Mona Vale Townhouse Development - Update

[AndyB]

Well done Michael,

A couple of questions if you don't mind;

1/ How much approx did the architect charge just for the design/drawings etc not including all the reports you were required to obtain?

2/ Are you submitting a combined DA/Construction application?

3/ Are you planning to use the architects services after the DA has been approved ie to assist managing the project?

Thanks in advance
Andrew

 

[MichaelW]

Hi Andrew,

No problem at all. Happy to field all questions with regards to this development. I originally called it the "Somersoft Development" as its been a collaborative effort of quite a few of my close friends here. As such I will definately post up all the outcomes along the way and provide as much insight to this community as possible...

1/ How much approx did the architect charge just for the design/drawings etc not including all the reports you were required to obtain?

Original quote was $20K + GST, but I negotiated that down to $18K + GST and got them to include the Statement of Effects in the quoted amount.

2/ Are you submitting a combined DA/Construction application?

No. We will have to do some more work to get the construction certificate and am just now figuring out the best approach to do this. My options are:

1. Pay the architects to do the detailed specification and oversee the submission and approval process. I think this would cost about $20K more but I haven't got the firm quote from them yet.

2. Engage a QS for about $4K to do a detailed specification based on certain assumptions around internal fit-out not specified in the DA drawings. I can then do the internal fit-out specification myself in advance and provide that to the QS for inclusion. I intend to do this anyway as fit-out is something I want to control closely, plus have some experience with. So my tendency at this stage is to pursue this option 2 approach. I'm also engaging a good friend off this forum, Peter 14.7, to assist with the prime cost specification. Between us we'll definately be able to do the internal specification appropriately. I'm not sure what else council requires for the CC but my experience with building my own house was that it was much simpler than the DA.

3/ Are you planning to use the architects services after the DA has been approved ie to assist managing the project?

No. Once we have building approval we'll take it from there. I might engage a QS to oversee the physical construction to ensure appropriate materials are used as per the CC prior to authorising stage payments.

Cheers,
Michael.

PS Marty, we're working on 6-8 weeks for the DA approval now that its submitted. It can take a lot longer, but all the pre-work we did should keep it to that timeframe for us. The pre-DA meeting with the senior planner cost us $835 but that's money well spent in streamlining the approval.

 

[MichaelW]

Some images of Mona Vale

Hi guys,

For those of you who prefer 3D images of what the development is planned to look like, the following might be of more value.

This first one is the view from Pittwater Rd, looking North-ish. The existing driveway access to the site is visible, but this is to be replaced with a pedestrian access only.

This second shows the full schedule of finishes and includes a representation of the development from Darley Street. We have moved the driveway access to this street which is the lower traffic street anyway so council should be receptive to that idea.

Gee I hate this just waiting stage. Its far more exciting when you're actually doing stuff...

Cheers,
Michael.

 

[FrankGrimes]

Michael

Good luck with the DA and thanks for the update. You probably have already answered this somewhere else but I have done a search and couldn't find anything.

- How did you go about selecting your architect? architects seem to be a bit elusive
- What due diligence if any did you do on the firm/person?
- Did you look at any previous work?
- Do they specialize in your type of development? ie townhouses, duplexes or they do anything?
- Are they usually familiar with other council areas, or do they usually specialize with one council?
- When sourcing block, did you get a zoning map from council and then target the higher density areas?

Look forward to more updates.

Regards

Luke

 

[Able]

Michael,
Your first indication to the CC requirements are the DA conditions that will be issued by Council along with the approval. Generally Council will like to see evidence that you have satisfied each of their conditions at design stage prior to construction. For example you say you have already produced an accessibility report. Then Council will like to see evidence on your drawings and specifications that the requirements of the access report have been included (and therefore will form part of the builders scope of work). The final step, using this example, is upon completion obtaining certification either by the builder or by consultants that the requirements have been built correctly. Council will also include in their DA approval a number of standard conditions, for example 'Sediment Control' during construction. The CC may then require you to produce a sediment control plan that will be in place during construction.

You are probably already aware, but for CC and OC you can choose to use either the Council (for which they will charge you a fee) or the services of a private certifier.

