Wanting advice on renting a PROR and buying IPs

We are currently in the midst of selling our property and are confident that we will walk away with approx $300k after sale costs. We are wanting to rent a house (as we beleive our house requirements will change several times over the next 8years), and purchase IP (we currently have 1 IP). We are going to have to pay cash deposits for each IP (we do not have enough equity in our only IP). I am wanting to know how much cash should be keep in reserve and how much should we spend on IPs? Should we invest the left oer cash into a savings deposit such as ING?

Any feedback is welcomed.
 
Hi Lilli,

We do exactly what you're planning to do - rent ourselves while purchasing IP's. We keep all the spare cash for deposits/costs in our offsets accounts against the IP's. Some may suggest otherwise, as you're reducing your deductible debt - however putting the tax in an ING account means you'll have to pay tax on the interest, and you won't get as high of an interest rate as you will in your offset account (which is essentially tax free interest). I've done the calcs a few times, and it always comes out better to keep the funds in the offset account.

Cheers
Jen
 
Thanks Jen,

So do you mind me asking how many IPs you have?

How do you fnd renting? Do you have a family?

Do you split your money into different offset acounts throughout your portfolio then? So would we be best paying 10% deposit for each property and then splitting the left over cash between the properties into offset accounts?


Thanks
 
I rent and put all my spare cash/equity into building up my portfolio of IP's.
I can rent a home cheaper than I can own one and all my debt is tax deductable.
It works for me because I am no longer "attached" to the idea of home ownership. Been there, done that. I may change my mind on that in the future, but not for some time, yet.
I have kids who stay with me sometimes and they don't seem to mind if I own or rent.
I'm single, so I don't have to make decisions with someone elses needs and comfort zone in mind.
We all have different circumstances, objectives and risk profiles. As the Americans say YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary).
Renting while investing in IP's is a valid strategy, but relies on one not being emotionally attached to the concept of home ownership. It's not a strategy for everyone, but it works for me, at the moment.
 
Thanks Rob,

My husband and I like the idea of renting as we would like to move to the city for a few years and then perhaps back to the burbs when we have kids. We are just unsure what to do with the $300k - we want to have some as backup for when we have kids and are on single income for a while...
 
My pleasure :)
Offset Account. That's where to keep the spare cash. Offset accounts rock!
You can invest however much you like into IP's, depending on you objectives and future plans. You are the only one who can say how much.
What you plan to do has to resonate with you and allow you to sleep at night without worrying.
 

Margaret Lomas


May 2008 - Issue 2

Margaret Lomas discusses whether you should buy your own home or rent and become a landlord, considering the next 12 to 18 months will offer up some property bargains


I am often asked by potential property investors considering buying a home of their own whether they should buy an owner-occupied or an investment property first.

With interest rates rising and rental yields still relatively low, it is important property buyers consider the answer to this question considering two major issues – the emotional one and the financial.

For many people, the need to own a home in which they can freely bang nails into the wall, paint the bedroom orange or have all manner of wild parties, is very strong.

Raised by parents whose own parents taught them to save hard and, at all costs, access the great Australian dream, the Y and Zen generation have been instilled with a notion that, unless you can own your own home, you are not financially secure.

For baby boomers like me, the ability to get into our first home as soon as we were married was relatively easy. With plenty of land available for release by the land commission and builders offering small, but cheap, project homes, it was a natural progression to include, as part of our wedding plans, the purchase or building of a new home.

While finance may have been difficult to access, it certainly wasn’t impossible for those willing to crawl on their hands and knees to the bank and offer the soul of their first born in return for a loan at an undisclosed interest rate.

We then built our homes, amazingly held on to them while interest rates peaked at 18 per cent, then enjoyed an investing freedom that the increased equity brought to us during the past 15 years of economic abundance.

Now things are not so clear cut.

Interest rates are rocky and the price of homes is startlingly high. The difference in value between properties at the lower end and those at the higher end is greater than ever before, with growth remaining strong in pockets while it disappears altogether in other areas.

