Selling to Rent

I'm going to preface this with saying that I'm a nasty doom and gloomer housing bear. :D

One tactic used by those of an ursine persuasion has been to sell their PPOR and rent back a similar property. The theory is step off the market at the top, sit out the impending crash, and buy back at the bottom.

I took a look at some numbers the other day. I'm assuming that the selling (agent, legal fees) and buying (legal, surveys and stamp duties) for a property are both going to be around 5%, and to keep things simple, a property equivalent to that sold is rented that yields around 5%.

Looking at the historic data, the last crash in the UK started in 1989 and bottomed out in 1996. Ireland and the US have been falling since 2007, and not stopped yet.

Supposing our sell-to-renter called the market to perfection, then he or she could be out of the property market for somewhere between six and eight years, plus buying and selling costs for the old and new properties. Assuming a million dollar house, the total would come to somewhere between $400K and $500K, a 40% to 50% fall.

So getting it exactly right strikes me as being a break-even strategy. Reinvesting the proceeds of the sale might put you ahead, but the stockmarket isn't likely to return more than 5% to 10%, which will do little better than cover rent. And any housing crash is likely to be accompanied by a recession.

Gold, maybe? I'm pretty convinced that's in a bubble, and you'd be buying in at the greater fool stage. (Watch it hit $3000 this year, and I get proven wrong as usual. :()

The thing is that people are very bad at calling the top of the market. Various people attempted the STR strategy in the UK on the Motley Fool Property board between 2002 and 2006, and several ended up buying back in at a higher price. Merryn Somerset Webb (journalist and prominent housing bear) did in 2010 (link might be behind a paywall) having sold up in 2007, which makes the outcome even worse. :eek:

Other lessons? The 1989 to 1996 property market crash in the UK dropped pretty sharply for several years, then drifted down more slowly. It would probably work out better to buy in the latter phases, where the fall is less than rental costs, rather than trying to call the bottom.

It'll be interesting to do the calculation for a delayed purchase. I've held off buying a house because I think that they're too expensive, and I have a horrible suspicion that it'll have proven to be smarter to have bought five or six years ago over that time.
 
I'm going to preface this with saying that I'm a nasty doom and gloomer housing bear. :D

One tactic used by those of an ursine persuasion has been to sell their PPOR and rent back a similar property. The theory is step off the market at the top, sit out the impending crash, and buy back at the bottom.

.

I dont look at the numbers as much as the security and "peace" of owning your own home vs renting. Owning your own home means you can live as you want, you dont need to move unless you want to etc. That's something which is priceless.
I also think we undervalue the "investment" value of a PPOR. We just sold our second PPOR for nearly 3x what we bought it for 10 years earlier. Our first PPOR prior to that doubled in value in around 3 years. We've now upgraded to a better suburb, bought at the bottom of the market, and when we're ready to downsize in 10 years or so, I imagine we will get significantly more than what we paid for this house.
The cornerstone of our wealth creation has been the equity in our PPOR, and that's worked well for us.
 
The Irish wouldn't necessarily agree with you on that one Peggy. Prices there were down 15.6% last year.

Over the long term (ten to fifteen years), home ownership will be a winner in virtually any market conditions. The exceptions would be corner cases, such as the decades long Japanese slump.

I'm very much in agreement about security of tenure too. I got booted out of my last rental because the landlord needed it back for himself.

The downsides are that a home owner lacks flexibility to relocate for work, and as a leveraged investment, buying a property at the wrong time will bite you hard.
 
Panic selling from home owners in a slow market when they hear "a crash is just around the corner" is a self fulfilling prophecy.

Houses get listed in droves, discounting starts, people drop prices to sell "BEFORE THE CRASH HAPPENS!!!!!!!!!" and essentially drive their own values down and create their own price crash in doing so.
 
property crash

what if the property crash never comes? i have been hoarding cash in the bank waiting for property prices to dive as often predicted? If the market does not crash, then I will be screwed as keeping cash in the bank to be eaten away by bank fees and inflation is a sure road to financial oblivion.
 
Like I said, I haven't done the calculations for a delayed purchase. I suspect that it's also a risky strategy.

In many cases it's cheaper to rent than pay the interest on a mortgage. If the gross yield is 4% or 5%, and the mortgage rate is 6% or more, then your landlord is subsidising your accommodation.

The best thing would be to compare the upsides and downsides of renting and buying.

