Open Road Speed Limits? Time for a change?

[The Fence]

Gotta agree with HiEquity here.

Those who have experience with a major crash, very very close call or a family or friend dying on the roads would all agree that extra speed is not a good prospect moving forward.

Those that haven't, we'll, it'll never happen to them will it?

Someone said you can't legislate for idiots, true, but don't give them any more rope to hang the rest of us with either.

Advanced training and stick to current limits.
That wil bring further safety, orderly traffic AND reduce carbon emissions, not increase it.

 

[BayView]

our driver licencing qualifications are scary - advanced driver training should be a minimum standard as part of getting a licence

I agree.

And, I also believe that learning how to drive a car should be a High School compulsory subject...starting at say; Year 8. This would also include basic car maintenance and being able to change a tyre or battery, check oil, water and tyre pressures, etc. Many folk get stranded for hours on end because they don't know these basic things.

I offered to do this for our local High School at our workshop, but they didn't seem keen to bring the kids down....

I spent almost my entire teen years in the Country, and as a group, most of us kids as 13 year olds could drive tractors, cars small trucks motor bikes and so on.

I already teach my 12 year old son to drive - little sessions out on deserted industrial estate roads on a Sunday afternoon for 15 mins here and there. He loves it.

Back to the raising of speed limits - it is only applying to open road from my understanding.

Back in June I traveled to Kalgoorlie and back, and there are many areas on the way where the limit is 110kph. The roads are mostly deserted, and I was sitting on 115 and nudging 120 most of the time in these areas. I occasionally had folk blow by me like I was standing still, but mostly folk were the same as me....even Grey Nomads with caravans.

In these areas it would be no prob to have a 130kph limit and be safe - only the driver's driving behaviour would make it not so.

Oh; and I always dropped back to the correct speeds for the posted limits when approaching towns and going through them....I don't like speeding fines, haven't had one in more than 10 years, and I don't like to have accidents or hit people.

Speaking of the last fine; it happened at 5.30am in the morning. I was driving to one of our units to do some renovating. It was on a 4 laned road (2 lanes each direction), and the speed limit was 70km.

It was still dark, and there were no cars in either direction, no pedestrians..the road was deserted. I was just driving along as you do, watching the road as it was dark, thinking of the day ahead, doing 78kmh.

Not trying to speed, just cruising along quietly. I must admit I was not really watching the speed, but it didn't even feel fast, or dangerous given the conditions.

I drove past a police car parked in a service station, they radared me, came after me and fined me for speeding.

Now, technically this was correct, and I copped it sweet, but FFS.

 

[The Fence]

I agree.

And, I also believe that learning how to drive a car should be a High School compulsory subject...starting at say; Year 8.

And so should the teaching of how to invest for ones future.

 

[geoffw]

While I do not object on principal to police checking speeds in a school zone, I have seen it done outside a school which was on semester break (a private school where semester breaks are slightly longer than government schools). This was obviously a revenue raising exercise rather than a safety thing, and one of the few times where a speed limit has not been justified.

 

[Ideo]

I agree.

And, I also believe that learning how to drive a car should be a High School compulsory subject...starting at say; Year 8. This would also include basic car maintenance and being able to change a tyre or battery, check oil, water and tyre pressures, etc. Many folk get stranded for hours on end because they don't know these basic things.

I offered to do this for our local High School at our workshop, but they didn't seem keen to bring the kids down....

I spent almost my entire teen years in the Country, and as a group, most of us kids as 13 year olds could drive tractors, cars small trucks motor bikes and so on.

I already teach my 12 year old son to drive - little sessions out on deserted industrial estate roads on a Sunday afternoon for 15 mins here and there. He loves it.

Back to the raising of speed limits - it is only applying to open road from my understanding.

Back in June I traveled to Kalgoorlie and back, and there are many areas on the way where the limit is 110kph. The roads are mostly deserted, and I was sitting on 115 and nudging 120 most of the time in these areas. I occasionally had folk blow by me like I was standing still, but mostly folk were the same as me....even Grey Nomads with caravans.

