The Story Thus Far....

[Monty Burns]

My flatmate totally lost it today with our real estate agent....

Thus far we have rented a place in the high end of Canberra in October last year. so far in that 9 months we have had the owners do 3 inspections and the realestate agent do 1. In the house we have had to have a number of repairs through no fault of our own as the owners did a dodgy reno. including one person being burnt by a hot water tap failing in the bath. In the beginning of May the ducted gas heating fan unit died and we have been without heating since then. turns out that this is a warranty repair. we have rung a number of times and written twice including quoting the tenancies ACT about heating repairs both times the RE agents have not even had the courtesy to respond even though we have asked them to.
Last week we received yet another request from the RE agent to do a house inspection. Which we expected under the lease. Today we received another letter from the agents requesting yet another inspection for the owners to do an inspection next week. so 2 inspections in one month..

my flatmate (who is a el2 in a public service legal team) let the RE agent have it with both barrels over both the heater still not being fixed and the abundance of inspections over and above what is legal under the ACT and also informed him that we are taking both the owners and the real estate agent to the tribunal.

Apparently the RE Agent was rather sheepish in his response.

She also informed him that between us both we have 4 IP's and wouldn't treat our tenants this way and we have never had a problem passing previous inspections.

We both love the house and don't want to move out but all we want is to enjoy the house and get the heater fixed.....

Lets see what the tribunal brings

 

[Ausprop]

this really demonstrates my belief that resi IPs are such complex investments that the rent yield should be 2 to 3 times what they are. the standard of care and their management should all be much better performed, however given the shoe string budgets available it's hardly surprising that all this aggravation results.

 

[steveadl]

I'm often astounded by

a) How much time some LL's seem to have, and how they treat their IP's like a child!

and

b) How long it takes some LL's to repair faults! If I'm informed there is something wrong, I'm either on the phone to get it sorted for me or if it's beyond my guys capabilities give the PM the go ahead to get the tradies in.

 

[13910]

That's messed up man. Stick it to them and keep us updated.

I've recently finished my term as a tenant, but have rented in Sydney since moving to Sydney in 2004 as an 18 year old. In that time I leased four houses (three of which were sold! Grr. This led me to buying a place) but during that time I didn't have a single inspection.

I'm not exactly a party animal, but nevertheless based on age group alone I was expecting clock-work tri monthly inspections. But not one.

Do they even have the right to come through that often? I remember my agreements always said the owner had a right to view the property once every three months. Obviously different state, different laws, but even when the house I was in was put on the market I didn't let them bring people through to view it any more than twice a month!

Cheers
Greg

 

[Collector]

That's messed up man. Stick it to them and keep us updated.

I've recently finished my term as a tenant, but have rented in Sydney since moving to Sydney in 2004 as an 18 year old. In that time I leased four houses (three of which were sold! Grr. This led me to buying a place) but during that time I didn't have a single inspection.

I'm not exactly a party animal, but nevertheless based on age group alone I was expecting clock-work tri monthly inspections. But not one.

Do they even have the right to come through that often? I remember my agreements always said the owner had a right to view the property once every three months. Obviously different state, different laws, but even when the house I was in was put on the market I didn't let them bring people through to view it any more than twice a month!

Cheers
Greg

The ACT allows for 4 internal inspections in a 12 month period - they can do 4 in a week - but only 4 in a year - don't need to be spaced out.

I'm not surprised that no inspections were done - I have taken over so many managements and have had comments from tenants where there previous PM never inspected the property in the period they were there.

BTW - in NSW the ACT states that a PM must inspect the managed property at least once every 12 months.

 

[Monty Burns]

http://www.tenantsact.org.au/Advice/access.html

The tenancy ACT States that
Routine Inspections
The landlord or agent can conduct routine inspections twice a year (cl77). Additionally they are entitled to an initial inspection at the beginning of your tenancy (within the first month) and a final inspection in the last month of your tenancy before you vacate (cl78).

And Since we have not given notice that we want to move out that leaves it with 2 inspections that they can do. It is good knowing the rules.