It is little wonder then, that those yet to enter the market are confused as to exactly how to do so, and are probably also not convinced that they should do so at all.

To make the decision, potential buyers must consider two main things:

The emotional argument

Are you prepared to live in property where you are restricted as to exactly what you can do?

Do you feel comfortable knowing that you do not necessarily have tenure, and at the end of each lease period you may be at risk of eviction, or of a rental increase which may be more than you can afford?

Most states do have laws which prevent landlords from increasing rents between lease periods by an unreasonable amount. The problem is, however, in the current market, it is difficult to establish what reasonable is.

With high demand for rentals in many areas, landlords have been enjoying the ability to ask top dollar, with some reports recounting bidding wars and rental auctions for scarce property.

If you are not prepared to be a part of this and you have established, after reading the next section, that financially you are in a position to buy your own home, then you may wish to do so in the coming months.

The greatest opportunity for property bargains will be seen in the next 12 to 18 months, peaking around the nine-month mark when mortgage-stressed vendors realise they can’t wait any longer and drop their asking price.

However, before making this decision it is crucial that you fully explore the financial impact.


The financial argument

A number of reasons, such as work or family, could dictate a desire to live in a particular area. The area, however, you have chosen in which to buy your home is prohibitive from a financial point of view.

When I was first buying, the cost to rent was very similar to the cost to buy. Mortgage repayments pretty much matched rent payments and, rather than help an investor to own more property by paying his or her mortgage, we would be far better to dig deep for a deposit and use our weekly commitment to repay our own mortgages.

These days, this doesn’t really apply. Some areas with high price tags have relatively low rental yields, making the option to rent most probably a better one.

It is common for some areas in the western suburbs of Sydney, for example, to have rental yields of around 5.5 per cent, while some areas in the eastern suburbs are sitting at around 3 per cent.

With interest rates currently around 9 per cent, buyers must consider whether the renting option may be more financially sound than the buying one.


EXAMPLE ONE

Kaye and Mark really want to live in Avalon. They have a deposit of $200,000. The average house price is $1,085,000. They have found a suitable four-bedroom property that they can buy for $980,000.

The interest repayments on the loan of $830,000 ($980,000 purchase price plus $50,000 costs and stamp duties, less deposit of $200,000) at 8.61 per cent will be $1374 per week, or $71, 462 per annum.

While past growth rates are never an indication of future growth rates, if we considered that the reported past trend for growth in Avalon has been 7.3 per cent, we might assume that, after 10 years, the property may be worth $1,847,665 ($867,665 increase).

Considering total interest payments of $714,620, the net gain for Kaye and Mark after committing the original $200,000 and the interest repayments is $153,045.


EXAMPLE TWO


Vince and Stephanie also really want to live in Avalon, as this is where Vince’s family live and he works nearby. They decide to rent and use their $200,000 to become landlords.

They find a four-bedroom home in Avalon which rents for $700 a week, or $36,400 per annum. With the $200,000 deposit they have, they buy property in:

Elizabeth, SA - $185,000 purchase price (total $195,000 with costs)

- $190 per week rent return ($9880 per annum)

- Yearly costs $3000

- Growth trend 11.3 per cent



Woodridge, QLD - $190,000 purchase price (total $200,000 with costs)

- $210 per week rent return ($10,920 per annum)

- Yearly costs $3,000

- Growth trend 10 per cent



Mildura, Vic - $175,000 purchase price (total $182,000 with costs)

- $190 per week rent return ($9880 per annum)

- Yearly costs $2,500

- Growth trend 8.5 per cent



Melton, Vic - $185,000 purchase price (total $195,000 with costs)

- $195 per week rent return ($10,140 per annum)

- Yearly costs $2500

- Growth trend 8.3 per cent



Liverpool, NSW - $180,000 purchase price (total $190,000 with costs)

- $190 per week rent return ($9880 per annum)

- Yearly costs $3000

- Growth trend 7.8 per cent


NB: All costs are estimates. Growth trends supplied by Australian Property Monitors. Properties and rental returns are from properties found on www.realestate.com.au). Interest rate 8.61 per cent.

