Property Myths Exposed

Sim

Administrator
mmm... bet you can't guess what the person who wrote this does (or did) for a living... (answer at the bottom).

From: http://www.westpacinfo.com.au/online/15/article3.cfm

Time for a reality check

By Peter Thornhill *

Headlines about the sharemarket plunging, crashing or even melting down may be great for selling newspapers, but it also has a subliminal effect on our attitudes about shares.

It all helps foster the myth among novice investors that property should be their sole investment solution - simply because it seems more reliable.

Let's look at some of the myths, and the reality:

Myth 1: I know property
It is staggering how many people claim to have expertise with property, apparently only because they're surrounded by it. They follow local prices and extend this knowledge to the property market in general - or perhaps just glance at the colour photographs in the real estate pages and dream a little.

These are not the thoughts or emotions that run through our minds in relation to shares in Australian businesses.

But then, our house prices don't appear on television every day, reminding us of the short-term volatility of property prices, as well as our eagerness in trying to make a quick buck. You should never mistake familiarity with expertise.

Myth 2: Property is always a good long-term investment
One of the drawbacks of property - its lack of liquidity - makes it an attribute to the ill-informed. Because property can't be sold quickly when sentiment is negative or cash is required in a hurry, shares are usually the first assets to go.

Wise investors like the liquidity of shares. Shares can also be a great long-term investment - when they're not performing to expectations, wait until prices improve before selling, just as you would with property.

Myth 3: You can't lose money in property
The assumption that you can't lose money in property can often lead to paying too much for it. People also ignore the costs of holding on to property for long periods. Although the price might have risen, the value may have declined. Not all property goes up and not all shares go down.

Let's now consider some reasons for considering shares as an alternative to property.

Tax effectiveness
Shares can be geared just as easily as property. Gearing means borrowing money and using it to generate an income. When used in this way, the interest is tax-deductible.

In general, dividends are more stable and will grow faster than rents when all costs are considered. And if shares are selected wisely, they provide tax credits not normally available with property. One more important fact, just because you can borrow more against a property than shares doesn't make it a good investment.

Reducing risk through diversification
Because you can't buy 20 properties at the same time, fortunes are usually linked to one property in one suburb, in one city, in one country and one economic cycle.

But with shares we can obtain a stake in many businesses in many countries with much less than what it costs to get into property. If one country suffers an economic downturn, this does not necessarily affect the whole portfolio.

Looking towards the future
One of the greatest changes of our time is the global mobility of capital and technology.

Our parents might have lived and died in one town, often in one house, relying on immobile capital and technology to provide a job for life, but our children will live in a global village, and must become as mobile as the capital and technology they seek to use.

I urge you to consider that property may not be the lucrative and safe investment we have always assumed it to be. Even though property seems easier to understand at times, we shouldn't let lack of knowledge deter us from exploring alternative investment strategies. Speaking to your adviser about your own particular objectives and needs is the best way to ensure you make the right investment decisions.

* Peter Thornhill has worked in the financial services industry for 35 years, and runs seminars on wealth creation. He is a former general manager of MLC. The above article is adapted from his book 'Motivated Money'.
 
hee hee,

Should get someone to debate him publicly....

To counter the myths:

Myth 1: I know property
You can research & learn about property about as fast as you can research & learn about shares.

And because shares are constantly in our face EVERYONE is an expert - worse than property!


Myth 2: Property is always a good long-term investment
Who said this? I thought this myth was invented by share analysts solely to debunk it. Like any other investment there is risk - anyone who does their research - in property or otherwise - knows this.

Property is supposedly illiquid, but you can sell it very quickly so long as the price is right...same as shares. And many of the listed (small cap) shares are also highly illiquid with only a few trades per month. In fact they may be slower moving than most property.


Myth 3: You can't lose money in property
Also created by share analysts to debunk. You can lose money in ANY investment. I haven't heard anyone say otherwise. However there are certainly more systems out there guaranteeing great trading returns than there are property returns.