With my properties I give authorisation for any repairs as soon as I am notified.
I would fire any PM if a tenant of mine went without heating in sub zero temps for 8 weeks.

 

[13910]

One thing is for sure, being a tenant helps you understand the property manager game better which proves useful on many levels when it comes to opening an investment property. Well...once I find an investment property it will

I believe it should be a sliding scale. At first I would want one at three months, then one six months later. If all is going well, then they can slide out to yearly. I believe a good tenant should be rewarded, not pissed off.

As for repairs - if something is broken it should be fixed in a timely manor. If it's part of the deal that the place comes with a working dishwasher, for instance, then after that dishwasher fails to work and the LL fails to fix it in a reasonable time the tenant should expect a discounted rent or the option to break the contract free of charge IMO.

Cheers
Greg

 

[Collector]

http://www.tenantsact.org.au/Advice/access.html

The tenancy ACT States that
Routine Inspections
The landlord or agent can conduct routine inspections twice a year (cl77). Additionally they are entitled to an initial inspection at the beginning of your tenancy (within the first month) and a final inspection in the last month of your tenancy before you vacate (cl78).

And Since we have not given notice that we want to move out that leaves it with 2 inspections that they can do. It is good knowing the rules.

With my properties I give authorisation for any repairs as soon as I am notified.
I would fire any PM if a tenant of mine went without heating in sub zero temps for 8 weeks.

Did not know the ACT ACT. (seeing double)

My advice of 4 per year was in response to uncoversports' post in relation to the NSW ACT.


I do hope it goes well for you monty and I look forward to following this saga.

 

[Ridin-High]

this really demonstrates my belief that resi IPs are such complex investments that the rent yield should be 2 to 3 times what they are. the standard of care and their management should all be much better performed, however given the shoe string budgets available it's hardly surprising that all this aggravation results.

You are a way more advanced investor then me, but don't seem to understand that rental yield isn't the only reason people invest in residential property. Read an interesting article from my MB about commercial the other night.

- Access to funds (no 95% LVR for commercial, no pro package's, large application fees, risk fees, valuation fee's, length of loan shorter, higher interest rates)
- Long vacantcy is a real risk with commercial, unless you have a large cash reserve in can be a scary place to be with no tenant.


Is comm IP on my radar, yes, but i won't let one investment if it fails bring the whole portfolio come crumbling down. Small steps

 

[Monty Burns]

Update.....

I had reason to go to the RE Agents this morning and tore shreds off of them in regard to the heating and the over abundance of inspections that they want to do. I may have gone over board. But I did manage to get the details of who was doing the work. Contacting them they were only notified late last month about the repairs so we are still waiting for the slot in their time table to be able to fit into.

This is a copy of the email my flat mate sent to the RE Agents this morning complaining about their service.

Hello

As per my conversation with Nick last night, I am willing for the owners to inspect the property on 9 July ONLY. We received the letter yesterday (2 July) and the 9th of the July means that we have had the required 7 days notice. I will be in attendance for the inspection.

I would we have now had 4 house inspections since we moved into the property. The first inspection was the 1 month inspection. The owner (Janet) then visited the property in late December/January and went through all of the house. We then had another inspection in late April, for which we received ONE day's notice and thus agreed only that the gardens be inspected. We have then agreed to this latest inspection. The owners are allowed a maximum of two inspections (other than to view repairs) after the initial inspection; it is arguable that this latest inspection by them is not lawful. I am only agreeing to it as I wish to be present and hand some documents to the owners on the date. It was confirmed with Barry this morning that the inspection originally scheduled on 23 July has been cancelled. Could you please inform the owners that they MUST NOT request any further inspections prior to the end of the lease, as they are bordering on harassment.

You may also wish to advise the owners that one of the documents that I will be handing them on Thursday next week is a copy of the Tenancy Dispute that we are lodging with the Tribunal today, where we are requesting a reduction in the rent of $100-$200 per week for the period that we have been/will be without heating. The house is freezing, the landlords have completely failed in their legal obligations to organise a repair and we have been deprived of the enjoyment of the house due to their inaction (and I write this while sitting here shivering in a freezing cold house).

