Selling house due to rates arrears - information sought.

[wylie]

We have a family member who is in the psych ward right now and we are holding a family meeting tomorrow to try to work out how to move forward. This person owns a house in the Caloundra City Council area and we believe there are roughly $4K in rates not paid, plus unpaid water accounts.

Her son lives in the house with her and we are trying to get in touch with him so he can bring any paperwork to the family meeting. It is of concern that there are news reports that dozens of houses are being auctioned/sold in August and it is entirely possible that her house may be one of them. If she has not bothered with paying bills and/or opening letters, there could be a letter advising that she will be sold up.

There is no power of attorney and we are aware that we don't want to meddle in her affairs, but if we can stop any selling up of her house to give her/us time to work things out, then we will do so.

I have an old rates notice, have the lot number and street address and wonder if anybody knows how I can find out if her house is one of the ones earmarked to be sold?

I also thought there must be some public notices published detailing the houses involved. If so, where could I search for these?

Any help much appreciated.

 

[Terryw]

hi Wylie

If this person cannot manage their own affairs a relative could apply for guardianship orders from a court. This would be like a power of attorney and would apply the guardian to manage their affairs including money related stuff.

If you just ring the council they are unlikely to release any information. But you may be able to talk to the freedom of information officer at the council and tell them the story. they can tell you if they will be able to release the information you need.

Another idea is to approach local agents as they would likely handle any auctions for the area.

 

[pennyk]

Sorry to hear you are going through this..... you've already had such a hard time.
I dont know what you need to do, but I would suggest ringing Caloundra Council, and asking them to put a hold on any action to be taken until you can sort out the situation.
Much as I hate to recommend it, I would also suggest that you (or someone in the family) apply for Guardianship. You will only be granted it on a temporary basis, and you have to fill in loads of forms and reports and its an administrative nightmare. But it will at least allow someone to make financial , medical and social decisions on your relatives behalf.
Given that there is a family involved, I would suggest having 2 people appointed as guardians...... both to ensure accountability and to manage the workload. Make sure one of them is reasonably good at keeping accounts.
Hope it turns out OK.

 

[wylie]

Thanks Terry and Penny. This is hubby's sister and what a trail of devastation she is leaving . If she stays on her medication, she can manage, but when she goes off it she really gets paranoid and ends up in a psych ward. She has schizophrenia They stabilise her, release her, and the whole thing starts again.

If she was totally incapable, it would be easier in a way because her sisters and my hubby could take control and manage things for her, but because she has periods when she is capable, it is a difficult path for everybody to tread. How much taking over to do???

If they step in and take over her affairs, she will possibly feel very resentful and like she has no control, whereas with some help (and an EPA) then at least her affairs can be taken over when she goes downhill, until she can cope again.

Hubby and his mother suggested selling her house (with her cooperation - at this stage it would be wrong to step in and take over completely) and either buy her something closer to Brisbane or use the sale proceeds to fund her rent somewhere. I think this is a big mistake.

I would prefer she go home to her own house, stay on the medication. I believe she can be monitored and regularly visited by health department for injections of her medication - which is better than relying on her taking oral medication. This has worked for several years, until she runs away and misses the medication, heads into a downhill spiral, enters hospital and it all starts again.

If it turns out she cannot cope up there without her 21 year old son, who has had enough!!! then she will have to come closer to her mother and sisters (and us). I believe renting out her house would be best in this case because once it is sold, that pot of money from the sale proceeds has to last her probably 30 years or more. She is 48.

She would spend any sale proceeds if she got hold of it, but it could be managed by two siblings, however I think it is a huge step backwards. She owns the house and just owes several thousand in rates/water, which we would pay and then try to have her pension pay a fortnightly amount to the rates/water so it doesn't fall behind again.

At least if the house is rented, it can grow in value, whilst she uses the rent coming in to fund something down here.

Does that sound feasible (financially)?

 

[Amadio]

Yes it does sound feasible and most sensible. Once that asset goes it will be downhill from the sound of it. God - what a nightmare.

Aren't auctions of house which have not been paying rates advertised? - I think I've seen them in The Australian and the Courier Mail but not in the RE section - in the business section which has the legal notices.