In these areas it would be no prob to have a 130kph limit and be safe - only the driver's driving behaviour would make it not so.

Oh; and I always dropped back to the correct speeds for the posted limits when approaching towns and going through them....I don't like speeding fines, haven't had one in more than 10 years, and I don't like to have accidents or hit people.

Speaking of the last fine; it happened at 5.30am in the morning. I was driving to one of our units to do some renovating. It was on a 4 laned road (2 lanes each direction), and the speed limit was 70km.

It was still dark, and there were no cars in either direction, no pedestrians..the road was deserted. I was just driving along as you do, watching the road as it was dark, thinking of the day ahead, doing 78kmh.

Not trying to speed, just cruising along quietly. I must admit I was not really watching the speed, but it didn't even feel fast, or dangerous given the conditions.

I drove past a police car parked in a service station, they radared me, came after me and fined me for speeding.

Now, technically this was correct, and I copped it sweet, but FFS.

All of that is bang on.

I do a fair bit of work out at Cobar. The highway is long, straight, with excellent visibility and good surface. It is a prime candidate for a 130 increase. That extra 30kms an hour wouldn't be bad for fatigue either.

There is a huge need for better driver training in this country. But, it would involve Australians actually thinking about things, rather than just mindlessly repeating "thems the rules" as a mantra, thinking that by sticking bang on the speed limit they are a safe driver.

Perhaps the leave everything as it is brigade can answer me this. The Pacific Highway north of the Hawkesbury River used to be the main north-south road. 1 lane in each direction. It had a speed limit of 80, when nearly every car had drum brakes with no power assistance, no airbags, no seatbelts and shoddy crossply tyres. Now, the F3 has been built alongside it. It is 3 lanes wide. Cars can stop in a third of the distance now compared to the early 1970s. We have airbags, seatbelts and good quality tyres. Why is the speed limit on this section of the F3 90?

 

[MarkB]

I do a fair bit of work out at Cobar. The highway is long, straight, with excellent visibility and good surface. It is a prime candidate for a 130 increase.

My brother lives out that way (in the broader far north west of NSW area)...

Tells me how the roads are so straight that he used set the cruise control in the company (govt) car at 180 km/h... (he may still do it for all I know).....

 

[BayView]

While I do not object on principal to police checking speeds in a school zone, I have seen it done outside a school which was on semester break (a private school where semester breaks are slightly longer than government schools). This was obviously a revenue raising exercise rather than a safety thing, and one of the few times where a speed limit has not been justified.

I see unjustified speed camera placings all the time, in areas where it is extremely unlikely that an accident will occur in that speed zone.

We have 3 on a regular basis within 10 mins of where I live.

They are an absolute joke, and they get loads of speeders. Two are in 50kmh zones, on wide open straight roads with little pedestrian traffic, and one is on a wide open country highway, just after a set of lights where cars are accelerating up to what you would expect is going to be a 100kmh area, but is still an 80kmh zone.

We occasionally see the local cops sitting 200 metres down the road from my son's school, zapping folk with a radar gun... The crossing is on a downhill slope, and cars often do more than 60kmh through the crossing area.

Terrific job, boys; catch the speeders, just after they mow down some poor little girl or boy.

 

[geoffw]

NSW has recently done an audit, and removed speed cameras where they feel it's more about revenue than safety. But I've found a way to avoid getting speeding fines. By not speeding.

I'd like to see more red light cameras. There are many times when I've had to wait on a green light for people crossing against a light that's just turned red. Including one intersection where five people died in two separate incidents. That's something I feel is really about safety rather than revenue raising. While it is bad in Canberra though, I see it a lot worse in Sydney, especially around the CBD.

 

[peastman]

The ads tell us if we "knock off 5" we half the chance of having an accident.
Logic also tells me that if I buy two tattslotto tickets instead of one, my chances of winning big is doubled. Reality is chances of me winning is almost zero as is having an accident because of being 5kph over the limit.

I would love to know the real statistics as to how many serious accidents are caused by being a bit over the limit. Most would be because of other factors such as driver fatigue, carelessness, lack of attention, hooning and lack of skill. The accident would happen regardless of speed.