I would also like to point out the considerable distress both their and your actions are causing us. We have been freezing for nearly two months now, we have had no responses to e-mails on the subject, we have had to visit your office and/or phone every single day to get any action undertaken taken on fixing the heating and we have eventually had to obtain the direct details of the heating repair company and phone then ourselves to determine that a repair has actually been organised (even though we haven't yet had it done and have no timeframe) because we have not been able to get any confirmation from you on what is happening. During the course of this debacle, we have received two letters from you and now the rent receipts today. The first letter was the notice of the inspection of 23 July; fine, we know it's scheduled, we'll deal. The second letter is another one for another inspection on the 8th by the owners; this not only didn't say that the one of the 23rd would thus be cancelled, it indicates that the owners WHO HAVE COMPLETELY FAILED IN THEIR LEGAL OBLIGATIONS AS LANDLORDS wish to come and look at our property themselves for no reason we can ascertain. We have been treated as bad tenants by the owners, who have questioned every repair as if we are deliberately damaging the house, and have complained about the fact that we weren't spending enough on water. We are currently operating on Stage 3 water restrictions and have been watering the garden diligently as per those restrictions, as well as taking care of them as best we can in extremely difficult drought/heatwave conditions and yet we have been treated as if we have deliberately failed to water the garden and are seeking to damage them. To receive a letter from you stating they wish to come and inspect the property without even a mention of the problems we've had or an apology for the delay in fixing the heating added insult to injury and left me in a state of considerable distress last night, as I couldn't even be sure that we weren't going to have 2 inspections in two weeks. The rent receipts then arrived today telling me that we have a balance due of $149.45. WE DO NOT OWE ANY MONEY - considering the problems we've been having, I would like the record corrected. I assume these amounts are the two water bills that the landlords are supposed to pay, but they are now down as us owing money and I want that removed from our records.

So, to summarise: we agree that the house can be inspected by the owners but ONLY on 9 July. I will be present at that inspection and I will be handing the owners some documents. We are also notifying you that we are lodging a Tenancy Dispute with the Tribunal to have a rent reduction for the period that we have been/will be without heating, requesting a reduction of $100-$200 per week in the rent payable. We would like the outstanding amount owing listed on the rent receipts removed from our records.

I would request that you acknowledge receipt of this e-mail, but you've never responded to anything else I've sent you, so it's probably completely pointless to ask.

Amanda

 

[Collector]

Update.....

I had reason to go to the RE Agents this morning and tore shreds off of them in regard to the heating and the over abundance of inspections that they want to do. I may have gone over board. But I did manage to get the details of who was doing the work. Contacting them they were only notified late last month about the repairs so we are still waiting for the slot in their time table to be able to fit into.

This is a copy of the email my flat mate sent to the RE Agents this morning complaining about their service.

Hello

As per my conversation with Nick last night, I am willing for the owners to inspect the property on 9 July ONLY. We received the letter yesterday (2 July) and the 9th of the July means that we have had the required 7 days notice. I will be in attendance for the inspection.

I would we have now had 4 house inspections since we moved into the property. The first inspection was the 1 month inspection. The owner (Janet) then visited the property in late December/January and went through all of the house. We then had another inspection in late April, for which we received ONE day's notice and thus agreed only that the gardens be inspected. We have then agreed to this latest inspection. The owners are allowed a maximum of two inspections (other than to view repairs) after the initial inspection; it is arguable that this latest inspection by them is not lawful. I am only agreeing to it as I wish to be present and hand some documents to the owners on the date. It was confirmed with Barry this morning that the inspection originally scheduled on 23 July has been cancelled. Could you please inform the owners that they MUST NOT request any further inspections prior to the end of the lease, as they are bordering on harassment.

You may also wish to advise the owners that one of the documents that I will be handing them on Thursday next week is a copy of the Tenancy Dispute that we are lodging with the Tribunal today, where we are requesting a reduction in the rent of $100-$200 per week for the period that we have been/will be without heating. The house is freezing, the landlords have completely failed in their legal obligations to organise a repair and we have been deprived of the enjoyment of the house due to their inaction (and I write this while sitting here shivering in a freezing cold house).