As for holding costs - it's possible to buy positively geared properties in every state in Australia, and probably every city....in fact it's possible to get returns substantially higher than any dividends from shares...what holding costs?

And as for gearing, it's easier (and more encouraged by brokers) to overgear shares than property.


Reducing risk through diversification
Who said you had to stop at one investment property? That would be like buying one share in one company.

And you can buy many properties at the same time providing your lending capacity is sufficient. Though this isis only an advantage if you've done your research - sort of like buying many shares at the same time - you have to do your research or tolerate VERY high risk.


One of the greatest changes of our time is the global mobility of capital and technology.

But people still live in houses :)


Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Originally posted by Aceyducey
Property is supposedly illiquid, but you can sell it very quickly so long as the price is right

More the point, you don't actually have to sell your property to access the equity contained within it - banks will readily lend money against the equity in your property for you to use for other things. So it can be quite easy to get access to money in an emergency with property (provided you plan ahead !) - and you don't have to sell the asset to retrieve it !
 
And a couple of points from Dolf De Roos:

1 - What is the price of a property compared with shares? Property you can negotiate on and get a bargain bloew market value but the shareprice is a market value and the is no negotiation other than waiting for the price to change.

2 - What can you do to improve the value of a property or your share holding? Property there are heaps of strategies to improve the value but with shares there are not many but to hope that the directors run the company well.

3 - Looking at the long term, if a house and land and a company were bought 100 years ago, which would still be around today? Maybe not the house but the land would most likely be there, but how many companies survive 100 years?

Everybody can do what they think is best. For me it is property!
 
I dont think either shares nor property is better, both have a place in most ppl's portfolio.

My favourite myth is the (il)liquidity one. If I had a 400k property with a 300k loan, I bet I can find 50k-100k quicker than a shareholder could - while still holding onto my assett.
 
Originally posted by Sim
Funnily enough, the previous article ( http://www.westpacinfo.com.au/online/15/article1.cfm ) was by Paul Clitheroe spreading his usual - "you can do this... but it's risky" message about leverage in property and shares...

Hi Sim

I think in Pauls artical the only mention of property was taking out a loan to buy managed funds or shares. We all know the recent history of managed funds :eek:

In RK's story I read this -

"So before you run out and borrow money to invest in assets, you should know that debt is only one form of leverage and all have a sharp edge on two sides. I first recommend that you get educated on how to use whatever form of leverage interests you, and like me seek advice based on your particular circumstances and financial goals before making a decision."

Now with my limited reading of RK that does not sound like the advice he would normaly give.......sounds more like an ad for a finincial planer to me :rolleyes:

bundy
 
Originally posted by bundy1964
...sounds more like an ad for a finincial planer to me

Indeed. Follow the money trail and you will see what the advice actually means !
 
Hi

One of the common arguments against property proposed by the money market is the illiquidity of property.

It has been touched on above by others and often elsewhere on the forum

Clitheroe often uses this argument. Adds to it by stating that you can't sell off a few bricks from the home or sell off the front room if you need the cash urgently like you can sell off a few shares. But that is the point; you have to sell the assets (Shares) if you want the cash

If you have a look at your home now, there is most likely some accessible equity available in the present home. Simply decide how much sleep money you want for a comfortable SANF organise it now and at settlement in a few weeks, immediately put it back into the existing mortgage. And you still own the asset, all of it.

The net result is that you borrow say $20,000 at current bank rates, immediately put it back into the mortgage so it is now not going to cost anything. Mortgage increases by $20,000 and is then paid down by $20,000 but it sits there and is immediately able to be drawn upon when needed faster than any sale of shares will allow. Now that is liquidity.

Do it now, before you need the urgent cash and have it sit there for emergencies.

We have to be tolerant of the money market urgers. They have had a declining market for a couple of years now and there does not appear to be any stopping the decline. They are worried. They cannot encourage clients to short sell the market as easily as long sell.

I like the stock market. I trade shares myself but over the past couple of years have shorted all the way and made money. I don't knock the ASX and international markets. They play a major role in our society.

