Why the Navra Fund
- Thread starter obiwan
- Start date
indeed they are Bill.
Only using it as an example do not try to read too much into it
OSS
Only using it as an example do not try to read too much into it
OSS
Bill.L said:Hi all,
Are you suggesting that we treat investments emotionally??? Then again maybe some do, and you are correct!!
bye
Bill ... That's getting naughty
though , OSS , I must admit it's not an analogy I would have chosen in the circumstances....
Having said that and digressing , when you've been following the Swans for as long as I have , and they finally do win , the emotional high lasts for a looooooong time...
See Change
i promised myself id steer clear of any navra thread, but ive always wondered: is it a logical fallacy to expect a fund that invests solely in stocks that make up a fair portion of an index to be able to outperform that index (to a level of %5 - 10%)? i wonder if they would be better focusing on financially stable mid caps not part of the index, that way the performance of the individual stocks wouldnt skew the benchmark with which the fund is to be judged, and maybe there would be more volatility, required for the navra system to shine as i understand it.
my $0.02 for the evening.
my $0.02 for the evening.
That's right GP. Any stock selected MUST be in the ASX200; it must also qualify through their own fundamental analysis to qualify for inclusion.
If you bought shares, and held them, you would expect those shares to perhaps match the index- perhaps outperform them if you selected well. But the Navra methodology is to trade them on the way up, or on the way down. It's an approach which is supposed to get good results.
One other point. If the ASX200 is on the way down, but the fund drops less than the ASX200, the fund still collects their outperformance fee. So if the index drops 10%, and the fund 5%, they charge you their percentage of that 5% difference.
But, on the other side- comparing an income vs a growth fund.
If a growth fund gains a lot, and then loses it, you've had nothing to show for that time it got higher. But if an income fund rises, and then drops, you have had income for that time when the fund was higher, which you will not lose when it drops again (unless you reinvest that income). That may or may not suit one's own objectives.
If you bought shares, and held them, you would expect those shares to perhaps match the index- perhaps outperform them if you selected well. But the Navra methodology is to trade them on the way up, or on the way down. It's an approach which is supposed to get good results.
One other point. If the ASX200 is on the way down, but the fund drops less than the ASX200, the fund still collects their outperformance fee. So if the index drops 10%, and the fund 5%, they charge you their percentage of that 5% difference.
But, on the other side- comparing an income vs a growth fund.
If a growth fund gains a lot, and then loses it, you've had nothing to show for that time it got higher. But if an income fund rises, and then drops, you have had income for that time when the fund was higher, which you will not lose when it drops again (unless you reinvest that income
). That may or may not suit one's own objectives.GreatPig said:I don't think the stocks in the Navra fund do make up a fair portion of the index. According to the NavraInvest website, the current portfolio is 20 stocks, which is only 10% of the ASX200.
Of course it depends on your idea of "fair portion" though
Cheers,
GP
Not all stocks in the index are treated equally tho. Some of the top stocks by market cap may account for more than an equal share of the ASX200 index, therefore can affect the index result.
ie not every stock contributes 0.5% to the ASX200 index. Some like BHP, NAB, TLS account for up to 5% or more if i remember correctly.
So a 2% movement in these stocks may or will have a bigger impact on the ASX200 index result than a company listed at number 199 (by market capitalisation) moving 10%.
OSS
Geoff this is potentially misleading.geoffw said:edit... But, on the other side- comparing an income vs a growth fund.
If a growth fund gains a lot, and then loses it, you've had nothing to show for that time it got higher. But if an income fund rises, and then drops, you have had income for that time when the fund was higher, which you will not lose when it drops again (unless you reinvest that income
Simply selling units in a growth fund on a periodic basis would be exactly the same as receiving payment from an income fund (assuming you have a growth fund that charges you no or minimal transaction fees) and this would allow you personal control of the tax drag of the income as well.
The difference in your two examples is simply that in your first example you have taken money out of the market and in the second you didn't.
That may be. It's not my intention to mislead.Andrew_A said:
But on the other hand, if one reinvested profits from an income fund back into the fund, you've achieved the same results as a growth fund, but potentially with a bigger tax liability (because growth stocks held more than 12 months will give you a 50% CGT exemption).
True. Also I'm not aware how easy it is to find unit growth funds with no withdrawal fees, maybe it's not easy at all.geoffw said:
All comes back to how much value your fund manager can add to your investment in the end. I'm not -ve geared into property at the moment so the quarterly tax hits really didn't suit my personal situation.
But all I said was "Jehovah"
On the original topic :
http://www.investsmart.com.au/funds/search.asp
(If you want to compare funds like NavraInvest, look at Australian Equity, and you'll need to tick the "Not rated" box as NavraInvest has not been operating long enough to be rated, if you want to run a full comparison. including NI)
--------------------
Off the original topic but in line with the rest of the discussion :
Wow ! Its been a while since I searched for "navra" on this forum, but I see the emotion and substantial postings still flow ! If 'no publicity is bad publicity' I guess Steve Navra would be pleased.
