The Somersoft Development

[MichaelW]

Peter,

The layout we're aiming at (and which I used the ground floor diagram for in my calculations) has a toilet downstairs with the laundry beside it. It also has a main bathroom upstairs near beds two and three, as well as an ensuite bathroom to the master bedroom. So a total of three loos in all, and two bathrooms upstairs.

The upstairs also has a study/theatre space at the top of the stairs which sits between the master bedroom and the two bedrooms along the back wall. The master is at the front with the ensuite beside it.

I might scan the whole floor plan in tonight and post a link tomorrow. This is in reality a fairly generic design which was used in multiple townhouses we inspected by multiple developers. Obviously we couldn't replicate it identically, but would need a number of modifications (I think three legally) before we could adopt something "similar".

Cheers,
Michael.

 

[MichaelW]

You may consider using a draftsperson rather than an architect to save costs. Drafties can design just as well as architects and generally have much more local Council knowledge and building experience. They will give you a set price for drawings rather than using a percentage of the final building costs (like architects generally do).

Jindaro,

Definately come find me at the next SIG. I have already considered that option seriously and still am. My only reservation was that a drafty might not have the good oil on local council that an architect might, but if that's not the case then its a drafty for me! If you want to quote to do the design for me on this one in Pittwater then that would be great. Wherever possible I want to use Somersoft folk in this development so they can be rewarded for helping the forum out over the years. So long as my quotes come in at or around market price then the Somersoftian's will be getting the job!

Cheers,
Michael.

 

[lizzie]

before you get to excited, ring the duty officer at council and ask them what parking is required. in our area regs are 1park per 2 beds, 2parks per 3+ beds, but they can be staggered (some areas they cannot be staggered, which is one in front of the other) and they are very cluey about people trying to claim a 3rd bedroom as a study/dining etc. basically if any room that can be enclosed from the rest of the house they call a bedroom (whether it is or not) and throw roadblocks (like making you relocate doorways) to prevent people chucking up an extra wall after final inspection to close off an area for another bedroom. courtyards must be a minimum dimension and size with some northerly aspect (etc etc)

then on top of that, in our area, if you have 3+ dwelling you need a visitor park ... and then another visitor park for every 5 dwelling, or part thereof, after that. if there are more than 1 dwelling in the development then vehicles must exit forwards - all of this chews up your groundspace significantly.

find out as much as you can about the regulations so that you can discuss this knowingly with your planner and not have any false expectations.

 

[MichaelW]

before you get to excited, ring the duty officer at council and ask them what parking is required.

Lizzie,

Yeah good idea. Instead of mucking around with maybe's I gave them a call and asked exactly that question. Apparently for two or more bedrooms I need to have two parking spaces allocated per dwelling, so will need to find 6 spaces all up on my site. To do that without excavation starts to chew up a lot of my green space. The middle townhouse effectively loses its yard in entirety to the double garage. So unless I can do something funky with entertaining decks on roofs like grossreal suggests, then I might need to consider excavation and the added cost that entails.

I've attached a picture of what it would look like with DLUGs and no excavation. Site coverage might be approaching that 50% mark too... One thing to note is that the site does fall to Darley St, so we might be able to just put the garages in at street level on Darley with stairs out to a courtyard on the roof of them and still be at street level for the main entry on Pittwater Rd. Just need to do some more thinking.

All good fun, we'll get there in the end.

Cheers,
Michael.

 

[Twitch]

I thought 2 parking spaces could comprise of a SLUG and space on the apron for a 2nd car. Does anyone know if this is right?

 

[MichaelW]

hmmm.

And it gets tougher. Just found this control after talking to the council guy. Basically, two per dwelling plus one visitor parking space per 3 dwellings rounded up. (Similar to what Lizzie described for her area). We're only doing three dwellings, but that's still 7 spaces we need to allow for. We might be excavating a basement after all.

Does anyone know what that stuff about garbage trucks etc in the DCP extract means?



Cheers,
Mike

 

[ok180]

hmmm.

Does anyone know what that stuff about garbage trucks etc in the DCP extract means?



Cheers,
Mike

I know the wash bay can double as a visitor car space sometimes im not sure about the garbage truck thing though, i guess the truck needs somewhere to stop if its a busy road? not sure...

