1st Development, which way to go??

[john888]

Hi Everyone,

Found this site not long ago and it has been a great source of information.

I am preparing to develop my block in the next couple of years and have started to chat to surveyors about getting a feature+contour survey done.

Everyone I have talked to have a 3 step process from 7-10K where they take care of the entire planning process, Is this a good way to go? Property development is a business I am looking to progress into a full time career and am keen to learn and understand everything.

I am leaning towards doing the process myself as I want to understand the process as much as possible.

Any feedback??

Cheers.

 

[Aaron_C]

There's several steps to it. I imagine what the surveyors are talking about are a few things:

1. The actual survey itself
2. Preparing and lodging the planning application
3. Title re-establishment and subdivision (when it is built)

Of course there are many more steps in-between (finance etc) but that is taken care of by other professionals.

The main point though is making sure that you get your concept/design right, and I imagine that is where the 7-10k fee comes into it. You need to be aware of that and if you are confident that you which concept is right then you can DIY that part yourself, I would say.

 

[john888]

Thanks for the reply Aaron,

I will go through the requirements from the WAPC and decide from their.

 

[Reality Cheque]

Hi Everyone,

Found this site not long ago and it has been a great source of information.

I am preparing to develop my block in the next couple of years and have started to chat to surveyors about getting a feature+contour survey done.

Everyone I have talked to have a 3 step process from 7-10K where they take care of the entire planning process, Is this a good way to go? Property development is a business I am looking to progress into a full time career and am keen to learn and understand everything.

I am leaning towards doing the process myself as I want to understand the process as much as possible.

Any feedback??

Cheers.

Definitely look at managing the process yourself.

Not only will you learn a lot but you'll probably save a lot also.

Here is an example of costing on a 2 lot subdivision I did recently-

To get a surveyor to manage the whole process of

-planning
-surveying
-getting through council
-registration of title

we were looking at around $7500 in total.

I got the planning done for $300 and done a lot myself.
Actual surveying was $2500
Got my solicitor to handle registration of title for $500.

Total cost $3300 by managing things myself.

RC

 

[Aaron_C]

Total cost $3300 by managing things myself.

True but that's not the point. If you are bad at getting concepts right then paying the small fee may be worthwhile for you.

 

[Reality Cheque]

True but that's not the point. If you are bad at getting concepts right then paying the small fee may be worthwhile for you.

I just cant justify giving money away for nothing. When I asked the surveyor to break down the costs he was charging $1500 for handling the registration of the title. My solicitor did it for $500.

For the surveyor to draw up the original plans for the DA was $1500. Got it done for $300 by a GPS mapping service.

And that was the cheapest quote I got from a surveyor, there were plenty dearer than that.

I admit my subdivision was fairly straight forward but in my experience thus far I reckon let surveyors look after the surveying and have a go at the rest yourself.

RC

 

[Stacey Survey]

I just cant justify giving money away for nothing. When I asked the surveyor to break down the costs he was charging $1500 for handling the registration of the title. My solicitor did it for $500.

For the surveyor to draw up the original plans for the DA was $1500. Got it done for $300 by a GPS mapping service.

And that was the cheapest quote I got from a surveyor, there were plenty dearer than that.

I admit my subdivision was fairly straight forward but in my experience thus far I reckon let surveyors look after the surveying and have a go at the rest yourself.

RC

$300 for Feature and Level to AHD with neighborhood description (site analysis?). What kind of detail is it and are all planning considerations shown?

Sounds to me like the vicmap service which just shows contours and basic land use. Interested to see what level of product you for with the gps people.

In Vic to get a good quality Feature and Level from a good surveyor it's around the $1300-$1500 mark then add anywhere from $600-900 for neighborhood description depending on difficulty and density of surrounding dwellings.

Obviously there are cheap people out there but the chances of council asking for more information get more certain with dodgy surveyors, so you end up paying more than in the first place.

Good luck with the development to the op anyway!

Cheers,

 

[Philip Thomas]

Development - Get the Right Advice

I just cant justify giving money away for nothing. When I asked the surveyor to break down the costs he was charging $1500 for handling the registration of the title. My solicitor did it for $500.