Clarification / Disclaimer / Disclosure :
I am a shareholder and unitholder in NavraInvest
Why ?
Unitholding because :
- I tried direct investment in shares, following some of the fundamentals mentioned here, lost some / made some / broke even after 12 months of teeth-gnashing - - anyone who suggests you can learn the sharemarket and its idiosyncracies easily is having a lend of you
- I need some additional income while awaiting capital for next property development and also need some of my funds to be liquid
- managed funds might be the lazy way out but they beat the hell out of making nothing after one year of effort
- the presentation and PDS on NavraInvest made sense to me
Shareholding because :
- I bought some shares as I see growth potential in the Company, particularly when it launches its Dow Fund
I can second Pitt St's recommendation that the InvestEd forum is very useful (if I understand that message correctly ) depending on what sort of information you need. Not sure how many clones etc. you'll find, as there is some pretty healthy debate - its certainly not the Steve Navra fan club if that's what's being implied
I like being a member of Somersoft as there is no better property forum. I like being a member of InvestEd because it deals with a range of other investment, legal and accounting issues - a lot of the opinion and articles come from professionals in their field, which go beyond (and generally are easier to follow than) the 'opinions' you get in an open discussion - some posts in this thread being a prime example ;-) Not that there is * anything * wrong with everyone's ideas and opinions, but I prefer the less emotional discussions and clear substantiated direction
To clarify, the forum is not part of NavraInvest, it is run by another Investor Education style business in which Steve Navra is a shareholder (and founder, I think) - so you can be pro-Navra, anti-Navra whatever - I've not seen any evidence of posts being edited or refused.
I'm simply mentioning it because I think it would be a shame for investors to feel they have to choose one or the other forum - in my experience they are very complementary. Sort of liking having a wife/husband at home, and a mistress/toy boy at the beach house (depending on your persuasion). And there is certainly plenty of cross-referencing back to Somersoft from the InvestEd forum - just because some here have the name Navra knotted in their knickers shouldn't mean everyone else can't learn wherever the journey might take them ... (and before anyone goes feral, chill - its nearly the weekend after all)
I didn't invest in the Navra fund because I thought Steve Navra was the Messiah. The past and present performance of the fund, and the underlying security of the types of shares they hold, and the fund's relatively conservative nature, gave me confidence that it would perform ok for my needs. And so far it has. So does that make me right, wrong, clone, stupid ? I dunno. I'm too stupid to work that one out .
My understanding is the current market conditions do not suit the fund which operates best in periods of volatility, and it is correct that its not beating the index. But the performance at today's date still looks pretty good to me (the performance chart is available on the unmentionable website too).
The last distribution I received (the worst return I have received so far) meant
I DID :
. pay all the interest on the loan and left some to spend on lifestyle
. get a new rider mower the size of a small car (on which I am as flash as a rat with a gold tooth)
AND I DIDN'T :
. have to tune in to the stock market
. call my broker every day
. get to quote lots of important indices and figures
. run around yelling "Buy!Buy!Sell!Sell!" into my mobile phone.
Is it risk free ? No
Is it conservative ? Fairly
Can I get my money at short notice ? Yes
Is there regular income ? Yes
Is there growth : So far, for me, yes
Are the returns good ? So far, for me, yes
Is it better than leaving your money in the bank ? So far, for me, yes
Is it better than direct investment in shares ? In my particular situation - bloody oath
Will you ever see an impartial discussion about Navra on this forum ? Pig clearing for take off runway 5. There are too many interests with an axe to grind from both sides, IMHO.
The bottom line is whether NavraInvest is suited to you depends entirely on your personal situation, risk profile, experience etc. and should be discussed with your financial advisor.
Have an excellent weekend
Peace
Carl
On the original topic :
obiwan said:
http://www.investsmart.com.au/funds/search.asp
(If you want to compare funds like NavraInvest, look at Australian Equity, and you'll need to tick the "Not rated" box as NavraInvest has not been operating long enough to be rated, if you want to run a full comparison. including NI)
--------------------
Off the original topic but in line with the rest of the discussion
:Wow ! Its been a while since I searched for "navra" on this forum, but I see the emotion and substantial postings still flow ! If 'no publicity is bad publicity' I guess Steve Navra would be pleased.
Clarification / Disclaimer / Disclosure :
I am a shareholder and unitholder in NavraInvest
Why ?
