Wrap story in todays SMH

The difference is (as much reality as perception) is that the bank will evict any person from their home -rich or poor- but with rappers it always seems to be the strugglers that are the victims.

I remember reading previous posts on the forum with members supporting a certain Mr Kaye over a certain whatshisname. I was in disbelief because i know which one has financially hurt the most consumers over the years, apparently in the thousands and some losing their life savings.

Regardless of what people think of whatshisname and his self promoting style he hasnt (to my knowledge) disadvantaged or financially hurt one real estate consumer or member of the public.

A couple of questions if i may:

Is the inherent dislike in the forum for you know who tall poppy syndrome?

Why isnt their a more ethical bias on the forum?

One thing i have learnt from investing and being in business for a long time is that absolute integrity and ethical dealing is a must for long term success.

Its usually the lesser achievers or the get rich quick types that lean toward more unethical mindsets.
 
Rolf Latham said:
Hi LW

I would disagree.

Im not good on generalisations, I cant find any information on the little guy having been consistently succesful in any legal action (including debt recovery) against any one or thing that has significant larger financial resources.

There are isolated occurences that I am aware of, more often though these are where a high profile legal person has done the work pro bono.

Can you recall any recent cases where a small business has been succesful ? I may be swayed here, but I cant recall any ?

ta
rolf


No i cant just as you cant but if what your saying is true then what type of legal system do we have here in Australia. But i'd say anecdotally that it happens much more often than it doesnt, dont you think there would be some sort of enquiry and/or public outcry otherwise.

As far as debt recovery goes i'd say most business use a debt recovery company as i do and dont litigate themselves.
 
likewow said:
One thing i have learnt from investing and being in business for a long time is that absolute integrity and ethical dealing is a must for long term success.
.

Likewow, maybe one of the reasons that people on this thread are coming to michael's defence is that there are many people on the forum who have known michael for a number of years and feel that your above description would apply to him as much as anyone else on the forum.

See Change
 
likewow said:
Why isnt their a more ethical bias on the forum?

One thing i have learnt from investing and being in business for a long time is that absolute integrity and ethical dealing is a must for long term success.

I find in general (especially from the more experienced investors) that there is a very strong ethical bias on this forum.

The difference is that there are certain people outside the forum who proclaim to be the pillars of ethics in our community, yet who are quite inconsitent in their application of their righteousness - and seem to be more interested in self-serving ends than than they are interested in unbiased and well considered reporting of facts.

Your generalisations and assumptions serve little purpose, likewow.
 
likewow said:
Is the inherent dislike in the forum for you know who tall poppy syndrome?

Its usually the lesser achievers or the get rich quick types that lean toward more unethical mindsets.

Likewow,

Have you ever stopped to ask why the "consumer advocate" you mention never refers to the hundreds, perhaps thousands of satisfied wrap clients out there?

For example, from memory Rick Otton and Steve McKnight have perhaps over 400 wrap clients between them, and not one has ever made a complaint. Rather, each of these clients took advantage of an opportunity to secure a property when mainstream lenders failed to offer them a chance. These people make repayments to the wrappers, and in a couple of years have built up enough of a credit rating to secure more traditional finance. Would you have these people continue renting for eternity?

I dont have feelings one way or the other about wraps - theyre not for me, but Im not judgemental enough to tell others it shouldnt be for them. I dont labour under the delusion that wrappers do it solely to "help others buy their own property", but this doesnt mean every wrapper is unethical or amoral. A wrapper runs a business, and that business is providing (a) a property, and (b) finance, to those denied these elsewhere. Does anyone force the wrappee to enter into the deal? If the wrappee is unhappy about any part of the deal, they can continue renting in the hope that one day their financial situation chances enough to allow them to secure bank finance.

Typical of sensational media, you only hear about the occasional failures - you never hear about the many successes. What would be the ratio of successful wraps to unsuccessful (on the part of the wrappee)? 500 to 1?

Are you prepared to legislate to outlaw wrapping and deny 499 other people an opportunity to own their own homes once banks tell them it just isnt possible? What solution would you offer these people?

Jamie.
 
media

The media is fickle with her favours...

one minute a wrapper is "Melbourne's housing hero" providing homes for the little Aussie Battler so they can realise the Aussie dream of home ownership.

the next minute they're mean spirited scrooges at Xmas evicting mum and the kiddies...

All I can say is, having acted for Banks in mortgagee repos and sales... emotion doesn't come into it. All the bank is concerned about is getting its money back. Anything which might be construed as sympathy or leniency is purely due to the reputational risk for the bank if they kick an aussie battler at Xmas. They just wait until new year ;-)

It's about time people started taking responsibility for their actions in this country! These people signed a deal, no doubt had some independent advice about it and must now live with the consequences. They've had a roof over their heads for some time (which but for MG they probably wouldn't have)...