 

[wylie]

Thanks Amadio. I thought the same. I spent a bit of today searching the Caloundra City Council site but couldn't find anything other than an article from February about the sales, but no links to advise which houses are involved. I will continue searching. I have been told by her son that he thinks she is paying $50 per pension towards paying the rates off, so hopefully, her house will not be involved. We will check this as soon as the easter break is over, with her help if possible, but if not, we will see if anybody will at least tell us her house is NOT at risk.

Time for some more searching.....

 

[luckyone]

What if you just do a google search for the address Wylie? Does that return the house? I assume they'd list it on some website.

 

[wylie]

Thanks Luckyone. My first search was simply to google the address. I have since googled the newspapers and found today's paper with several notices about sale of houses due to unpaid rates. I haven't worked out (yet) how to search back dates, and haven't a clue how far back I need to search.

Found no "tags" on RPData and no listings with agents. Her son is still living there but is not aware of any letters having arrived.

I'll wait now until one of the sisters gets here tomorrow. I'm sure she will have spoken to the other sister and hopefully she can simply tell us what the arrears amount is, and whether or not she has received any notice about possible sale. I feel confident that it is not a risk after finding the article from February which says the houses to be sold have unpaid rates since 2006. I know her rates were caught up in 2005 so there is a question mark on that, but before spending more hours searching, the best thing is probably to ask her when one of her sisters sees her in the ward.

The hardest part is that each of the three sisters and the mother all have little bits of information, so once we get together we might form a better overall picture of how things are.

 

[Propertunity]

...If she stays on her medication, she can manage, but when she goes off it she really gets paranoid and ends up in a psych ward. She has schizophrenia

Yes, but when she takes her medicine she feels better....so she does not need to take it any more I have friends who have a daughter with similar behaviour patterns.

wylie, I think it unlikely, that with an arrears of only $4K, that this would trigger a council auction....especially if she is on a payment plan.

It takes quite a few years before it gets to this. Only after many letters, a bad credit file and when the auction board goes up in the front yard and the sherrif delivers a notice, that's when you can know for sure.

 

[weg]

Sorry to hear you're having to go through this wylie. I've seen this many times and know how difficult a situation this is for everyone - the person regularly becoming unwell because of not always taking their medication, not paying their bills and the housing situation.

I also don't think the council will take the home too quickly if arrears are only about 4K and there is a payment plan in place. It's worth trying to talk to them about it though, you never know. Councils would see this sort of thing more than you realise.

Ask to speak to the social worker at the hospital? It's their job to sort out this type of thing (secure housing). Information of this type is generally shared with them as they are speaking on behalf of the patient, even if they're unwell. As next of kin you should be able to get some of this info if they believe it is in your SIL best interest (and it clearly is).

What I would do is wait till she is better and urge her to think about giving you and your husband authority to look after both her financial and medical affairs. Tell her what the alternatives are and that she could lose the house otherwise. Hopefully she understands.

If things get worse in the future you may have to apply for an Administration Order through the Guardianship Board - not ideal but better than losing the house.

The most recent case of this sort of thing I've seen was an elderly investor (of all people) who had a few IP's but was past being able to manage them. Most were vacant and dilapidated or with non paying tenants in them and he owed not only a lot on rates but also on land tax.

The Guardianship board did step in in this case and the properties were sold but the situation was far more complicated as the patient owed a lot more than your SIL and was unable to adequately look after himself or his PPOR, let alone IP's.

 

[wylie]

Thanks Prop and Weg. At the moment she is quite lucid, made a will last week and my MIL is waiting for the documentation from her case doctor to confirm that she is capable of making that will. We should try at this point to have her agree to appoint perhaps my hubby and her oldest sister as joint attorneys, so that should she need them to deal with things on her behalf when she is not well, they can do so.

Unfortunately, as you already know about this illness, when she is feeling well, she really thinks she is well, stops taking her meds, and it starts again. Right now, she seems very lucid and rather sensible, albeit thinking people are watching and chasing her, so having her agree to an EPA would be great, and take some of the worry about things for her mother, who is 82 this month. She is very "young" but the worry is getting to her.

She thinks she can have the daughter live with her, but for the past five weeks she has been there (and previous times after she comes out of hospital), she hasn't slept, will not allow the daughter to use the gas stove or kettle, harps about the doors being locked etc, which is one of the big issues for the daughter. She thinks people are trying to get in the house, so a mother who is reinforcing how unsafe the house is doesn't help. Her mother, thinking she is being helpful, is keeping the daughter too close and not allowing her to do normal things.