Regards
Alistair

 

[MichaelW]

Hi Luke,

More than happy to provide answers to those questions. I'm not sure I have spelt out my due diligence around architect selection yet...

How did you go about selecting your architect?

I trusted Somersoft! I posted in another thread about this development asking for anyone that knew good architects in the Northern Beaches area with experience doing MUH developments. I got two good leads and followed up both with face-to-face meetings with the architects. I also went to the Pittwater Council website and looked up recent MUH developments in my area and saw which Architects were involved. All this is available online with Pittwater Council. I rang a few of them only to find they're a bit too big for what I had planned. They were doing multi-million dollar developments of 10 to 20 townhouses. As it turned out, the two leads from Somersoft were the best two I came up with.

What due diligence if any did you do on the firm/person?

I asked for face-to-face meetings and for them to bring examples of their previous work. I then interviewed them basically with regards to their experience in dealing with Pittwater Council and specifically in doing MUH developments. Following the interviews it became apparent that one firm in particular, GartnerTrovato Architects, were excellently positioned ot do my work for me for reasons I'll detail in answer to your next questions.

Did you look at any previous work?

Yes, these architects do a lot of work in our area so I drove to a few of their sites and checked out their other work. I loved the styling and quality of finish and thought it was very closely aligned with my own vision for the site.

Do they specialize in your type of development? ie townhouses, duplexes or they do anything?

Yes, they do a fair bit of MUH work but also do top end free-standing residential houses and some commercial stuff. The other architect I interviewed had limited experience doing MUH which was a negative for them.

Are they usually familiar with other council areas, or do they usually specialize with one council?

They specialise in Pittwater Council, which is my local council for this development. In fact, and this was a clincher, they have done a lot of work on behalf of Pittwater Council. In fact, they are currently employed by Pittwater Council designing a community centre. They recently did a council MUH design on one of council's blocks and they know the planning department at council intimately. Their offices boast awards from council in 2006 for best residential design, best light commercial design etc etc. The lead guy, Sean Gartner, is a local bloke who grew up on the beaches and still surfs with Council's senior planner. In fact, he bounced our design concept off the senior planner one day after existing the surf. The senior planner gave the whole design a strong pre-approval which in no small way is probably due to the existing relationship this firm has with council and the degree to which council trusts them to deliver on council's design requirements for this sort of project.

In short, they are very experienced with MUH and with this council. I checked out their work and loved the style. I met the senior architect and got on well with him and he agreed to oversee my project directly. And to top it all off, they price matched the other architect firm and chucked in a bit more work (like BASIX) for free to secure the job.

Since I've submitted to council, Sean confirmed that most free-standing residential work they do is normally charged at about double what we were charged for a MUH job. But he said that's because the owner-occupiers are much harder to deal with, and are way to pedantic, compared to developers. He admitted it was good dealing with Kay and I, and I reckon he's definately going to be part of my team from here on in if I do further developments on the Northern Beaches.

Cheers,
Michael.

PS It was Jacque that put me on to this architect. She stated the whole friend of a friend connection. Just goes to show that the Somersoft network is very powerful. Thanks again Jacque!!

 

[FrankGrimes]

Thanks again for being so open with your project, I know everyone on the forums appreciates it.

It sounds like the architect was definitely well-aligned to complete your townhouse design. Did they help with the initial feasbility or was that purely JoannaK and Peter? I'm assuming in future you will go directly to this architect though to discuss potential sites?

Do you know (or mind asking) if they have done any work with Hornsby or Ku-Ring-Gai? Given that they are fairly close to the Pittwater. (Well kind of)

And have you started at Smorgon yet? Make sure you try the coffee at "Arcadia" expresso bar. Its soo good there.

 

[MichaelW]

Update - Formal objection to DA lodged

Hi guys,

Time for one of those updates I was really hoping not to have to post. On the final day of the notification period a full 50 page formal objection to our DA has been lodged with council. It is very detailed and has obviously taken an enormous amount of effort to produce and assesses every element of the design against all of the applicable controls. It highlights a whole heap of minor discrepancies when the controls are ruthlessly employed.