On a driving holiday in England a couple of years ago, I was amazed at how much better drivers over there were. On the motorways left lane drivers would be doing 60-70MPH, middle lane 70-80MPH and right lane 80+. Do the wrong thing and they let you know about it, but they are far more courteous and respect the fact that everyone is just trying to get somewhere. No where near the aggression we get here.

 

[Ideo]

The ads tell us if we "knock off 5" we half the chance of having an accident.
Logic also tells me that if I buy two tattslotto tickets instead of one, my chances of winning big is doubled. Reality is chances of me winning is almost zero as is having an accident because of being 5kph over the limit.

I would love to know the real statistics as to how many serious accidents are caused by being a bit over the limit. Most would be because of other factors such as driver fatigue, carelessness, lack of attention, hooning and lack of skill. The accident would happen regardless of speed.

On a driving holiday in England a couple of years ago, I was amazed at how much better drivers over there were. On the motorways left lane drivers would be doing 60-70MPH, middle lane 70-80MPH and right lane 80+. Do the wrong thing and they let you know about it, but they are far more courteous and respect the fact that everyone is just trying to get somewhere. No where near the aggression we get here.

Yep. I love driving in Europe. Much more traffic but much more respect for the process of driving.

If people were serious about road safety they would look at what rubber they put on their car.

I just replaced the tyres on my car. I spent a lot of cash to get the best possible performance, including braking performance, from them.

These are all performance tyres, but it gives you an idea of how much difference tyres can make to safety.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31810

I'd like everyone who wants speed limits to remain the same/be lower to go outside, have a look at their tyres. If you've bought cheap rubbish like Goodride, you will still be travelling 15m further down the road from where I have come to a safe stop. If they are bald or you have retreads, then I have no time for you at all.

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2012-Autobild-50-Tyre-Braking-Test.htm

 

[BayView]

NSW has recently done an audit, and removed speed cameras where they feel it's more about revenue than safety. But I've found a way to avoid getting speeding fines. By not speeding.

Absolutely agree. It takes a little time to train yourself to be more observant of the zones and stick to them, but it's doable.

I'd like to see more red light cameras. There are many times when I've had to wait on a green light for people crossing against a light that's just turned red. Including one intersection where five people died in two separate incidents. That's something I feel is really about safety rather than revenue raising. While it is bad in Canberra though, I see it a lot worse in Sydney, especially around the CBD.

Absolutely, again.

Folk continue to push boundaries, and now the cameras are all-but gone, there are more and more folk running the red lights again.

When the cameras were in operation, you would see loads of folk slowing down when the yellow light came on.

Now they speed up.

 

[Crabnet]

so speed limit might not be such a big factor after all (although it doesn't say what the actual driving speed was at the time of crash)
would be interesting if the data could also take into account what percentage of the roads have each speed limit

some people say that sticking to the speed limits may save lives, i'm of the opinion that driving to the road conditions saves more lives every year, than speed limits ever did.

IIRC most fatal accidents occur on rural roads due to either run-off or failure to give way at an intersection.
With a run-off it's the lack of a clear road verge that is the problem. People hit trees or other obstructions and die. With intersections there must be inattentiveness involved. Or someone has become distracted. Or as is the case with some that I have come across on windy country roads due to topography you are always taking a risk entering the main road.
I would imagine the faster you go the more chance that when you hit something solid the result will be more serious. Not sure if generally going faster will lead to many more accidents though. Unless one drives too fast for the prevailing road conditions.

 

[HiEquity]

All of that is bang on.

I do a fair bit of work out at Cobar. The highway is long, straight, with excellent visibility and good surface. It is a prime candidate for a 130 increase. That extra 30kms an hour wouldn't be bad for fatigue either.

There is a huge need for better driver training in this country. But, it would involve Australians actually thinking about things, rather than just mindlessly repeating "thems the rules" as a mantra, thinking that by sticking bang on the speed limit they are a safe driver.