I would also like to point out the considerable distress both their and your actions are causing us. We have been freezing for nearly two months now, we have had no responses to e-mails on the subject, we have had to visit your office and/or phone every single day to get any action undertaken taken on fixing the heating and we have eventually had to obtain the direct details of the heating repair company and phone then ourselves to determine that a repair has actually been organised (even though we haven't yet had it done and have no timeframe) because we have not been able to get any confirmation from you on what is happening. During the course of this debacle, we have received two letters from you and now the rent receipts today. The first letter was the notice of the inspection of 23 July; fine, we know it's scheduled, we'll deal. The second letter is another one for another inspection on the 8th by the owners; this not only didn't say that the one of the 23rd would thus be cancelled, it indicates that the owners WHO HAVE COMPLETELY FAILED IN THEIR LEGAL OBLIGATIONS AS LANDLORDS wish to come and look at our property themselves for no reason we can ascertain. We have been treated as bad tenants by the owners, who have questioned every repair as if we are deliberately damaging the house, and have complained about the fact that we weren't spending enough on water. We are currently operating on Stage 3 water restrictions and have been watering the garden diligently as per those restrictions, as well as taking care of them as best we can in extremely difficult drought/heatwave conditions and yet we have been treated as if we have deliberately failed to water the garden and are seeking to damage them. To receive a letter from you stating they wish to come and inspect the property without even a mention of the problems we've had or an apology for the delay in fixing the heating added insult to injury and left me in a state of considerable distress last night, as I couldn't even be sure that we weren't going to have 2 inspections in two weeks. The rent receipts then arrived today telling me that we have a balance due of $149.45. WE DO NOT OWE ANY MONEY - considering the problems we've been having, I would like the record corrected. I assume these amounts are the two water bills that the landlords are supposed to pay, but they are now down as us owing money and I want that removed from our records.

So, to summarise: we agree that the house can be inspected by the owners but ONLY on 9 July. I will be present at that inspection and I will be handing the owners some documents. We are also notifying you that we are lodging a Tenancy Dispute with the Tribunal to have a rent reduction for the period that we have been/will be without heating, requesting a reduction of $100-$200 per week in the rent payable. We would like the outstanding amount owing listed on the rent receipts removed from our records.

I would request that you acknowledge receipt of this e-mail, but you've never responded to anything else I've sent you, so it's probably completely pointless to ask.

Amanda

I think that you/your flat mate are getting a little too emotional.

Understandably.....


However I don't think that email is going to help you in any way.


You have combined all the issues into one big problem - the tribunal will see that once the agent presents this email to them (which they will).


1) You would have been better off applying to the tribunal and not advising the agency/landlord - let the tribunal do that.

2) Email to agency stating that they have already inspected the property 3 times (2 internal, 1 external) within the past 6 months and that the ACT permits 2 inspections per year and that you believe that you are breaching our right to quiet enjoyment and privacy.

3) 2nd email requesting details of the amount outstanding so that you can investigate.


Treat this problems separate - that way they remain small - put them together and you will burnout.

 

[Ridin-High]

Monty burns im sure you and your flat mate own jumpers and blankets, what would an adult do? Use them to keep warm?

100-200 per week? which one is it 100 or 200, or did those numbers just sound good in your head.

If you wasn't happy about the inspections just say they can't come in and refer them to the lease/legislation

 

[Ausprop]

You are a way more advanced investor then me,

don't assume too much! if I am so great I wouldn't be here

but don't seem to understand that rental yield isn't the only reason people invest in residential property.

on the contrary, cap growth set me up. however with the glory years (25 or so) of credit expansion now reversing, what else is there to invest for other than yield or deflation of debt?

- Access to funds (no 95% LVR for commercial, no pro package's, large application fees, risk fees, valuation fee's, length of loan shorter, higher interest rates)
- Long vacantcy is a real risk with commercial, unless you have a large cash reserve in can be a scary place to be with no tenant.
Is comm IP on my radar, yes, but i won't let one investment if it fails bring the whole portfolio come crumbling down. Small steps

absolutely - but if you get 1 comm investment right you really don't need your resi. I look at retirees sitting on their blue chip industrial units etc pulling in strong net cash flow with envy. Meanwhile I am back off to Mandurah tomorrow because the tenants can't be bothered working out the retic timer (total sprinkler ban in WA now) and the neighbours love to dob me in to the water corp.