Wrapping, just like sub-prime lending low/no docs etc fills a market niche...

The only good thing about the popular media in Australia is that it has a VERY short attention span so...If I were MG I'd just crack a coldie and have a relaxed Xmas...there'll be a new story next week...

Cheers
N.
 
Hi All

Ehtics in wrapping, ok , should one provide money to someone that the banks wont for whatever reason.

Where the wrap payment doesnt exceed the current rent paid by the wrappee, the wrapee has zip to lose and only to gain.

This is where the wheels fall off the wagon with those that have an issue with providing wrap finance to those who cant be seen to afford it. If you can pay the rent, you can afford to pay the wrap payment.

The problem is that ALL wrappers that I know are much more flexible and lenient than any bank or land lord would be, and that is where the problem lies largely in my eyes. The wrappees abuse of that trust/flexibility !

If you wont/cant provide wrap credit to soemone at the same cost as their rent, then by definition those same people should not be allowed a lease.........................so are they supposed to live in a tent ?

ta
rolf
 
Sim said:
I find in general (especially from the more experienced investors) that there is a very strong ethical bias on this forum.

The difference is that there are certain people outside the forum who proclaim to be the pillars of ethics in our community, yet who are quite inconsitent in their application of their righteousness - and seem to be more interested in self-serving ends than than they are interested in unbiased and well considered reporting of facts.

Your generalisations and assumptions serve little purpose, likewow.

Bingo, you beat me to it, Sim.
 
likewow said:
Can you enlighetn us further on the alternative versions?
Why don't you ask Michaelg directly Likewow.

Privacy laws limit what can be said legally and ethically from the wrapper side.

But we live in a society where the media can bombast whoever it likes.

Legal action is expensive and often unsuccessful - regardless of the actual truth in the matter. Which I stated as a direct response to you in another thread about defamation proceedings.


Nat r - anyone who knows Michaelg, Rick Otten or Steve McKnight or has investigated the Vendor Finance Association would realise that they are the good guys. Do your research before making unsupported and erroneous comments.

Why do some people get so caught up in what they hear in the media!

The media exists to make profits, not to inform.

BTW: The banks frequently evict people who cannot pay their mortgages (several every day of the year). However as the banks are such large advertisers it's not in the financial interests of the popular press to report these occurences.

Likewow, I've yet to see any indication in your posts that you can distinguish between ethical conduct and media beat up.

You have some idealistic views which are great - however they do not correlate with the real world. And I am appalled that someone who claims to have been in business for as long as you claim has such a poor understanding of the defamation laws in this country. You are only exposing yourself to legal action and have done so repeatedly in this forum.

I'd be very disappointed Likewow if you behave as you've done in other threads and force the moderators to terminate it.

BTW: Great post Jamie! (mine's a bit scattered, but I've been drinking for a few hours ;) )

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Hi Acey,

I enjoy your posts, but I just wanted to refer to this comment However as the banks are such large advertisers it's not in the financial interests of the popular press to report these occurences.

I work in the 9 newsroom in Melbourne, and I can assure you that the financial interests of the sales department, or the fortunes of our advertisers, NEVER play a part in our story selection. Perhaps if you're in Melbourne you might like to come in and see how the newsroom works and what factors dictate our story selection, it's never as sinister as some might think...

I can't speak for the ACA department downstairs though :eek: ...

Cheers
r
 
Richmond,

Newspapers are more the medium I am thinking of :)

Even Jenman would agree - he's had difficulties in the past placing his advertising within newspapers due to their reliance on the Real Estate advertising dollar....

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
richmond said:
Hi Acey,

I enjoy your posts, but I just wanted to refer to this comment However as the banks are such large advertisers it's not in the financial interests of the popular press to report these occurences.

I work in the 9 newsroom in Melbourne, and I can assure you that the financial interests of the sales department, or the fortunes of our advertisers, NEVER play a part in our story selection. Perhaps if you're in Melbourne you might like to come in and see how the newsroom works and what factors dictate our story selection, it's never as sinister as some might think...

I can't speak for the ACA department downstairs though :eek: ...

Cheers
r

Brave Post Richmond :)

I agree. I think the Media goes for whoever except the seriously powerful friends of Mr Packer at 9 and in reality, no one goes for them, until ATSIC gets a grip and then no one can help ( think Rivkin, Adler, etc..)

But truth in Media is atrocious IMO.