It is not good for either of them. The daughter needs to be able to be as independent as possible with some sort of regular "look in" by someone who can ensure she is fine and taking her meds, or is at home when the meds come to her. Unfortunately, this type of facility has been closed down by previous governments (my understanding) and so perhaps the next best thing is for her to find a small flat near her mother and use the rent she gets from her own house to fund it.

Will see how this meeting goes today and might have more questions. Thanks for all the help so far. I really appreciate it.

 

[weg]

Wylie, you may want to approach Centerlink (with your SIL) and explain her financial dilemma to them. With their help your SIL can have things set up so water and rates come out fortnightly. Obviously you will need to talk to these organizations yourself to allow Centerlink to set something up. Also encourage her to sign an authority allowing Centerlink correspondence with you so you stay in the loop.

It all takes time and work but it can be the solution to the financial side. Your SIL should be allowed to live by herself. Personally I don't think moving would change much of anything and could actually be worse for her.

In regards to someone dropping in and keeping an eye on you SIL, you're right that the services have all but disappeared. It's all about crisis intervention now not prevention, much to the disgust of those working in the system and the families that struggle to get help.

Things sometimes need to go very wrong first to get what you need - even then it's not always great. My advise is to do some homework and tap into non mental health organizations that can do this supervision. If you were is SA I could probably help you out a bit here.

Try the council (who will refer you on), Centerlink, District Nursing and some of those advice lines who can put you onto people that can help. There is some good help out there but you have to look hard for it .

I agree with your view on the oral meds. Some of the new injectables are very good with very few side effects and most patient don't mind them. The good thing is those giving it can also monitor mental state which is a big bonus. The problem though is getting her to attend a clinic. See what you can do to change things there.

A very good GP is a must as well.

 

[Ed Barton]

Thanks Terry and Penny. This is hubby's sister and what a trail of devastation she is leaving . If she stays on her medication, she can manage, but when she goes off it she really gets paranoid and ends up in a psych ward. She has schizophrenia They stabilise her, release her, and the whole thing starts again.

wylie you are to be commended for discussing mental health in public. for too many years it's been a hidden away thing. bravo.

it's easy for a person with a mental illness being treated to think they are better and don't need to take the meds any more. i'd work extremely hard on getting her to realise she needs to take the meds; well or sick. it might solve all your problems.

If they step in and take over her affairs, she will possibly feel very resentful and like she has no control, whereas with some help (and an EPA) then at least her affairs can be taken over when she goes downhill, until she can cope again.

she probably feels resentful already. what's and EPA? do you mean a ITO (involuntary treatment order)? getting an ITO will make her resentful in the short term, but things are probably going to turn out for the better in the long term.

Hubby and his mother suggested selling her house (with her cooperation - at this stage it would be wrong to step in and take over completely) and either buy her something closer to Brisbane or use the sale proceeds to fund her rent somewhere. I think this is a big mistake.

i think it is a big mistake too. the best place for her health is in her home she knows and loves.

I would prefer she go home to her own house, stay on the medication. I believe she can be monitored and regularly visited by health department for injections of her medication - which is better than relying on her taking oral medication. This has worked for several years, until she runs away and misses the medication, heads into a downhill spiral, enters hospital and it all starts again.

getting an ITO will ensure the health dept give her the regular depo injections and manage her condition.

If it turns out she cannot cope up there without her 21 year old son, who has had enough!!! then she will have to come closer to her mother and sisters (and us). I believe renting out her house would be best in this case because once it is sold, that pot of money from the sale proceeds has to last her probably 30 years or more. She is 48.

are you (or another relative) going to take her in? i'm sure she can cope if she takes her meds. get that right and everything else falls in line. it sounds like she has a massive amount of family support.

She owns the house and just owes several thousand in rates/water, which we would pay and then try to have her pension pay a fortnightly amount to the rates/water so it doesn't fall behind again.

do your best to find out what the arrears are and pay them. you will find professionals bend privacy when they know it is better to break it.


good luck whylie

 

[yadreamin]

Some councils here in the Wild west allow the residents, usually aged, to sign a covernant over their property. usually inner city, that once they resident /home owners passes away the Council has first drag on the estate to recover the rates and in some ases many years of rates. It was intially started to help these aged residents survive in their own homes on the pension. Wylie you may be ble to do similar with your family situation.
Good luck

 

[wylie]

Thanks Ed Barton and yadreamin. She is currently on a ITO, and is trying to have that lifted. She is a very manipulative and clever woman, and has convinced the youngish case worker to change from an injection to oral meds. I think she needs to go back to the injection so that there is certainty of whether she is getting the meds she needs.