The total spent on these properties was $962,000, making a total loan after deposit of $762,000. The total interest repayment is $62,179 and the total other costs are $14,000, totaling $76,179.

As the total income will be $50,700 per annum, Vince and Stephanie, who are in the 30 per cent tax bracket, will receive a tax refund, on the loss, of $7,643, leaving them to meet the shortfall of $17,836 from their own funds.

In reality, they probably would have depreciation benefits on all of these properties, which would boost their tax refund, but for this example let’s just assume they have no additional benefits.

The ability to spread the investments over many different markets has meant that they have accessed differing growth rates and minimised some risk of vacancy by having several cheaper properties rather than one more expensive.

After 10 years:

According to the reported growth trends, the total property value will be $2,048,467, which represents a total gain of $1,133,467.

Total cost of holding these investments has been $178,360. In addition they have had to pay rent of $364,000.

In total, they have paid out $542,360, giving them a net gain of $591,107.

If we evened this up a little more and only applied growth rates to the entire portfolio of 7.3 per cent (as in Avalon), Stephanie and Vince would reach the 10-year mark with $1,851,050 of property, for a net gain of $393,690.

This is more than 2.5 times the gain that Kaye and Mark would make by buying their own property.

And both couples have enjoyed living in Avalon.


Summary


The important thing that all property buyers must do is to establish the financial cost of their dreams and goals. Before deciding what you would like to do, remember these important points:

1. Depending on the cost of property in the area that you need to live, it may be more prudent to rent.

2. If you do rent, you must consider getting into the property market as a landlord. You need some type of investment strategy that will allow you to be using capital growth to accelerate your savings.

3. There is no sense saving on loan repayments by renting a cheaper rental if you are only going to spend what you save. If you think you will do this, then buying is the better option.

4. You must ascertain the actual true cost of home ownership to you. Can you afford the repayments or will you struggle when interest rates go up? As a landlord, at least you may have the option of increasing rents to help you pay for interest rate rises, and you also have a tax offset with each rise which reduces the actual cost of that rise. As a home owner, it is you who must meet the extra repayments.

5. If you don’t care where you live, some areas have a similar net cost to rent as it would to own. If this is the case, ownership may be the better option.

Approaching the issue using both your head and your heart may save you the pain of joining the ever increasing ranks of the mortgage stressed.

And remember, just because property in your area is now out of your reach, this does not mean you can’t enter the property market. We still have many affordable areas in Australia and becoming a landlord may be a very viable option.
 
Thanks Jen,

So do you mind me asking how many IPs you have?

How do you fnd renting? Do you have a family?

Do you split your money into different offset acounts throughout your portfolio then? So would we be best paying 10% deposit for each property and then splitting the left over cash between the properties into offset accounts?


Thanks

Hi Lilli,

Firstly, great Margaret Lomas post!! So much info!

To answer your ?'s:

1) We have 3 IP's, an Option on a 4th and looking at purchasing the 5th (and maybe 6th) within the next 3-6 months.

2) Renting - I'm enjoying it less and less - actually the place we're in now is great - but it's freezing and I wish we owned it so I could install heating! I also HATE moving (with a passion) - yet we've moved 3 times in the past 2 years - once due to a landlord selling, twice due to work/other commitments (which makes renting good for our situation) - although if it was our PPOR, we probably wouldn't have been willing to move for work - so renting has had a factor in our flexibility. Saying that, we're actually looking at finally purchasing the PPOR in the next couple of years, but the goal is to buy at least 2 more IP's before that happens....in the meantime, we're renting a property with about a 2.5% yield - so we're living in a much nicer home than we would have had we purchased a PPOR. As long as we don't have to move again, I'm happy to rent for another couple of years - the next time we move, it's final (PPOR!).