The complainant is known to council and was described by my architect as a known pest. He normally only lodges complaints on the bigger developments but pickings must be a bit thin at the moment so he's slipped down to my little three-unit one.

The architect is going to respond with a simple one page letter stating words to the effect of "Mr Smith is known to council. We contend that the development meets the required standards intent".

I've already flagged to the architect that the next step might have to be the land and environment court. He said that Mr Smith never goes to court, but in reality it would be council we would be filing against.

What a bugger. And everything was going so smoothly. There goes the timeline I guess...

Where's my good mate JoannaK? I know you've had some thorough insight into complainents and the land and environment court that you might want to share with a NooB. Feel free to PM, email or call.......

At least the Sydney market is still in the duldrums so time is sort of on my side.

Sigh,
Michael.

 

[see_change]

50 pages of complaints....

WOW .... Someone needs to get a life .....

Our main complaint with ours was from the rear neighbour who said it impacted his view. We knew we were ok whe the mayor stood at the back of our block , staring into the bush trying to see their house ( hidden in the bush ) and asked the neightbour . " Now where exactly is your house ? "

Cliff

 

[AndyB]

Keep your chin up Michael,

I would think that just because there is an objection from 1 party, it does not mean that council will still not approve your DA. Keep faith with your architect, he probably deals with this all the time. I would think you are a long way off court proceedings at this stage, just another hurdle to jump over.

Regards
Andrew

 

[see_change]

Land and Environment court isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Some developers put in an application there at the same time as they lodge with council .

We could have saved possibly a year or so stuffing around with council if we'd done that .

Cliff

 

[MichaelW]

SeeChange,

That's our thinking too.

Kay used to work for the Land and Environment court as one of the judges' tipstaffer. She knows all the judges and most of the commissioners in there personally. I reckon we'd get a pretty good hearing in front of a commissioner. Kay says that in her experience they really are pro-developer and hate the red tape that councils throw up.

So we'll wait and see which way council plays this objection, but at the first sign of their treating it seriously I'll get Kay to book a date with a commissioner. In all likelihood council probably won't even bother showing up, they've already blown their budget significantly on fighting cases in the LEC, and we'll self-represent as Kay is a qualified lawyer and she topped both local government law and environmental law at Uni. And with her experience in that court she could do it blindfolded.

Seriously, you should see this guys objection though. Must have taken him weeks to do it. He really needs to get a life.

Cheers,
Michael.

 

[see_change]

Can you cross claim for something like vexatious litigation ( complaints ) or is he a retired solicitor who has a hobby of ridding the peninsular of any dwellings ?

Cliff

 

[FrankGrimes]

Seriously, you should see this guys objection though. Must have taken him weeks to do it. He really needs to get a life.

Cheers,
Michael.

Thats really sad. Is he actually a neighbour or simply a local pest? I'm amazed..

Well good luck, hopefully the simple letter to the council is sufficient. But it sounds like you are well positioned for the land and environment court.

There was something on the news that alot of developers now just go straight to the environment court!

 

[MichaelW]

Thats really sad. Is he actually a neighbour or simply a local pest? I'm amazed..

Hi Luke,

No, I think he's just a local pest. He always lodges complaints about MUH developments in Pittwater. I think he wants to just stop all development regardless of the merits of the application.

Ah well, we'll figure a way through it.

Cheers,
Michael.

 

[geoffw]

I think he wants to just stop all development regardless of the merits of the application.

Is his name Timmy?

 

[lizzie]

hahahahahahaha - geoff strikes again. that was sooooo funny ...

good luck michael and i'm sure you'll have no problems at council if there are no other objections and this guy is a known git. they would've had to advise you as part of due process.

i'm following this with interest as we're currently settling a new 4 townhouse block and plans are currently with the architect. once i can work out how to download pdf files (and a bit closer to settlement) i'll start a thread too.

 

[JoannaK]

Hi Michael,

Yes, it's a pain in the bum, and disheartening to have objections, but please don't be too concerned. You only received one objection and that's a great thing! And if the complainant is known to Council chances are that they'll probably not even look at the complaint and just file it away.