Perhaps the leave everything as it is brigade can answer me this. The Pacific Highway north of the Hawkesbury River used to be the main north-south road. 1 lane in each direction. It had a speed limit of 80, when nearly every car had drum brakes with no power assistance, no airbags, no seatbelts and shoddy crossply tyres. Now, the F3 has been built alongside it. It is 3 lanes wide. Cars can stop in a third of the distance now compared to the early 1970s. We have airbags, seatbelts and good quality tyres. Why is the speed limit on this section of the F3 90?

"Brigade" is such a respectful label. I hope it makes you feel better using it.

BTW this is exactly the problem with perception. You can't defeat the laws of physics with radial tyres and disk brakes. A vehicle travelling twice as fast has four times the kinetic energy and there is a limit to what can be done to disperse that. Your assertion that a 70s car had twice the stopping distance of modern cars is way off the mark. Of course modern cars are better but by nowhere near that much. And anyway there are still quite a few older cars on the road today. Drum brakes for example work perfectly well to lock up for one application - it's only in repeated use they heat up and become less effective.

And I'm sure there are plenty of roads around with inappropriate speed limits but that wasn't the point of this thread was it?

 

[Dylan33]

KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING!

If everyone adhered to this one simple rule the speed could be increased. It's far to dangerous to increase it until the driving public are more educated.
It drives me crazy the way people drive on a three laner. The stretch from the central coast to Sydney being an example.

 

[Ideo]

"Brigade" is such a respectful label. I hope it makes you feel better using it.

BTW this is exactly the problem with perception. You can't defeat the laws of physics with radial tyres and disk brakes. A vehicle travelling twice as fast has four times the kinetic energy and there is a limit to what can be done to disperse that. Your assertion that a 70s car had twice the stopping distance of modern cars is way off the mark. Of course modern cars are better but by nowhere near that much. And anyway there are still quite a few older cars on the road today. Drum brakes for example work perfectly well to lock up for one application - it's only in repeated use they heat up and become less effective.

And I'm sure there are plenty of roads around with inappropriate speed limits but that wasn't the point of this thread was it?

Apologies if you thought brigade was somehow insulting. How about group? Can I use group?

Motor Magazine put the new Chrysler 300C down as having a braking distance from 100 as 38.72 metres. And this can be done time and time again without fade.

US Car and Driver Magazine published the figures from 70-0 stopping distance of 1970 Chevelle SS (a higher performance car than the 300C, but a similar category of car) as 273 feet. Yes, there is an extra 10km/h approx in those figures, but that is approximately double the distance.

But, some cars are less bad than others. A test of a classic Mini vs a new Mini over 3 tests only had a difference 45ft. But the classic mini could only do it once before the brakes stopped working.

My point was we are seeing more and more roads, that are safer than the roads they are replaced, with safer cars that can stop in much shorter distances, yet speed limits are being reduced and instead of actual approaches to making roads safer, the only focus is on "wipe off 5" as if that is a panacea for all the ills on the road.

 

[HiEquity]

Apologies if you thought brigade was somehow insulting. How about group? Can I use group?

Motor Magazine put the new Chrysler 300C down as having a braking distance from 100 as 38.72 metres. And this can be done time and time again without fade.

US Car and Driver Magazine published the figures from 70-0 stopping distance of 1970 Chevelle SS (a higher performance car than the 300C, but a similar category of car) as 273 feet. Yes, there is an extra 10km/h approx in those figures, but that is approximately double the distance.

But, some cars are less bad than others. A test of a classic Mini vs a new Mini over 3 tests only had a difference 45ft. But the classic mini could only do it once before the brakes stopped working.

My point was we are seeing more and more roads, that are safer than the roads they are replaced, with safer cars that can stop in much shorter distances, yet speed limits are being reduced and instead of actual approaches to making roads safer, the only focus is on "wipe off 5" as if that is a panacea for all the ills on the road.

I agree but a Landcruiser ute still has a terrible stopping distance and they would get the same speed limit. There are plenty of cars still being sold that don't enjoy anywhere near such performance, despite the presence of disk brakes and radial tyres.