3) We're married, but no children yet. Once we have kids, I'm settling - I hate moving the two of us - can't imagine doing so with kids - plus it's harder on kids than on us, and I'd be afraid of the impact on them - so we'll have the PPOR (or a VERY long-term lease) once we expand the family.

4) I think we do things a bit differently than most - we have 3 offset accounts. Offset #1 is against Loan #1 which is in both my husband and my name and because I'm the lowest income earner, the majority of our cash is in Offset #1. This is also our everyday transaction account, and the funds we will eventually use for the deposit on our PPOR one day. Once we do purchase a PPOR, all the cash in Offset #1 (less a buffer) will move into an offset account against the PPOR to make it more tax-effective. Offset #2 and #3 are against Loan's #2 and #3 which are in my husband's name (not quite that simple, which is why we need 2 more, but still against higher income earners name) - therefore, we have a buffer amount in these offsets (this is my SANF as the rent comes in and interest and expenses come out of these accounts to keep things organised), but the majority of cash remains in Offset #1.

5) I'd take it one step at a time to see what you require. I think the deposit amount/allocation of offset account amount depends on your situation, property price, and property purchase structure. We have 3 Offsets, for instance, but won't be needing anymore and so will probably go for cheaper loans without offsets for the next IP's . Also to take into consideration is your SANF, the LMI, rental income, stamp duty, etc. In reality, you can have 1 offset account (and main transaction account) with as many properties loans as you want if all the loan structures are the same (i.e. no tax-effectiveness for keeping funds in one offset vs another) - but my suggestion would be to stucture if effectively for tax-time. If that means 1 offset, 2 offsets, 3 offsets - whatever. If all the rental income/property expenses comes out of one Offset account (rather than mixing it with the everyday transaction account) you will be much happier at tax time! Either way, if you choose to have a PPOR - you will definitly want the majority of the cash to be in that Offset (much more tax-effective!).

Some people/advisors will suggest not to use Offset accounts against your invest properties because you're reducing your non-deductible debt (and there's no growth potential in that cash) - however, I find it the most risk-free, tax-free, highest return on cash you'll find anywhere (except against a PPOR offset account)!!

Cheers,
Jen
 
Thanks Jen for your comments.

I agree that renting would be find until you have children - babies can live anywhere however if you want to start sending them to kinder, primary school etc... I imagine it would be quite painful moving. Fortunately it will be a few years before we are in that situation and we therefore believe renting will be best for us for both flexability and also financially so we can build up our portfolio.

A lot of friends and family have been asking us if we have found a house to purchase yet and when I have told them we are planning on renting and investing our money in IP I have had negative feedback. People are obsessed on the great Australian dream! Once I have explained the pros and cons people seem interested to hear more. Have you found that?
 
.....- however, I find it the most risk-free, tax-free, highest return on cash you'll find anywhere (except against a PPOR offset account)

I agree 100%.

My wife and I are about to do this, our PPOR has just been listed and we're looking to buy 2-3 IP and have them neutrally geared or slightly negatively geared.
My wife is currently on maternity leave so we're looking for a minimal impact on our cash flow until she goes back to work.

To the people that use this strategy,
What % do you put down as a deposit?
Do you pay LMI?
Have you considered putting enough cash in a term deposit and using that as equity to borrow 100% of purchase price? Once the value of the IP increase you should be able to get the bank to release the security (term deposit) and then just stick it back into an offset account.
The aim of my game is to put as little deposit down as possible whilst putting the maximum amount into an offset account to be accessed when needed for a ppor in a couple of years.
 
To the people that use this strategy,
What % do you put down as a deposit?
Do you pay LMI?
Have you considered putting enough cash in a term deposit and using that as equity to borrow 100% of purchase price? Once the value of the IP increase you should be able to get the bank to release the security (term deposit) and then just stick it back into an offset account.
The aim of my game is to put as little deposit down as possible whilst putting the maximum amount into an offset account to be accessed when needed for a ppor in a couple of years.