The council may just ask you to fiddle around the edges to make it look like they've made you work for your approval, but I wouldn't expect more than that to be honest.

Yes, it will probably stretch out your timeline, but not by too much I would suspect.

You're luck no one has called for an "informal planning conference"; then your time line is totally stuffed.

Now it's time that you find out the following:

Does the GM of the council have a delegated authority to approve the matter or does it go to chambers for a vote?

If it goes to chambers then now is the time to start meeting your friendly local councillors and start lobbying. Find out their policital persuasions and if you have no luck, most of these councillors take direction from the State MP of that region.

If it goes to the GM, get friendly with the Director of Planning and Assessment and start lobbying him.

Your architect is correct in that any claim you made to the land and environment court will be an action against council for a refusal or deemed refusal in the case they don't approve it with in 41 days (or some such thing). The complainant would not have anything to do with it, nor have any say. The only time someone not a party to the proceedings can commence any sort of action is when something IS approved and they totally oppose it, but they have to fund their own case (which is mighty expensive) and pay costs when they lose. Doesn't happen too often, although it does happen.

Don't worry Michael, it will all be fine. Feel free to call me anytime to have a chat if you like...

 

[MichaelW]

Update: Progress on the DA front

Yes, it's a pain in the bum, and disheartening to have objections, but please don't be too concerned. You only received one objection and that's a great thing! And if the complainant is known to Council chances are that they'll probably not even look at the complaint and just file it away.

The council may just ask you to fiddle around the edges to make it look like they've made you work for your approval, but I wouldn't expect more than that to be honest.

Hi guys,

Seems JoannaK was spot on (as expected of course ). I just got a call from my architect who confirmed that council are not treating this guys complaint too seriously despite its being very "professional" in the level of detail it has gone to and the items raised.

They have however, as JoannaK also suggested, started tinkering at the edges of the DA. They want more info on the over-shadowing of the adjoining property and of the roof height in certain places. They've also hinted that we'll need to move the proposed plantings on the council strip back on to our property and maybe slide the fenceline in a bit to accommodate this. Basically minor tinkering stuff. We know the over-shadowing is OK as we've already fully worked up these drawings. And we know the roofline is under the 8.5m height restriction but could give some more away if need be.

Basically, the architect says it will take a little longer but it looks like the planner assigned the project will give it the nod with some conditions and send it up the line. That's not the end of the game though as it then needs the OK from the director of planning. He was the guy we paid $1K up front to get out to the site for a pre-submission briefing and he was fundamentally OK with our concept. He is also on good working terms with my architect given the amount of work my architect does on behalf of council too.

All looking up again. Just patiently waiting for the plans to get the big black OK stamp.

I've started the ball rolling with my personal banker on financing it too. She's going to get back to me this week on the $1M build cost loan. I've also asked her to see if she could throw in another $500K to buy a couple of nice cheap IPs I like the look of inter-state at the same time. That might be stretching the friendship a bit but time will tell. If need be, I'll just take the $1M for the Mona Vale build and worry about more IPs down the track. But it would be nice to have it all wouldn't it! **rubs hands together and laughs maniacally**

Thanks for the ongoing support from everyone here and I promise to keep you posted as more occurs.

Cheers,
Michael.

PS Also considered getting a security camera to catch the pest ripping down our DA application sign from the fence to try and delay proceedings. Architect advised against it and said the guy was already not being taken too seriously so we should save our $$. Took his advice and decided not to bother.

PPS There's a significant big modern commercial space going up in Mona Vale now too which can only help to lift the area. Mona Vale is basically the CBD of the Northern Beaches and we're within spitting distance of the town centre, library and council chambers. All are just 100-200m down our street. Here's a link to the new corporate development if you're interested. I can't read it as I don't have Flash 8 or some such... www.quattrocorporate.com.au

 

[lizzie]

PS Also considered getting a security camera to catch the pest ripping down our DA application sign from the fence to try and delay proceedings. Architect advised against it and said the guy was already not being taken too seriously so we should save our $$. Took his advice and decided not to bother.

thanks for the update michael - getting closer!!

can you just put up a sign saying you have a security camera? you don't acutally need the camera but it could save the nusiance factor.