Website Creation - feed back please

[devank]

There's things about Chrome I like- I use it as my preferred browser. But that's not important. The issue is that something happens when you do run Chrome which shouldn't.

That was a problem at the Joomla end. I bet any Joomla based sites would chuck that notice. Anyway, that problem is solved now. Thank you again Geoff.

 

[Dan_NextPlace]

Hi,
We use joomla for a lot of our own projects. Its great.

I would change the Favicon to one that isnt joomla default but thats largely personal preference. It shows up in a few things on the visitors end, usually stored when bookmarked etc.

I ran some speedtests for you and I think there is a bit of low hanging fruit you can pick up and make the site faster (and hopefully rank on google as they factor page speed in due to user experience benefits.

https://developers.google.com/speed...ww.proactiveaccounting.com.au_2F&mobile=false

High priority mentions are easy fixes, turn on gzip compression, add expires headers to the files (images, JS, CSS etc) so that the user doesnt download them on each page load again every time.

Webpagetest shows the same.
http://www.webpagetest.org/result/130510_1Y_85b51f3836bde32def61a034d46ce2db/

Fix a few of those things and this site will fly

 

[Sim]

I would change the Favicon to one that isnt joomla default but thats largely personal preference. It shows up in a few things on the visitors end, usually stored when bookmarked etc.

I agree - it annoys me to see default Favicons on sites - looks tacky and incomplete.

Either create your own (I use a 32px PNG file) or remove it completely.

 

[geoffw]

I ran some speedtests for you and I think there is a bit of low hanging fruit you can pick up and make the site faster (and hopefully rank on google as they factor page speed in due to user experience benefits.

https://developers.google.com/speed...ww.proactiveaccounting.com.au_2F&mobile=false

High priority mentions are easy fixes, turn on gzip compression, add expires headers to the files (images, JS, CSS etc) so that the user doesnt download them on each page load again every time.

Webpagetest shows the same.
http://www.webpagetest.org/result/130510_1Y_85b51f3836bde32def61a034d46ce2db/

Fix a few of those things and this site will fly

Some useful sites. Being just a very occasional web person I hadn't heard of these.

A few further points on the mobile phone version:
1. I don't like having links take up the first screen or so of the phone. If I click on something like "SMSF services" I may not even be aware that a page is displayed. I'd prefer to see less important things, like social media details and search demoted to further down on the page- or just kept on the front page- and menu options available on drop down menus- and the important message from your client immediately showing to customers.
2. The red border hogs up a little too much of your precious screen real estate. Perhaps it could be a little closer to the edge.
3. The tool bar/drop down icon doesn't appear to do anything. On PC there's only the option to email- which may be better left on the contact details section.
4. The contact forms go slightly off the page (iPhone)
5. There's some orphans which look a bit odd. So under Tax Planning on iPhone, the words "We Offer" are separated from the following text.

 

[devank]

I would change the Favicon to one that isnt joomla default

Thank you for that Dan. It is fixed now. Loading my own icon.

I ran some speedtests for you...
High priority mentions are easy fixes, turn on gzip compression

Thank you again for doing the test and introducing that site. gzip compression is fixed but I need more time to tackle rest of the issues.

 

[AlmostBob]

these standards test beds may help, most provide a list of errors if found, some of them are simple, as forgetting a urlencode

speed link

html link

css2 link

css3 link

handheld
link opera mini
link iphone
link ipad

other browsers link type url in the box
other browsers link complete

nothing that depends on a plugin, is guaranteed to work, where it is disabled in prospective customer's coporate networks, the blank spaces may cause perceptions of error, or infestation

I have thumbdrive versions of safari opera firefox lynx for testing, sometimes they look nothing like the development version

 

[devank]

High priority mentions are easy fixes, turn on gzip compression, add expires headers to the files (images, JS, CSS etc) so that the user doesnt download them on each page load again every time.

Thanks again. Most highest priority issues are fixed now. Hosting company says 'everything is normal'. Could it be because my server is in Australia but this Google site is in US?

3. The tool bar/drop down icon doesn't appear to do anything. On PC there's only the option to email- which may be better left on the contact details section.
4. The contact forms go slightly off the page (iPhone)

Thank you Geoff for your all valid suggestions. Most needs to be decided by the client... so I passed it on to them.

Tool bar/drop down icon - That has two purpose. Generally it lets people email the page they are viewing. Pre-approved editors (staff members) can use that to 'Edit' the page on the fly (if they log in). They don't need to go to the back end at all.