I would also be interested what % of deposit people use and other associated costs.
 
What i dont understand is how ppl can keep purchasing ip's without selling,
which alot of ppl preach not too sell yet they can continue purchasing
eg if you had 3 ip's and they were neg gearded and your paying lets say $1000 per ip out of pocket (while tenet in it) how can ppl afford to do this without possibly selling one?
and maybe paying the other 2 off if selling one. but then your tax would be **** house?
thats wot i dont understand
 
There's plenty of threads on here about servicing IP debt.
Some use the equity already built up in the portfolio to partly/fully cover the shortfall. Some have high disposable income and can afford $2-3k p/m.
Some use a positively geared IP to offset a neg geared IP.

There's also a difference between negatively geared and negative cashflow.
Have a read of the interviews as to how the more seasoned investors do it.
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

Theres a couple missing I think. Do a search for Rixters, also good reading
 
What i dont understand is how ppl can keep purchasing ip's without selling,
which alot of ppl preach not too sell yet they can continue purchasing
eg if you had 3 ip's and they were neg gearded and your paying lets say $1000 per ip out of pocket (while tenet in it) how can ppl afford to do this without possibly selling one?
and maybe paying the other 2 off if selling one. but then your tax would be **** house?
thats wot i dont understand


I am going to buy my 2nd ip when my 1st ip is getting closer towards neutrally geared, so that its nearly paying for itself. I would like to have at least $150 K in equity in first property before I do so.Then I'll go and buy ip #2 that I can afford to service with an LVR of around 75% so I will have a buffer. I need to take a relatively conservative approach and ensure I manage the risk. I need to keep a buffer of at least $20 K in my offset too.
 
And we're starting to get very attached to the land next to our IP (its in *such* a nice location) and thinking screw being a landlord, we can sell the IP and PPoR next year and build a house! :D Although I haven't seen an accountant yet and got a grand total of zero advice here when I asked so we're doing all the figures on raw emotion like good little OOs.
 
In regards to servicing these debts do people purchase their new IP with cash deposits in order to steer away from x-col? If cash deposits are used, are you only putting forward 10% and then paying LMI?
 
To the people that use this strategy,
What % do you put down as a deposit?
Do you pay LMI?
Have you considered putting enough cash in a term deposit and using that as equity to borrow 100% of purchase price? Once the value of the IP increase you should be able to get the bank to release the security (term deposit) and then just stick it back into an offset account.
The aim of my game is to put as little deposit down as possible whilst putting the maximum amount into an offset account to be accessed when needed for a ppor in a couple of years.

What i dont understand is how ppl can keep purchasing ip's without selling,
which alot of ppl preach not too sell yet they can continue purchasing
eg if you had 3 ip's and they were neg gearded and your paying lets say $1000 per ip out of pocket (while tenet in it) how can ppl afford to do this without possibly selling one?
and maybe paying the other 2 off if selling one. but then your tax would be **** house?
thats wot i dont understand

In regards to servicing these debts do people purchase their new IP with cash deposits in order to steer away from x-col? If cash deposits are used, are you only putting forward 10% and then paying LMI?

Hi Shady, Soulfly, Lili,

For our initial properties, we put down between 5-10% and capitalised the LMI (it goes into the loan). Our next purchase will be a 10% deposit (using existing equity), and capitalise the LMI. Initially, our deposits were saved cash. Then, as the IP's grew in equity we took out additional loans on them and kept those loans in offset accounts. We only use those funds for IP costs/deposits - so the money sits in the offset against the loan and when we pull it out for deposits, then we start paying interest (deductible) - similar to a LOC, but we wanted to gear more than 80% so we ended up with additional loans - similar to refinancing. We don't x-col anything. And, we don't need to sell to purchase more. Moving forwards, we will probably end up with LOC's (keeps things much simpler!).

Cheers,
Jen
 
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