I would not willingly take her in to our house for lots of reasons, and two of her sisters didn't come to the meeting. One sister, my hubby and her mother and her daughter were there. Her daughter, at 23 has a fantastic partner to support her, and she is loving but firm with her mother. Sugar coating things is not helpful, and she is quite blunt when her mother tries to "pull one over her". The patient will lie to get what she wants, but we are all a wake up to her techniques.

I know I could pretend I am her to get the information about rates, water and electricity but I don't really want to do that. I will see how far I get and if I hit a brick wall, then it is up to her to produce her overdue accounts. She is very concerned she could lose her house, so she seems lucid enough to make the calls herself, with her older sister with her to make sure the details are taken to allow them to be paid.

She spends her money on silly things, and I believe setting up an automatic deduction to the rates, water and electricity is the only way that these accounts will be paid. He mother paid several thousand to catch up the rates five years ago. She says there is another $4K owing now, and I don't think any of us want to keep bailing her out with family money whilst she is spending the money she gets on silly, wasteful stuff, which she does now.

I'll try the rates, water and electricity tomorrow and see how I go. She will never be "right" and all we can hope for is for her to be safe, settled and try to live some sort of balanced life. She could not hold down a job, but we are hopeful she might volunteer somewhere so she isn't bored and looking for some excitement, which creates lots of problems.

 

[Amadio]

I know I could pretend I am her to get the information about rates, water and electricity but I don't really want to do that.

If you can - go for it. Forget feeling bad about the inethical side of pretending to be someone else. You need the info. Any way you can get it is essential to begin to be able to plan ahead.

 

[Deena]

Wylie, gee you poor thing, very difficult dealing with a family member with schizophrenia, part and parcel of thier condition not taking meds, the manipulation etc, but you are well aware of all of that.

You have been given lots of good advice here. Just wanted to add my support for yourself and loved ones affected by all of this. Keep your chin up, sure that must be difficult at times. Keep on sharing with us, good to offload, few could imagine how difficult mental health issues affect family members.

 

[wylie]

Thanks everyone. Just an update. Called and whilst not able over the phone to get amounts owing, have arranged with rates and water for duplicate bills to be sent to her house. She has agreed to sign a letter authorising her son (living at her house) to open the mail.

He found in some unopened mail the water and electricity bills and we now just wait for the rates bill.

Discussing this last night with her 23 year old daughter (such a sensible girl, with a hugely supportive partner) we will wait for the rates bill and then discuss how we move forward.

We don't want any action to sell her house to be commenced and instead of paying her bills (possibly around $5K all up) we might make a token lump sum payment (maybe $1K) and implement a fortnightly payment to clear the arrears.

The patient is not wanting us as a family to "interfere" or "take over" and will not agree to a Power of Attorney, but is very happy that we pay her bills .

We want to ensure that she takes ownership of this issue. Her mother paid around $5K in rates six years ago and one sister said the patient is expecting that these bills will also be taken care of by the family.

At the moment we believe she is paying $75 per fortnight towards clearing arrears and I think this needs to be increased to $200 per fortnight to clear arrears and catch up on what is accruing whilst the arrears are being cleared.

She apparently gets $500 per fortnight and with a fully owned house, I think she should be able to live on $300 per fortnight, which is only feeding herself and entertainment.

Anyway, it is not up to me, but she certainly needs to increase it from $75 per fortnight, and I believe her children (and the rest of us) need to show her that we will not simply pay her bills whilst she spends her pension on herself.

Families......

 

[weg]

wylie, if she's on a Disability Support Pension she should be on $671 per fortnight.

I would say she would qualify for a reduction in rates and some bills as well. I don't know if you apply for this or if it automatically applies when going on the pension.

 

[wylie]

Thanks Weg. Her daughter said she thought it was about $500 per fortnight, but it is a disability pension, so it would likely be the higher figure you are quoting.

She has more than enough to take $200 off the top, I think. The trouble is that her mother will likely step in, pay the whole lot, and she will come to expect to be bailed out again and again. She is quite the actress, and loves to be the centre of attention, so it is difficult to work out what is real and what is an act.

I will get her daughter to check out whether she is getting that discount and if not, try to organise it.

Thanks.