Forms go slightly off the page on iPhone - I believe iPhone is the smallest screen I tested. It happens in verticle These form are created/controlled by Wuufoo and passed on to mailChimp automatically. So I have less control over it. I'll send a request to them.

these standards test beds may help, most provide a list of errors if found, some of them are simple, as forgetting a urlencode

Thanks a lot for all the test and links. I need to get through them one by one.

 

[Dan_NextPlace]

Thanks again. Most highest priority issues are fixed now. Hosting company says 'everything is normal'. Could it be because my server is in Australia but this Google site is in US?

Hi,
1 test was from google insights, the other was from webpagespeedtest.org who lets you choose a server location from 20+ locations around the world, including Sydney.

None of that matters though, re these issues. Im a bit dissapointed in the webhost where they said everything is fine. Its not. But its not really their job, its more a web developer issue (once the right software modules are installed on the server by the web host, the web developer will activate them at a website level) - Confused? I am.

What your webhost should have said is everything is NOT fine, we have made some changes, but that this is really a web dev problem to fix.

I ran another test.
http://www.webpagetest.org/result/130512_TT_60f59e026e79ca69fd434fe8f776a563/

You can see a D for compress images and a D for cache static content.
Images just means you can make them a little smaller. You can probably squeeze out some more savings here.

Cache static content is an issue though.

It means that files that dont need to be downloaded every single web page load, are being downloaded every single webpage load.
You can cut out 90% of your page load size by caching this.

So every single page load, every javascript file is re downloaded, every css file is re downloaded, every image is re downloaded.
http://www.webpagetest.org/result/1...erformance_optimization/#cache_static_content

These files need whats called "cache headers" set.

Ask your web host to make sure "mod_expires" is installed.

Then ask your web dev to set cache headers in the .htaccess file for your joomla site. A good default set of settings is at this link.
http://www.askapache.com/htaccess/speed-up-sites-with-htaccess-caching.html

Your webhost might even do this for you. They certainly would know how, it takes about 2 minutes, but it depends on the support level.

I host my sites in the US for support reasons, and with my target market in AU, every speed option I can squeeze, I try to.

 

[Beef_Hooked]

Generally speaking, how much time does it take to create a site like this and how much would it cost?

It seems there are many DIY services on offer at the moment that offer stylish templates at what seems amazingly cheap prices, especially if you have had any previous experience dealing with an IT company that has separate graphic design and programming sections.

The downside with these DIY sites is you seem to be locked in to permanently ongoing payments and/or their logo on your site. Depending on how long you intend keeping the site, you could end up paying more than a bespoke website.

There seems to be an ever increasing number of these services around that appear to start at $0 (plus small ongoings). Obviously there is no such thing as a free lunch but the the main thing they seem to have in common and puts me off, is it doesn't look like you own your site. You can't take it to be hosted elsewhere as it seems to be dependent on their setup, not a stand alone site. A bit like the razor + blades marketing model. And this is usually not apparent until much later in the sign up process.

Cheers,
Beef

 

[devank]

2. The red border hogs up a little too much of your precious screen real estate. Perhaps it could be a little closer to the edge.

Had to swim through the CSS file but finally found it and fixed it.

Thank you Dan for all your explanations and pointers.
I think I managed to optimise the site from bad state to decent state now.

Generally speaking, how much time does it take to create a site like this and how much would it cost?

It seems there are many DIY services on offer at the moment that offer stylish templates at what seems amazingly cheap prices,

Like with anything, it all depends on what you want. Generally people really don't know what they require.
Just loading up the Joomla and attaching a template would take about 30 mins... but everything else can take 30 days!
Everything else =
Graphic design
Site structure
Content
Features (testimonials, FAQs, Forms, Distribution lists, seach, social links, google maps, image galleries)
SEO
site optimisation
what ever I haven't mentioned..

 

[Dan_NextPlace]

Had to swim through the CSS file but finally found it and fixed it.

Thank you Dan for all your explanations and pointers.
I think I managed to optimise the site from bad state to decent state now.

What an awesome improvement. Well done.

Re price.
Exactly as above. The biggest cost involved in web development is the person asking for it.

 

[Beef_Hooked]

I just find it a little difficult to find anyone who can give a final price/quote.

I understand it is a creative service rather than something that can be weighed and priced accordingly, but It seems the "how long is a piece of string" answer is a standard among web developers. I have been down this path some years ago and 6 months and many wasted dollars later walked away with a dog.

