obviously and Landlords).
  • Tenant changes name to Trust, with wife only as Trustee
  • Husband still as a guarantor
  • Tenant forced to put up multi-million dollar horse stud as security (in hubby's name only)
  • Previous Landlord lets them back in mid-2008
  • Tenant sits there for another 2 years without paying rent.....WTF ???
  • We as newby schmucks come along
  • Previous Landlord takes months to divulge the truth of payments
  • We sign confidentiality agreements to see the Leases
  • We sign a Heads of Agreement
  • We sign a Sales Contract to Buy (Contract states Seller doesn't warrant Leases, amongst 456 other things they don't warrant. In fact, they warrant nothing).
  • Previous Landlord locks out Tenant again.
  • Months tick by.
  • Settlement occurs.
  • Previous Landlord fails to send Attornment letter to Tenants.
  • We are such clueless newbs that we don't realise.....it slipped through the cracks amongst the other 23 attornment letters and a further 23 other introduction letters
  • Tenant claims they aren't a Tenant of us.
  • Previous Landlord has been in court for the past 8 months - since locking them out - trying to access the horse stud equity.
  • Tenant keeps sacking their lawyers.....they've gone thru 4 firms thus far. Every new appointment stalls further
  • Being clueless newbs, assuming the previous Landlords solicitors would be on the ball and pick it up running, we hired them to represent us.
  • Took me 3 months to realise they were protecting the 200x much larger previous Landlord than protecting our interests.
  • We sacked those solicitors
  • We hired new solicitors
  • Our new solicitors now say we can try and chase the debt (we've missed out on about 60K so far, and the full Lease is worth 1.2m in rent and outgoings over the next 9 years) although they reckon with the size of the previous Landlord, we've got Buckleys against their might.
  • I bit the bullet and decided to spend the money to chase new Tenants who are national chain operatives, rather than throw good money after bad trying to recover something that will probably come to nought.


I've come to learn these guarantees in retail don't mean diddly squat.....I've been massively disappointed in the p122weak Leases we've inherited with the property purchase and how wishy washy and ineffectual they are. They have no enforcing teeth at all. Very similar to residential which I avoid like the plague.


Anyway.....
 
And I thought being in the construction game was challenging!

I can hardly believe what you're saying, Dazz. Basically, there's no compulsion at all in retail contracts?

This is a revelation to me, for one thing. I had no idea that contracts weren't enforceable things. The other is that these defaulting tenants can be such appalling people. I'd understand if they'd tried to renegotiate or appealed for favourable lease release terms, but to just not pay rent or slip out the back door is contrary to any basic tenet of decency.

I am hearing every day just like everybody else that the retail sector is suffering mightily as a result of weak sales, discount wars, decreased discretionary spending, massively increased household savings rates, increased online purchasing, etc, etc. So I expect they feel they are victims, and so feel somehow released from their moral and material obligations. Or perhaps, and more probably, they just don't give a rats about anyone else except themselves. That's not totally unheard of in business, of course, but it goes against the grain among decent business-folk.

Today (on a positive note) I got to work and found my bank accounts unusually low, and shot off a number of early morning emails to 30+ day debtors. By mid morning I'd received promises of payment of an amazing $200K within 48 hours (even from a few builders who contractually could have held off for payment for another 30+ days easily).

What I'm saying is there are good and decent businesses out there that are willing to pitch in and help out when called upon. It made my day to experience this much solid support, let me tell you!

So can I ask you, Dazz - because I'm residential at this stage through and through - why is commercial and industrial so much less painful?

NB: The owner of my business owns a heap of little retail outlets and now devotes his life (seriously, he employed me to run his main business for this reason) to dealing with all the day-to-day crap involved (mostly crap, as in plumbing problems, but also constantly late rent payments).

Is it just that retail just now is in the crapper, or is it something more structural?

Be great to hear your thoughts as someone who's crossed the divide and is obviously seriously regretting it.
 
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Baron Dazz,

Sorry to hear that things aren't working out as well as planned, however your posts are still absolutely top notch.

I think that I have learned more about Comm from your posts than anywhere else, even if it just happens to be the areas to avoid, as is the case here.

Despite the downsides you are still going to get a very good payday :)
 
Dazz I feel sorry at your misfortune however I am amazed that you think that the law is so in their favour.

It really isn't in their favour IMHO.

However I have heard cases of non-payment of rent under similar circumstances I think its more as shopping centre landlords such as Westfield and others have the legal backing to collect and don't want empty shops.

If you structure their guarantee properly for a large amount and they will pay on time. if they don't pay change the locks slap up some boards and recover the guarantee for not only the costs of the above but the non-performance of the lease. (assuming the NSW act and the VIC act are as close as the REIV keeps telling me)

What type of solicitor's did you employ single practice or a large tier firm as the ones after the vendors.

everyone seems scared to take these tenants on (landlords and solicitors) and the tenants know it and thus drag things out and landlords take the bait thinking that things will pick up, recover, and start paying rent again. all because finding a new tenant can be quite a feat.

I find that my landlords who use the advise of a solicitor that has a back-bone are more then happy to take the gloves off and stick the tenant to the wall.

Out of about 20 tenants in arrears constantly not one has really improved and the landlords when asked to approve the kick up the butt that these people deserve, go quiet and ask for other options.
 
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