 

[ok180]

With your building design i noticed also it doesnt seen to allow adequate set back from the roads, you'll find you usually need about 3 meters or so from the boundary sides & back depending on the amount of levels the buiding is but the surrounding roads may be the killer for you because most councils need much more than that for a road...

Keep in mind though this is the residential building and not other things like outbuildings and visitor car spaces...

 

[lizzie]

doesnt seen to allow adequate set back from the roads, you'll find you usually need about 3 meters or so

again, this depends. in our area it is either 5m "or" in line with the other houses in the street - which can be as little as a 1m setback.

beware of your courtyard space too, michael. we have to have a minimum courtyard of 35m with an area of 4x4m square within that 35m. this could be your deck on top of the garage.

i'm finding it's great to have a backup plan, in case your orginal choice just can't work. we're struggling to fit 3x2bed townhouses on our block because of darned turn circles (block is 10mx50m) ... so our backup is 2x3bed which will cost around the same to build, and valued at the same, but rental income will potentially be slightly less. takes the pressure off of being forced to try and comply when, at the end of the day, it might just not be possible - although we will try everything possible to get the 3x2bedders.

 

[MichaelW]

With your building design i noticed also it doesnt seen to allow adequate set back from the roads, you'll find you usually need about 3 meters or so from the boundary sides & back depending on the amount of levels the buiding is but the surrounding roads may be the killer for you because most councils need much more than that for a road...

ok180,

This is still a rough outline of the layout of the block, but I have allowed 3.0m setbacks from the road facing boundaries and 1.0m from the adjacent building boundary. This is all that council requires. Remember that this outline is for "my block" and that there is still the median strip between my block and the road which is not shown in this diagram. In fact there is a concrete path all the way around my block between it and the road, obviously that is on council land.

Lizzie, there is no restrictions on courtyard sizes for us. Just a maximum of 50% site coverage. If I were to try and torrens title them this might be a problem as the middle townhouse might then be more than 50% of its' site coverage. I'm tending towards excavating a basement for parking now anyway. This is what almost every other development in this area has adopted. Council has already given their verbal OK to that too. If it is just way too cost prohibitive then the Plan B was always going to be to just whack a duplex on it and be done. We can do that at a relatively low cost and still demand a really high price for each one. This is a very blue ribbon postcode.

Cheers,
Michael.

 

[coffee]

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1352&d=1151300844

In above link/pic, could you move the two lower properties up against the garages and use the top of the garages as a outdoor areas ?

Eg
http://allhomes.com.au/c/ah?a=sp&p=262524

Geoff

 

[lizzie]

sounds like you've got the bases covered michael - go for it!! and i'm excitedly watching your progress.

i just wanted to be a pseudo-sounding board in case you hadn't thought of some of the contigencies. sometimes it is to easy to get wound up in the excitement of the "possiblities" only to later find they don't fit and the plan has to change mid-stream (speaking from experience). much more comfortable to cover as much as possible from the start.

 

[thebuildingsurv]

You would fit the three dwellings on there if you designed them to suit the block. Long rectangles may not fit, the one closest to the corner may have to be a t-shape. A bit of shape my make a more interesting development.

 

[doreilly]

What would the costings look like for 2 higher end 3+study townhouses ?

Can you go to 3 levels ? I think you said no, but if you can excavate slightly anyway.

Are end apartments out of the question ?

Can you use car stackers ?

 

[Jindaro]

If you want to quote to do the design for me on this one in Pittwater then that would be great.

Thanks for the offer Michael, but I'm not actually taking on any private jobs at the moment as I'm busy enough with my workload and my own properties but I appreciate the thought.

Having said that, I'm always open to "look over" your plans for you.

Also, you continue talking about basement parking and excavation - this is an extremely costly part of building that I try to keep away from in my designs.

Just spoke to an estimator here and we've come up with the following costs per square metre of construction. This is based on a basement development in the Pittwater area that we are pricing.

Brick veneer on slab on ground - say $1000-1200/sqm
Basement parking, fully tanked etc - say $2000-2500/sqm

This may blow your development costs out. Also, have you considered that you will need to allow a portion of your site for a ramp into the basement. This will eat up some of the precious land.