Speaking to other website owners it seems to be a common problem finding someone who can listen to what the customer wants and not what becomes a show off exercise to make it look good for their portfolio.

Cheers,
Beef

 

[Sim]

I just find it a little difficult to find anyone who can give a final price/quote.

I've built simple business sites for a fixed price (several thousand dollars) where the scope was well defined and they weren't after a fancy design - just something basic, clean and functional (eg not that different to my own site - http://hampelgroup.com/)

However, I currently have a client who I talked to for 4 years before they decided what they actually wanted (which was very different to what I and another medium-sized web design company actually quoted separately for). Their original vision was quoted by this other company starting at $80,000 for stage 1, with my guestimate of their final costs being more like $150,000 plus several thousand per month in ongoing maintenance.

I then quoted $25,000 to build it all for them instead.

2 years later, they went with a company who promised a turn-key site for $1,200 - which was delivered as specified, but of course the client really wanted far more than what the site gave them.

It also turned out that all the work was done OS, only the "figurehead" person was actually in Australia - all work was done by her team in another country and the figurehead was not actually involved in the process at all. I don't have a problem with using people OS (I employ staff out of the Philippines myself), but there was limited customer service from this cheap operation - you couldn't even pick up the phone to talk to someone about things, everything had to be done by email. You really do get what you pay for - they really spent minimal time building the site - it was all template driven.

I've since rebuilt the site from scratch to fix the limitations of the site that was built and I've done over $10,000 worth of additional work on the site to customise it to exactly what the client needed. It's not even finished yet. They call me several times a week asking for changes or new features

If you know exactly what you want and are happy to define it all up-front, then you can generally get a fixed price quote. If there is anything at all vague about your goals or if you don't even know what you want - it's going to be a totally different ball game.

It helps if you can find other websites (or specific features of websites) that you like to use as examples for the design and layout.

 

[devank]

Speaking to other website owners it seems to be a common problem finding someone who can listen to what the customer wants and not what becomes a show off exercise to make it look good for their portfolio.

I can understand you perfectly.

This site I put together is nowhere near a ‘show off’. It is designed exactly for the business’s needs.

I did this as a business 6 years back. Here are few of comments from a developer’s point of view.
1. Generally clients don’t/can’t understand and complexity. They only see the ‘front end’.
2. Conflicting requirements
Eg: One guy asked me to design a site looks like windows explorer so that users would be familiar. He said he wanted a simplest look. I did exactly that but came back and said it wasn’t attractive enough.
3. Expecting a mind reader:
Sometimes they expect us to come up with many different designs until they find the one in their mind
4. Lack of user requirement document.
They don’t say exactly what I want/need at the beginning. This opens up can of worms at later stage.

This is the solution I had at that time (when everything was done through photoshop & dreamweaver)
Step 1: Understand client’s business, agree on user requirements – If they are happy then then they paid 20% of the fee.

Step 2: Produced photoshop version (image) of possible few designs. If they are happy then they pay another 20%.

Step 3: Produced a ‘Skelton’ site without any contend. Pay another 20% if they are happy.

Step 4: Produced all contend pages. Pay another 20% if they are happy.

Step 5: Handed over the site. Client pays the final 20%.

Both parties could walk away at any stage if they were not happy. Clients were free to take the half-baked product with them.

 

[Dan_NextPlace]

I just find it a little difficult to find anyone who can give a final price/quote.

Couple of tips.
Avoid custom anything unless you need it.
CMS use joomla or wordpress.
Design use template (it really can take hours or days to make the smallest of changes in the clients eyes)
Functionality, use the best rated, most supported plugins you can find. If they dont do what your after, modify them to do it, or really think hard if you need that particular function.

Extra points for clients who bring their own logo to the table (use fiverr and hire 5 different people to at least bring concepts to the table).

Have your content ready.

Dont skimp on hosting, you want to at least pay for someone to managed host your website so that things like speed configs are not outside of scope. Be security conscious as well.

If your that customer above? Then $2-3k for something like a business presence website is easy enough for people to make money and support you, $5k for basic ecommerce functionality.

When I did client work we used to turn down anyone who couldnt meet the above criteria, and thats most.
The above means you just really need a web integrator/administrator, not so much web developers or designers, a much cheaper option.