Only last night I was watching the Channel 10 News and here was an anchor throwing to a dud reporting “from” Ryde Shopping Centre re the shopping rush. I watched and thought humm.. it looks weird. Here he was reporting in a crowd and no-one was turning to look at the camera? Then my wife said “that’s the same footage as last night!”

It was… and then you could see he was being superimposed over the scene and they were using very smart works like “in the action” and not “live” in their description.

Essentially they were misrepresenting to the viewers. Why? How cares? We know the shopping would be hell. Why BS us? It was an insult.

Since a 1998 experience with the ABC I have learnt to watch but no believe anything reported. I wish the Gov would fine the news like they do speeding drivers when they take the truth carelessly. We could then watch with some comfort.

On another point, human nature loves to hear about bad things. It seems 1000’s of years of evolution has trained us to look for danger first and peace second. Even so-called feel good stories like the little Girl burned in the Car accident at the pre-school it still a study of “poor thing, that could have been my child”.

It is credit to Somersoft that we are mostly a bunch of optimists, all sharing our goals and fears, but overall, looking forward to a better future.

Regards, peter 147
 
howdy,

that channel 10 example is a shocker!! I'd love to see it... we pre-record some crosses "as live", but only due to logistical reasons that crop up from time to time... when we do, we throw to it with "such and such is there" or "joining us now is such and such"...

we do "live live" wherever we can.

you're right that humans seemingly love bad news, unfortunately bad news is often the most interesting... however we do run stories on human achievement and positive stuff too. Wherever possible we try and achieve balance in our bulletins (believe it or not) because our research tells us people don't like too much doom and gloom. We live and die by our ratings, so it won't change until viewer numbers slide.

re: truth in media, we have an army of lawyers who are consulted whenever a story comes up that might spark a litigious reaction, and it's a journo's frustration that the lawyers often take the knife to a script and axe a lot of the juicy stuff. Alleged current affairs shows take a much more liberal view, and I often get miffed when we're all lumped in together... it's not quite apples and apples.

anyway, I happily admit that I'm biased, but I can see how many many people don't trust the media... sometimes we're our own worst enemies... that's probably a whole other thread though.

cheers all :)
richmond (the optimistic news producer)
 
This is the real world. And in the real world, there are good and bad people.
There are good, ethical wrappers out there, and there are some ripoff merchants.
Just as there are good landlords, and the landlords from hell (I've rented from one of them myself!).
And on the other side of the coin, there are fabulous wrap buyers out there, and there are some that really are a nightmare.
Just as there are good tenants, and the tenants from hell.
Saying that all wrappers are good or bad isn't reality - as in most professions, you only hear about the bad situations. Do we ever hear about the thousands of transactions conducted by fabulous brokers? Or the occasional ripoff merchants?
I've heard both Steve and Rick quote figures of around 5% for how many of their deals don't work out. I've had to evict one buyer myself, and seriously, I don't think ANYBODY could possibly say I didn't give him so many chances that I was basically insane!
And as a final point - I WOULD seriously doubt that any one of my buyers would take very kindly to being referred to as a bottom dweller. My buyers are good, decent people who work hard and dream of something better in life than renting forever. But with the banks being so pedantic, and the difficulties of saving a big deposit with rent to pay and kids to raise, they get so frustrated with the system that they look for alternatives - and a wrapper is one of them. They know that for a year or two they pay a bit more than a standard loan (but not as much as some non-conforming ones!) and hopefully by then will be able to refinance into a standard loan. I have enormous respect for these people, and it angers me to hear them referred to in such a derogatory and condescending manner.
Rant mode off....
 
The difference when a bank evicts a borrower is that the bank has a duty under law to realise the best price when selling the house and pass any equity that has been accrued back to the borrower.

I never suggested that borrowers who flatley refuse to pay or just can't afford thier repayments shouldn't have thier mortgage foreclosed, it more those who genuinely have a life event that effects their ability to meet their repayments for a period that deserve full protection.
 
Hi Nat

while the equity issue is fair comment, remember that the person that took on the installment contract (under independent legal advice) knew that if they bounced the contract they would lose their equity. Its not as if they were forced into the transaction under duress !

Recall the bank wouldnt touch them.............................. so the comparison doesnt hold in my view.

In many cases, in my knowledge what happens is that the wrappee refuses to refinance and purchase the property in their own name because they know a normal lender wont put up with being 5 mths in arrears. As a responsible business person you have no choice but to excercise the mortgage. To do anything less is to become an abused charity.

ta

rolf
 
Hi Guys,

Thought I best respond to this thread to set the record straight on a number of points.