But that is almost beside the point, which is that all of these features have demonstrably served to reduce the road toll already:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_Australia_by_year

Back in 1980 there were 22 road deaths per 100,000 population. In 2011 there were just over 5. All this stuff is working for sure, including better enforcement of current speed limits, to save lives but 5 per 100,000 per year is still far too many. The fact that fewer people are dying on our roads than used to does not mean we should wind back the very measures that have improved road safety by so much.

 

[BayView]

Back in 1980 there were 22 road deaths per 100,000 population. In 2011 there were just over 5. All this stuff is working for sure, including better enforcement of current speed limits, to save lives but 5 per 100,000 per year is still far too many. The fact that fewer people are dying on our roads than used to does not mean we should wind back the very measures that have improved road safety by so much.

Interestingly, there are still many deaths caused by drunks, by car thieves fleeing pursuit cars, drivers falling asleep at the wheel.

Down my way, since I have been living here, there have been countless falling asleep at the wheel deaths that I am aware of.

On that Kalgoorlie trip I did; many more. You may also blame kangaroos or camels for some of them, but the crosses on trees, etc were a giveaway.

This where the whole "speed kills" argument comes unstuck; they market it like it the only cause of death.

It is not the only cause; it is the mitigating factor in some deaths.

It is good that they also have ads where they show hoon motorbike riders, people on phones, etc - this has a modicum of impact towards education, but I reckon most people take no notice of them.

 

[geoffw]

I would love to know the real statistics as to how many serious accidents are caused by being a bit over the limit. Most would be because of other factors such as driver fatigue, carelessness, lack of attention, hooning and lack of skill. The accident would happen regardless of speed.

According to the highly esteemed Wikipedia speed is not a major contribution to accidents in England, but increases the death rate

In 2008 14% of collisions reported to the police had a speed related contributory factor (either "exceeding the speed limit" or "travelling too fast for conditions") reported rising to 24% for fatal accidents and 25% of all road deaths.[n 5] "Exceeding the speed limit" was reported as a contributory factor in 5% of collisions and 14% of fatal collisions.

also

when two cars crash at 60 mph a driver there is a 90% chance of death which falls to 65% at 50 mph

On a driving holiday in England a couple of years ago, I was amazed at how much better drivers over there were. On the motorways left lane drivers would be doing 60-70MPH, middle lane 70-80MPH and right lane 80+. Do the wrong thing and they let you know about it, but they are far more courteous and respect the fact that everyone is just trying to get somewhere. No where near the aggression we get here.

That was the case when I lived there many years ago, and it's good to see that it has continued. But drivers in some other countries were far more aggressive than in Australia.

According to Wikipedia again England has one of the lowest death rates per vehicle and per km travelled in the world.

 

[BayView]

According to the highly esteemed Wikipedia speed is not a major contribution to accidents in England, but increases the death rate

Yep. That's more like the real truth.

According to Wikipedia again England has one of the lowest death rates per vehicle and per km travelled in the world.

The roads are so narrow you have to drive like granny, in little buzzboxes that'll fit on the tarmac, and everywhere is a half hour drive

Never get into 3rd gear...Ireland is the same....more likely to die by cow on road than any other car.

No fun for an Aussie Falcodore hoon or the weekend warrior in the fully loaded Lancruiser, maaaate.

Sick!

 

[Strannik]

Back in 1980 there were 22 road deaths per 100,000 population. In 2011 there were just over 5. All this stuff is working for sure, including better enforcement of current speed limits, to save lives but 5 per 100,000 per year is still far too many. The fact that fewer people are dying on our roads than used to does not mean we should wind back the very measures that have improved road safety by so much.

what's more interesting is that if you look at the world data on the same site, germany is not too far off with 6.something per 100,000 population. with the speedlimits being higher than aus, population almost 4 times higher than aus, and country being much smaller than aus.
plus all the crazy tourists they get from all over europe

so you are right, we shouldn't be winding back the very measures that improved the road safety. however it's yet to be proven that speed limits as they are today, had any impact on the safety whatsoever.

cause i'm sure there were speed limits in the 80's too, and they probably were stricter than what we have now anyway cause the roads were ****.