Regards

Ross
 
2 - What can you do to improve the value of a property or your share holding? Property there are heaps of strategies to improve the value but with shares there are not many but to hope that the directors run the company well.

Even more ironically, if you do take actions to improve the value of your shares you can be thrown into gaol (fraud, insider trading, etc) ;)
 
For me the most worrying statement in Paul's article is

"Assume the market falls 50 per cent just after you invest. If you think you'll panic and sell, then don't borrow against your home"

The first thing that should be in place BEFORE buying shares is an exit strategy.

When you buy a share it is done with the expectation that the price is going to rise ( yeah, yeah , I know that's obvious ). Shares will always exhibit some volitility but you need to set a price which, if it falls below, is outside the expected range of volatility and indicates that your assumption the price is going to rise is incorrect. Once it goes below this price ( the stop loss) you sell, taking a small loss as opposed to hanging on and taking a larger loss. Stop losses can be set by various methods.

The aim being to hang on to the shares that are going up , and get rid of the losers.

Too often people make a small profit and sell in order to realise their profit while they still have it. They hang on to the shares that have gone down , waiting for them to go back up to what they paid for them.


If you still have your shares when they have fallen 50 % you've got a problem.

see change
 
Too often people make a small profit and sell in order to realise their profit while they still have it. They hang on to the shares that have gone down , waiting for them to go back up to what they paid for them.

But does this not go against the grain of "investing" versus "trading"? If you have chosen companies with good fundamentals in the first place, how worried should you be when the market drops 50%?

I'd be interested to hear Steve Navra's viewpoint on this. My vague understanding of Steve's process is that he wouldn't have picked junk shares to begin with (ie. ASX200 large caps that meet his specific criteria) and he'd be buying up big when the share price fell, confident the shares were of good quality and *were* going to recover? I'm sure Steve may also have an exit strategy in place, but I'm guessing it's perhaps a little more involved than this?
 
Hi Kevin

Obviously I will not attempt to answer for Steve.

My feeling is that Trading and Investing are quite different, both in property and shares. .

Talking just shares. A different approach is required. If you are investing you are entering the market with the viewpoint of retaining the asset for the long haul. Therefore you would be closely examining the company and all its history, its Directors knowledge, experience and record as directors, the ROI, yields etc., etc., and all those factors which are encompassed by the phrase due diligence. Many have written on it, perhaps the most notable of current times is Warren Buffet.

If you are trading, you may only wish to retain the shares for say 20 days (equivalent to one month) and therefore you really don’t care about all those matters mentioned above. Long term trading is considered six months. I do not recommend day trading.
You make your assessment based on a number of factors more simply highlighted in charting and buy long or sell short as you see fit with stops in place as a safety factor. You would not ride the market down. It has been falling steadily this past two years and the end is really clearly not in sight yet

So you don’t wisely invest in junk shares and you had better be cautious trading them or wear the consequences.

If you trade property, then by definition you will only retain the asset for a relatively short time. If you invest in property, you intend to hold on to the asset and ride out the up and down movements because long term it will be up. Exceptions always apply.

My main comment is that the share market compares its performance by comparing itself to property using the ASX 200 as the market yardstick.

Of the top 200 companies used for today’s ASX 200, two thirds of them were not included 10 years ago. Or another way of putting the argument is to say that of the top 200 used ten years ago more than 120 companies have been dropped, merged, fallen by the wayside, gone into liquidation, broke or otherwise are non existent today. Is this really a fair comparison when most of the companies used in the top 200 cease to exist within ten years?

Regards

Ross
 
When the overall market goes down the best shares on a fundamental basis tend to do nothing. No trades at all. So you cant buy them cheap anyway. The best value shares tend to be illiquid.

The blue chips have recently been crushed AMP Brambles Mayne CSL Telstra etc. The ASX200 is based on market capitalisation (shares times price). So if a share is at some delusional level it goes into the index. No kidding. For example Computershare, ERG, Onetel etc etc etc. So some ASX200 companies go broke or go down over 80% in amazingly quick time.