Building my Real Estate site Next Place, we engaged a team to help us with some of the heavy lifting coding as we were taking too long. Thought it would take 2 weeks. 6 months later we are still working together because a website can be a beast of its own, it grows, it must constantly be worked on, tested, tweaked, features etc. We are the ultimate scope creepers because good work is never "done". Ironic.

 

[Beef_Hooked]

Thanks everyone, plenty of food for thought there.

I think the point about being clear of what exactly you want is very important. Expressing that can be a bit more difficult, so I think next time I will draw up some page layouts with an old school pen and paper.

With our previous site a some years back, we wanted a feminine look to compliment the product. The brief was for an elegant style that would appeal to female visitors but ended up with something more suited to a grunge garage band.

It had lots of fancy flash and other cool looking features that popped up and down, in and out but it loaded like a dripping tap and was nothing like we had originally imagined, in fact it looked like they had done completely the opposite of what was asked.

That's where the point above became so important and I feel we failed to be specific enough in our brief and didn't keep a close eye on the progress during development. We were making progress payments but not offered (didn't think to ask) for a look to see how it was progressing. It was all done in-house and not available for viewing on the net. When I write it down now, in hindsight it sounds so foolish, I wouldn't commission a builder and not visit the site until completion but the net was fairly new and web designers seemed to paint an aura of wizardry about them: Don't ask - you wouldn't understand, mortal.

We finally published after about 5 months of waiting for what was promised to take 2 weeks. I could never seem to get the incredibly clumsy editor software, which was apparently developed in house, to work properly so I quickly took to learning some basic cut and paste HTML to allow me to update it. Picking at the code in Notepad and FTP seemed the easiest way to update, but now HTML seems redundant. In the end we weren't even covering the hosting fees, we were made an offer for the business (basically just for the domain name value) and offloaded the lot. We made more from the domain then I ever did from the actual site

Given that experience, I am sure I could learn Wordpress myself. I have been looking at the available themes and it looks like all the work is already done I just need to fill in the blanks. Although setting it up looks a bit daunting at first I'm sure it is doable for a basically I.T. literate person, it's just justifying the time to study it, then the time to build it. Our idea is still at the concept stage so there is no rush.

Devank it looks great, I'd be more than happy with that site.

Cheers,
Beef.

 

[Mooze]

Beef - one thing we've learnt is it really comes down to the business and what they actually need.

Our current business website is built on Joomla, we've had several devs involved, and to be honest I think in many ways my other half has been in some ways a big hindrance as he keeps playing with the darn thing (to the detriment of other areas of the business). He's IT savy, but not up on Joomla so takes ages on anything, often resulting in me having to get onto the web dev and pay some more moola to fix it.
However the business does need something more than a shopify/word press capability so going down that path is necessary.

New business is shopping cart/product based - husband has been told to stay away from it, I've got enough knowledge to get it set up, SSI and gateway set to go, then he can have basic editing for products. (Meant to be his business but I've learnt lesson from last time in that I'll get dragged in to find someone to fix it if he plays too much, also he'll spend too much time on it if it's got greater capabilities).

Onto OP's website - from a non tech currently in the market for a business accountant - website is easy to get around, easy to find their services. Feels a bit bland but that's more from photo choice, and as a possible client I don't feel a connection (again could be more photo issue - no faces).

 

[Sim]

to be honest I think in many ways my other half has been in some ways a big hindrance as he keeps playing with the darn thing (to the detriment of other areas of the business). He's IT savy, but not up on Joomla so takes ages on anything, often resulting in me having to get onto the web dev and pay some more moola to fix it.

Hehe ... I have one important rule with clients I work with - I host their site and I only ever give them "editor" access to their WordPress sites for as long as I'm looking after it.

If they want admin access, they are welcome to host it themselves, but I won't work on the site or provide support.

I've had too many clients call me for an "urgent" fix when they have broken their site by playing with it.

 

[devank]

I think the point about being clear of what exactly you want is very important. Expressing that can be a bit more difficult, so I think next time I will draw up some page layouts with an old school pen and paper.

Like Sim said, I used to ask the client to look at their competitors websites and note down what they like and what they don't like.

 

[devank]

Onto OP's website - from a non tech currently in the market for a business accountant - website is easy to get around, easy to find their services. Feels a bit bland but that's more from photo choice, and as a possible client I don't feel a connection (again could be more photo issue - no faces).

Thank you. I will pass your comments to them. I think they are planning to get graphic designers come up with more relevant banners and professionals to place in there image gallery.