Just my thoughts, but not knowing lots about your site, there may be a way around it.

 

[ram_vemula]

Thanks

Hi Michael,
Although I can't add any value to this thread, but I would like to give you kudos for starting this thread. As it's simply sensational how you are detailing the costs and more importantly all the issues/problems/challenges that arising and how you are going to overcome them. As I would like to do development when I can, I will be watching this thread with great interest. Thanks once again.

 

[MichaelW]

could you move the two lower properties up against the garages and use the top of the garages as a outdoor areas ?

Geoff,

Great idea, and sort of where I was heading anyway until I read a bit more into the council controls on parking. Here's what I've unearthed:

Avoid rows of multiple garages and long driveways, particularly those that create a ‘gun-barrel’ effect;
Only one driveway access to the public road nominated by Council is permitted.;
Provision is to be made for vehicles to enter and leave the site in a forward direction.

So it seems driveway access is going to be a sticking point. I might need to at least propose the integrated gun barrell garages on Darley St but don't like my chances.

I'm still sketching and thinking as I go, but the attached rough drawing is sort of where my thinking has progressed to now. No excavation required, but using integrated DLUG's per townhouse. This means I'll have to be clever in my townhouse design as I've just chewed up a fair bit of floor space. The driveway access on site also chews up a fair bit of my 50% site coverage too. Not to mention that the middle townhouse now has a very small courtyard as well. But this is all just a work in progress and my thinking on the go.

I'll know more when I get a professional on my team that can help maximise the site's potential.

Cheers,
Michael.

 

[MichaelW]

Brick veneer on slab on ground - say $1000-1200/sqm
Basement parking, fully tanked etc - say $2000-2500/sqm

This may blow your development costs out. Also, have you considered that you will need to allow a portion of your site for a ramp into the basement. This will eat up some of the precious land.

Sharon,

Yes I have allowed for ramp access in my initial basement sketches as per the attached picture. Could you please clarify those cost estimates for me a bit? Am I correct in assuming that the $2000-$2500 for the basement parking is the development cost for the basement component only, and that I would be then able to use the $1000-1200 for the above ground brick veneer developments on top?

i.e. If I am building 150m2 townhouses x 3 then my brick veneer component would be 450*$1000 on the light side which would be $450K. But to this I need to add say 180m2 of basement at 180*$2000=$360K, bringing my total cost estimate on the cheap side to $810K. Is that correct usage of those estimate numbers you supplied? Of course, the square metres required for the basement would need to be carefully calculated but I think the 180m2 would not be too far off the mark. The second picture is a quick basement sketch. If we assume each of those squares is 5.5mx5.5m then each one is 30.25m2. With six of these squares in the basement it looks roughly like 180m2 to a numpty like me...

Many thanks,
Michael.

 

[quoll]

G'day Michael

Have you thought about doing 3 story townhouses, that way you can have more parking, smaller footprint, maybe even get 4 on the block.

I guess the big question is does the council planning guidelines include 3 story buildings?

I know ours does and we are in the outer coastal burbs of Adelaide.

Cheers
quoll

 

[Jindaro]

Sharon, Could you please clarify those cost estimates for me a bit? Am I correct in assuming that the $2000-$2500 for the basement parking is the development cost for the basement component only, and that I would be then able to use the $1000-1200 for the above ground brick veneer developments on top?

Yes, that's the correct usage of the figures. It gets a bit exy doesn't it?

Also, was thinking last night, did you allow for:

1. Council section 94 contribution fees
2. Sydney Water section 73/ subdivider developer fees
3. Integral energy fees (only on some blocks)

These can run into the thousands too. Council can give you a cost of the S94 fees. This is indexed quarterly.

If you want any info re sewer etc, I will give you the name of a friend who works for a certifier on the northern beaches. She is extremely cluey and will point you in the right direction with this. Actually, it is her hubbie that is the estimator that gave me those earlier figures. The building industry is a small place and you find yourself working with the same people again and again.

Can you send me a scale drawing of the site? I'll have a play around with it if you like. As someone mentioned earlier, designing for the shape of the block will make the most out of it. This will mean that the units aren't all the same sizes but it will add interest and Council will love you.