Ok this recent period has been not been typical. This kind of action happens only every few decades and it puts people off shares for a generation. Like 1929-1932 and 1966-1974. The number of funds peaked at the top of both of those times. And there were mutual fund melt downs each time. From memory there were about 2000 "index trusts" in 1929 and next to none at the bottom. After that they changed their names to mutual funds because the name index trust had such a bad reputation.

Have a look at the dow/gold ratio and the inflation adjusted returns for stocks http://home.houston.rr.com/intelligentbear/. After both these major turns currencies were devalued to keep the system going. This meant gold and commodities went up in dollar terms.

Sure real companies will survive but there must be a lot of pain even in holding them. One theoretical function of share markets is to value companies reasonably. Wild swings in large capitalisation companies indicates that it fails to do so.

Most fund managers are index managers or closet indexers. Closet indexers pretend to have committees of geniuses valuing companies. You have seen the advertisements. But really they just take peoples money and slosh it around according to index weightings. They get their 1-2% no matter what. Thing is they plough money (superannuation) into any crap so long as its in the index. They are the dumb money.

That 1-2% is a lot compared to the long term after inflation returns from shares.

Their real job is advertising and lobbying politicians to increase superannuation contributions. I am expecting the funds management industry to be slowly decimated over the next few years.

Mr Turkey
 
Peter Thornhill - review circa 2005

I saw Peter Thornhill at a 'money show' yesterday, 17/4/2005 in Townsville.

His delivery was quite funny, and like every person on the planet had a few good points. Unfortunately time was limited and it was a presentation - without the opportunity to explore a few assertions. It would have been good to have AceyDucey's rebuttals in hand!

Interestingly, the gentleman was trying to change your mind - but I don't think he would be as flexible if the shoe were on the other foot!

Another thing that has come to mind, we may be 2 years behind the trends down south in property, so an anti property person mustn't have a message to spruik down there...

Cheers
J
 
Just another point on shares. If you buy shares you are really losing control of your money. If I buy shares in BHP for example, how am I going to know how much drilling or mining they're going to do. Fundamental analysis and buying blue chips is seriously flawed for this reason. If you're not in the board room you'll never really know how your investment is going. It might be all well and good for Peter Thornhill to say that most people dont really know about property, rather they are familiar with it, but how would anyone be able to really understand the true value of the shares they are buying? Its much easier to understand value in property by buying the local weekend paper.

Tubs
 
Value

tubs said:
but how would anyone be able to really understand the true value of the shares they are buying? Its much easier to understand value in property by buying the local weekend paper.

Tubs
I know down to the cent how much my portfolio in the financial markets is worth, I track it 100% accurately on a daily basis as well. With my PPOR I look at the weekend paper and know within a rough limit what I might 'reasonably expect' from a sale, but nothing more accurate than that.

I'm not really that concerned I might not know the inner secrets of the BHP board as I would have a strict stop loss in place before buying and any good news I don't know about won't cause me to lose any sleep either.

Dolf De-Roos mentions that you can add value to property with a coat of paint or other improvement (something not so easy to do with shares). I'm not aware of any of the property guru's stating that property is better than shares because you have more of an idea of it's 'true value'? Are there any?

tubs said:
Just another point on shares. If you buy shares you are really losing control of your money. If I buy shares in BHP for example, how am I going to know how much drilling or mining they're going to do. Fundamental analysis and buying blue chips is seriously flawed for this reason.
Losing control of your money? No I'm not. I just place a sell order with my broker and the money is back in my wallet. With regard to working the money harder then you can look into other ideas with BHP, including be short the share, options and all kinds of derivatives. Ok I don't have an influence on where they build their next mine, but I don't have any control over how many people want to rent or buy RE in my suburb either.

But there are many excellent points for property over shares of course, the old bacon vs eggs debate.

One of my current struggles is that I have too many tempting choices for investments, this seems to be a real danger as you end up not becoming a specialist on any one investing strategy.
 
Last edited:
Andrew_A said:
One of my current struggles is that I have too many tempting choices for investments, this seems to be a real danger as you end up not becoming a specialist on any one investing strategy.

Here here!

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
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