I just want to make people aware of the downsides of this caper and get the message out there that rents are stupidly cheap.

 

[Perp]

However I don't think that email is going to help you in any way.

Agreed. Combining separate grievances into one big "pissed off" issue is a classic error when people are aggrieved. It makes you look irrational. Keep the issues separate.

 

[shuggy]

Very unprofesionally written letter.
Something like this should have been proof read before sending off.
Too emotive. Too long winded.
Good luck with it though.

This is a copy of the email my flat mate sent to the RE Agents this morning complaining about their service.

Hello

As per my conversation with Nick last night, I am willing for the owners to inspect the property on 9 July ONLY. We received the letter yesterday (2 July) and the 9th of the July means that we have had the required 7 days notice. I will be in attendance for the inspection.

I would we have now had 4 house inspections since we moved into the property. The first inspection was the 1 month inspection. The owner (Janet) then visited the property in late December/January and went through all of the house. We then had another inspection in late April, for which we received ONE day's notice and thus agreed only that the gardens be inspected. We have then agreed to this latest inspection. The owners are allowed a maximum of two inspections (other than to view repairs) after the initial inspection; it is arguable that this latest inspection by them is not lawful. I am only agreeing to it as I wish to be present and hand some documents to the owners on the date. It was confirmed with Barry this morning that the inspection originally scheduled on 23 July has been cancelled. Could you please inform the owners that they MUST NOT request any further inspections prior to the end of the lease, as they are bordering on harassment.

You may also wish to advise the owners that one of the documents that I will be handing them on Thursday next week is a copy of the Tenancy Dispute that we are lodging with the Tribunal today, where we are requesting a reduction in the rent of $100-$200 per week for the period that we have been/will be without heating. The house is freezing, the landlords have completely failed in their legal obligations to organise a repair and we have been deprived of the enjoyment of the house due to their inaction (and I write this while sitting here shivering in a freezing cold house).

I would also like to point out the considerable distress both their and your actions are causing us. We have been freezing for nearly two months now, we have had no responses to e-mails on the subject, we have had to visit your office and/or phone every single day to get any action undertaken taken on fixing the heating and we have eventually had to obtain the direct details of the heating repair company and phone then ourselves to determine that a repair has actually been organised (even though we haven't yet had it done and have no timeframe) because we have not been able to get any confirmation from you on what is happening. During the course of this debacle, we have received two letters from you and now the rent receipts today. The first letter was the notice of the inspection of 23 July; fine, we know it's scheduled, we'll deal. The second letter is another one for another inspection on the 8th by the owners; this not only didn't say that the one of the 23rd would thus be cancelled, it indicates that the owners WHO HAVE COMPLETELY FAILED IN THEIR LEGAL OBLIGATIONS AS LANDLORDS wish to come and look at our property themselves for no reason we can ascertain. We have been treated as bad tenants by the owners, who have questioned every repair as if we are deliberately damaging the house, and have complained about the fact that we weren't spending enough on water. We are currently operating on Stage 3 water restrictions and have been watering the garden diligently as per those restrictions, as well as taking care of them as best we can in extremely difficult drought/heatwave conditions and yet we have been treated as if we have deliberately failed to water the garden and are seeking to damage them. To receive a letter from you stating they wish to come and inspect the property without even a mention of the problems we've had or an apology for the delay in fixing the heating added insult to injury and left me in a state of considerable distress last night, as I couldn't even be sure that we weren't going to have 2 inspections in two weeks. The rent receipts then arrived today telling me that we have a balance due of $149.45. WE DO NOT OWE ANY MONEY - considering the problems we've been having, I would like the record corrected. I assume these amounts are the two water bills that the landlords are supposed to pay, but they are now down as us owing money and I want that removed from our records.