#1 The property referred to in the SMH article is registered in my name and it was my first deal.
Michael is not the wrapper for this deal. You may notice the article mentions that Michael controls a company called Dark Thoughts, but it does not link this to the property, they let you, the reader infer such. Michael's only involvement in this matter started a couple of months ago to act as "special administrator" to help my client's realise the seriousness of the matter.

The idea of a special administrator is the same concept many companies use to highlight the seriousness of a situation by boosting the client's awareness by changing the routine. We had hope this would change the situation without the need to take any further steps.

#2 The meeting with my clients was arranged by appointment, at a time and date of their choosing. And it was I who ask if it would be best if the children were not present, a request my clients believe made sense. And there was no threatening involved while the kids were away, we just presented them the facts and figures, which I recommended they take it to their legal advisor.

#3 You may notice that the quote "The xxx wrap agreement says they must give up their small property at xxx, near xxx, if they miss just one repayment - which they did this year after xxx was retrenched from his factory management job and xxx suffered serious illness.", does not specify how many payments were missed, nor the time difference from the first default to the subsequent actions that have occurred thereafter.

Under the Uniform consumer credit code I am required to issue a default notice each time a borrower falls into arrears, which I have complied with - each time (each notice allows for a 30 day period to rectify the default or arrange alternative arrangements). Please refer to CONSUMER CREDIT CODE - SECT 80 (2) (a) and (b) for more info. A link to the section is provided here for reference.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/qld/consol_reg/ccc176/s80.html

#4 If you examine the quote "The family is one of tens of thousands who resorted to the risky finance because they were desperate to enter the property market but unable to secure a bank loan." and then check various consumer advocate websites and compare the number of defaults, you may find that the success ratio of wrapping could be considered to be quite high.

#5 I would have to disagree with the quote "Only when they fell behind on repayments did they understand what wrap finance really meant." as their independent legal advisor would have explained this prior to signing the contract.

#6 To Likewow, your quote "I also disagree with Michaels comparison of finance for a car and a house. A family with children don’t live in a car." is an emotional reaction.

If you compare the contracts on a hire purchase agreement and an instalment contract you will find that they are in fact very similar. It does you no credit to argue facts from an emotional viewpoint.

Rather, I would have accepted the comment; "while technically similar, I feel uncomfortable with the fact that a family would lose their home, whereas people do not place as large an emotional attachment to a car" This comment is less sensational, in my view and more sensible.

#7 There are two points I would like to make regarding the quote "Three years ago the xxx found the xxx house and answered an ad by Mr Gruber to arrange the finance deal."

(i) Michael did not create this deal.
(ii) Throughout the term of this contract (length of contract mentioned above) I have been acting under section 66 (2)(a)(b)(c) (Changes on grounds of hardship) to accommodate certain exceptional circumstances using payment schedules issued to me by my clients.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/qld/consol_reg/ccc176/s66.html

#8 The quote "According to xxx, Mr Gruber charged them $93,000 but did not disclose that he had paid just $76,000 for the property only weeks before." is not correct.

Michael (a) did not sell the property and (b) the system I use is that the clients select their own property, in this case they found their property at a real estate agency and negotiated the price I purchased the property and (c) not only they knew my purchase, my margins were also clearly stated in the information kit I provided to them upon answering my ad.

#9 Under the privacy act I cannot disclose specific details which limits the amount of information I can disclose.

What I would like to mention is that before I was involve with wrapping there was nothing on the market like LoanAlert that provided all the necessary documents required under the Credit Code. Prior to LoanAlert, statements and notices were done via excel. With LoanAlert, compliance with the code is more automated and stress free.

Well if other people can plug books they write in articles, why not my own promotion?

#10 Finally, I think it is important that we all understand that (a) under the consumer credit code the formal process of default takes a considerable amount of time to process. Especially when you factor provisions for alternative payment arrangements, this time period can be stretched. It was my expectation that a plan that would have fixed up the arrears would have been drafted, agreed to and implemented before Christmas.

(b) Something else we must consider is that as a society were are bound by the law, the agreements we make and the words we give. If all these are adhered to then incidents such as the one we are discussing here would not occur. While I am bound by the Code to issue notices and statements, provide allowances for hardship and accept alternative payment arrangements, those who seek my services are equally bound to code of conduct as it relates to business and financial matters.
 
Hiya Yuch

Merry Christmas to ya !

Interesting, how the various media people didnt even bother to ask verification of the most basic facts. Sort of confirms what I knew all along.

Actually, for 8 bucks for an online title search, both Whats his name's people and the media would have found that the property in question Had nothing to do with Michael.

Im happy to see such a balanced response from you, it shows in my eyes just how much bent there is in what has been published, on other people's web sites and papers.

ta
rolf
 
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