Unitholding because :
- I tried direct investment in shares, following some of the fundamentals mentioned here, lost some / made some / broke even after 12 months of teeth-gnashing - - anyone who suggests you can learn the sharemarket and its idiosyncracies easily is having a lend of you
- I need some additional income while awaiting capital for next property development and also need some of my funds to be liquid
- managed funds might be the lazy way out but they beat the hell out of making nothing after one year of effort
- the presentation and PDS on NavraInvest made sense to me
Shareholding because :
- I bought some shares as I see growth potential in the Company, particularly when it launches its Dow Fund
Pitt St said:
I can second Pitt St's recommendation that the InvestEd forum is very useful (if I understand that message correctly
) depending on what sort of information you need. Not sure how many clones etc. you'll find, as there is some pretty healthy debate - its certainly not the Steve Navra fan club if that's what's being implied I like being a member of Somersoft as there is no better property forum. I like being a member of InvestEd because it deals with a range of other investment, legal and accounting issues - a lot of the opinion and articles come from professionals in their field, which go beyond (and generally are easier to follow than) the 'opinions' you get in an open discussion - some posts in this thread being a prime example ;-) Not that there is * anything * wrong with everyone's ideas and opinions, but I prefer the less emotional discussions and clear substantiated direction
To clarify, the forum is not part of NavraInvest, it is run by another Investor Education style business in which Steve Navra is a shareholder (and founder, I think) - so you can be pro-Navra, anti-Navra whatever - I've not seen any evidence of posts being edited or refused.
I'm simply mentioning it because I think it would be a shame for investors to feel they have to choose one or the other forum - in my experience they are very complementary. Sort of liking having a wife/husband at home, and a mistress/toy boy at the beach house (depending on your persuasion). And there is certainly plenty of cross-referencing back to Somersoft from the InvestEd forum - just because some here have the name Navra knotted in their knickers shouldn't mean everyone else can't learn wherever the journey might take them ... (and before anyone goes feral, chill - its nearly the weekend after all)
I didn't invest in the Navra fund because I thought Steve Navra was the Messiah. The past and present performance of the fund, and the underlying security of the types of shares they hold, and the fund's relatively conservative nature, gave me confidence that it would perform ok for my needs. And so far it has. So does that make me right, wrong, clone, stupid ? I dunno. I'm too stupid to work that one out
. My understanding is the current market conditions do not suit the fund which operates best in periods of volatility, and it is correct that its not beating the index. But the performance at today's date still looks pretty good to me (the performance chart is available on the unmentionable website too).
The last distribution I received (the worst return I have received so far) meant
I DID :
. pay all the interest on the loan and left some to spend on lifestyle
. get a new rider mower the size of a small car (on which I am as flash as a rat with a gold tooth)
AND I DIDN'T :
. have to tune in to the stock market
. call my broker every day
. get to quote lots of important indices and figures
. run around yelling "Buy!Buy!Sell!Sell!" into my mobile phone.
Is it risk free ? No
Is it conservative ? Fairly
Can I get my money at short notice ? Yes
Is there regular income ? Yes
Is there growth : So far, for me, yes
Are the returns good ? So far, for me, yes
Is it better than leaving your money in the bank ? So far, for me, yes
Is it better than direct investment in shares ? In my particular situation - bloody oath
Will you ever see an impartial discussion about Navra on this forum ? Pig clearing for take off runway 5. There are too many interests with an axe to grind from both sides, IMHO.
The bottom line is whether NavraInvest is suited to you depends entirely on your personal situation, risk profile, experience etc. and should be discussed with your financial advisor.
Have an excellent weekend
Peace
Carl
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Hot damn Carl, if that's not one of the best posts I've seen in a while!
Mark
Mark
TryHard said:
What have you done TryHard you have unleashed the demon again?
Being new to this forum I was very supprised when this topic got to 5 pages long and to see it at the top of the today's post list my jaw dropped ha ha
Thanks for the opening line (on the original topic?) it is funny how the topic of the thread can sometimes change when people start to get into heavy discussions. SO thanks for helping there, I will investigate it further.
Regards Obi
willair said:
Hi Willair
I guess you mean the shareholding in NavraInvest ?
They're unlisted shares and a speculative investment. I am comfortable with them because of the potential in the company's future growth, based on
$109M FUM and rising (I think it was $20M when Steve first started posting on Somersoft), and a launch into the US market due this quarter (a market which I understand exhibits significantly more volatility than the domestic market, and represents close to ideal trading conditions for the NavTrade system).
Do I think I could sell them if there was a 'problem'. A problem for me or a problem for NavraInvest ?
I purchased my holding through our SMSF. They were $2.50. I won't know what I make or lose until I sell them, or try to sell them. I don't intend to sell them, as I fully expect they will be one of the larger holdings within the SMSF many years down the track, earning a healthy dividend.
However, as I'm 38 years old, and I have to last another 20 + years to see any of the returns, I sincerely doubt any 'problem' myself, NavraInvest, or any of the shares I hold in that portfolio might encounter is going to have any real effect on me whatsoever ;-)
Mind you, if and when I make 60, I might start taking more notice. I have to survive the missus, a 15 month old maniac called Ella, two boxer dogs, a number of rather unhealthy addictions, and the traffic on the Western corridor into Brisbane, to make 39. One step at a time. No problem ;-)
Cheers
Carl
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Absolute pleasure mate. Sometimes it helps just to have a question answered.obiwan said:
Now, have I told you all what I think about {EDIT: Actually name deleted in case it causes a s***storm - let's just say another prominent strategic thinker who might gain benefit by posting on Somersoft} ... ?
Just jokes ... bye
ps I'm sure someone can post a reply and get us to 8 pages no worries at all ;-)
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