So, to summarise: we agree that the house can be inspected by the owners but ONLY on 9 July. I will be present at that inspection and I will be handing the owners some documents. We are also notifying you that we are lodging a Tenancy Dispute with the Tribunal to have a rent reduction for the period that we have been/will be without heating, requesting a reduction of $100-$200 per week in the rent payable. We would like the outstanding amount owing listed on the rent receipts removed from our records.

I would request that you acknowledge receipt of this e-mail, but you've never responded to anything else I've sent you, so it's probably completely pointless to ask.

Amanda

 

[gg1965]

I didn't want to say anything at first, but since it has already been mentioned - I found the email/letter to be very hard to read.

It has some very long sentences, there was one very big paragraph in it that introduced a whole new subject (ie water usage), and the structure, grammar and wording is questionable. Plus it seems to go around in circles - not clear and concise.

Maybe the person who wrote it was rather angry at the time - but if that was the case, then they should've stopped and counted to 60 before putting pen to paper (or finger to keyboard).

Don't get me wrong, it sounds as though the LL and agent have a case to answer for, but I would've put more thought into the structure and contents of the letter.


Thanks

g

 

[WASP]

. Meanwhile I am back off to Mandurah tomorrow because the tenants can't be bothered working out the retic timer (total sprinkler ban in WA now) and the neighbours love to dob me in to the water corp.
.

Who is at fault here if the property gets dobbed in, the owner or the tenant?

In the weekend paper there has been a huge flurry of dob-ins reported since the 2 month total sprinkler ban

 

[handyandy]

Seems like emotions on both sides.

When it became evident that the repair was not to be done quickly why were separate heaters not discussed?

The LL is obviously very attached to the property (suspect only property and beloved PPOR previously) and this could have been exploited by the tenant instead it has just been like a red rag to a bull with both parties in their corners.

I am still confused about the hot water tap falling off - a hot water tap wouldn't fall off but would be blasted off with streams of water following. Not a little burnt but fried. I think what you are implying is that the handle fell of!!! Big deal put it back on hardly indicates a sloppy reno.


cheers

PS if you were my tenant than you would not be staying in the property for any length beyond the current lease but then again I don't encourage the PM to inspect and we get enough of a feel for the condition at repair times.

 

[Monty Burns]

With the hot water tap the whole tap unit fell out of the wall.
so instead of the hot water coming out of the spout it was coming
out of the wall to the shock of the person who was in the bath, luckily
it was not a child. The plumber who came to fix the problem said that
both taps had been put in incorrectly as well as the plumbing was set up
with the hot and cold on the wrong sides.

Our idea of the owners is that it is there PPOR and they are still thinking of
the house as theirs and not as an investment. We have also accepted that
we may not be wanted here after the lease is up and will have to move.
Which is a shame as we are good tenants and it is a nice house.

It is hard not to get emotional when you are being treated badly by the
owners/PM. This property is in the upper end of the market. So we would
expect repairs to be effected in a timely matter. Where possible we look
after repairs our selves.

The first 2 emails that were sent requesting that the heater be repaired
were not emotional emails and they dealt with the one issue.
After going to the offices on Friday I requested all of the phone numbers for
who was supposedly dealing with the repairs. This was were we found out
that the first record they have of being contacted was 5 weeks after the
initial call from us informing them of the failed heater.

I think part of the problem is the PM is just saying yes to every request of
the owners without telling them the rules as dictated by the ACT.
Including the fact that a repair to heaters in Canberra (don't know about
elsewhere) is classed as an urgent repair.

 

[Savanna100]

Monty burns im sure you and your flat mate own jumpers and blankets, what would an adult do? Use them to keep warm?

100-200 per week? which one is it 100 or 200, or did those numbers just sound good in your head.

If you wasn't happy about the inspections just say they can't come in and refer them to the lease/legislation

I wonder if you realise that the low temprature levels we get here are often beyond jumpers and blankets. It is often between zero and minus 9 degrees on midwinter nights, the sort of cold where it can hurt your lungs to breathe. Heating is an absolute essential in Canberra in midwinter. Myabe if it was a broken dishwasher or something like that, you could maybe understand the slowness of the LL but heating here in June, July and August is almost a matter of survival and must be operable.