For the former the upsides are:
  • It's generally cheaper.
  • It's more flexible. If you want to move interstate for work then you don't need to sell up.
  • You don't have the downside risk of a property crash. In fact, quite the opposite.
The downsides are:
  • You won't end up owning a property.
  • If prices rise you make a notional "loss" if you buy later.
  • Lack of security of tenure.
  • Rents can, and will, rise over time with inflation.
For buying the upsides are:
  • If prices rise then you make a tax free capital gain.
  • If you've got a repayment mortgage then you will own the house in 25 or 30 years.
  • Security of tenure, being able to do what you want with the place, etc.
And the downsides:
  • You're making a leveraged investment, and if the market goes down (which it has in a number of other countries) then you'll take a serious financial hit.
  • It can be more expensive.
  • There is less flexibility, as transactional costs for trading a PPOR are expensive, and they are considered illiquid assets.
If you think that a big crash is coming then you could probably afford to rent for five or ten years, and still be ahead. Unfortunately should it happen then it'll be accompanied by a recession and possibly a reduction in the amount of finance available, making it harder to buy. :(

If you think that the market is going to remain stable, and you can afford a place that suits your needs for the long term, then it might be more sensible to buy.

I'm currently in the former camp, but part of that is down to moving around for work, and having found things to be a bit precarious for the last few years. (Currently in the UK, which has had a recession going on.)
 
Perhaps we could look at the issue from another perspective. If you keep your home you retain security of location, don't incur selling fees and aren't exposed to the risk that the crash never arrives.

If the crash does arrive, buy another property or two to take advantage of low prices.

FWIW, I think if there was going to be a crash, we'd have seen it by now.
 
Weren't there many who did this in the UK only to find that properties didn't crash as predicted and the cost of renting went up?

add: I see you covered that
The thing is that people are very bad at calling the top of the market. Various people attempted the STR strategy in the UK on the Motley Fool Property board between 2002 and 2006, and several ended up buying back in at a higher price. Merryn Somerset Webb (journalist and prominent housing bear) did in 2010 (link might be behind a paywall) having sold up in 2007, which makes the outcome even worse. :eek:

Link to the Merryn Somerset Webb without the paywall.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...bought&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au#axzz1nWpfj5sA
 
I'll be the first to admit that the UK market is rather puzzling. :confused:

Prices have fallen outside London and the Southeast, but neither rapidly nor significantly. They're dropping by maybe 5% per year. Prime London is up, the second tier in the capital, along with the cream of the commuter belt is either flat or up slightly. This offsets much of the falls elsewhere in the national statistics.

Rents are up in London because it's difficult to raise a mortgage these days.

It's looking like my strategy isn't paying off. :(
 
I'll stick with just buying a cheap house. Get all the fun of owning your own house with all the goodness of paying less than market rent.

We're out of the property market for a while anyway, unless something absolutely unmissable comes up. Which I can't see happening.
 
Ppor

I'm going to preface this with saying that I'm a nasty doom and gloomer housing bear. :D

One tactic used by those of an ursine persuasion has been to sell their PPOR and rent back a similar property. The theory is step off the market at the top, sit out the impending crash, and buy back at the bottom.

It really depends on where you live, I suppose. for example, I purpose built my PPOR and that was because after years of looking I could not get all that I wanted in the area I wanted. I have very specific needs though, so maybe this does not apply to you.

recently I have considered renting the house out due to the great recently returns......

Also moving is very difficult for me for health reasons.
 
I'd agree with what RumpledElf and vmay said.

If you can afford a house that will meet your needs for the next ten of fifteen years, and mortgage costs are similar to rent, or lower, then I reckon it's worth buying regardless of what the market does.

Regardless of what the market does, buying beats renting over a ten or fifteen year timeframe.

However, for a twenty or thirty something, I'd suggest that loading up on mortgage debt to buy a one or two bedroom unit yielding 3% to 4% isn't going to be clever.

It's cheaper to rent, and if a family comes along (which can be unexpected) then there isn't going to be space to accommodate them.
 
Hi Graemsay, the 20 something renter spends his money on what? Whereas the 20 something with a mortgage PAYS for his home & has very little left to spend on drinks or coffee or holidays.

Ten years later, the 30 something renter is still renting, and ranting, the 30 something homeowner has some % of his home.

KY
 
Generally (will always be exceptions)
rent is dead money.

I think if there is a group of friends/family members who cannot qualify for a house on their own, they should purchase one togther. Pay it off asap.
Sell it, split the difference..use the money for a downpayment on their own house.

Yesterday, I did look around USA "for sale" and am amazed at some of the prices.
If some Americans could think outside the box and share a place, they would be living for free almost.

Saw one 21 unit apt building for $18k.
 
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