For the surveyor to draw up the original plans for the DA was $1500. Got it done for $300 by a GPS mapping service.

And that was the cheapest quote I got from a surveyor, there were plenty dearer than that.

I admit my subdivision was fairly straight forward but in my experience thus far I reckon let surveyors look after the surveying and have a go at the rest yourself.

RC

This is difficult advice to agree with.

Firstly, surveyor hourly rates are more than 1/2 that of solicitors. The $1,500 fee the surveyor proposed looks like it included the LPI / Titles Office lodgement fee which last time i looked was around $1,363 in NSW for a 2 lot subdivision. Assuming there were not 88B instruments with the lodgement, then the surveyors lodgement fee was $137, way less than the solicitors $500 fee.

Secondly. It's hard to tell what the surveyors $1,500 was for. Possibly a Level & Feature Survey to accompany the DA or it could have been for a Draft Plan of Subdivision. There is no comparison with a $300 sketch from a draftsperson. A sketch may be adequate in some cases, though it there are issues a Draft Plan of Subdivision done on Titles Office plan form is far superior.

Thirdly, if you want to be an expert at preparing Development Applications then by all means do it yourself. Look at the cost in terms of time & $$$ when your Development Application is rejected because its not correct or you missed something.

Finally, most successful developers understand their value contribution; finding the right property, securing finance & being creative in adding value to make a profit. Spending your time doing anything other than this not only a poor use of your time, but it also puts your development at risk.

Risk Management is a key component of successful development. So to is understanding your strengths & using your time & capital to the best of your abilities.

What you do & how you spend your time; the choice is yours!!!

 

[matto_]

I am in a similar boat. Do I get someone to walk me through the process for the first one - or engage the various experts myself and walk through the process myself.

@ Reality Cheque - did you have much background/knowledge of the overall process?

 

[Reality Cheque]

This is difficult advice to agree with.

Firstly, surveyor hourly rates are more than 1/2 that of solicitors. The $1,500 fee the surveyor proposed looks like it included the LPI / Titles Office lodgement fee which last time i looked was around $1,363 in NSW for a 2 lot subdivision. Assuming there were not 88B instruments with the lodgement, then the surveyors lodgement fee was $137, way less than the solicitors $500 fee.

Secondly. It's hard to tell what the surveyors $1,500 was for. Possibly a Level & Feature Survey to accompany the DA or it could have been for a Draft Plan of Subdivision. There is no comparison with a $300 sketch from a draftsperson. A sketch may be adequate in some cases, though it there are issues a Draft Plan of Subdivision done on Titles Office plan form is far superior.

Thirdly, if you want to be an expert at preparing Development Applications then by all means do it yourself. Look at the cost in terms of time & $$$ when your Development Application is rejected because its not correct or you missed something.

Finally, most successful developers understand their value contribution; finding the right property, securing finance & being creative in adding value to make a profit. Spending your time doing anything other than this not only a poor use of your time, but it also puts your development at risk.

Risk Management is a key component of successful development. So to is understanding your strengths & using your time & capital to the best of your abilities.

What you do & how you spend your time; the choice is yours!!!

Philip,

No doubt you know far more about this than I do so I won't argue with anything you've said.

All I can do is tell it how it was in my situation.

The $1500 surveyors fee didn't include lodgement fee and there were 88b instruments.

The GPS/computer generated plan was accepted by council without a hitch and they even commented that they hadn't seen it done that way before and were interested to know more about it.

It all went through smoothly and I was quite happy with the result. For all I know the next one could be a complete disaster and I'll be taking your advice.

Rgds

RC

 

[Reality Cheque]

$300 for Feature and Level to AHD with neighborhood description (site analysis?). What kind of detail is it and are all planning considerations shown?

Sounds to me like the vicmap service which just shows contours and basic land use. Interested to see what level of product you for with the gps people.

In Vic to get a good quality Feature and Level from a good surveyor it's around the $1300-$1500 mark then add anywhere from $600-900 for neighborhood description depending on difficulty and density of surrounding dwellings.

Obviously there are cheap people out there but the chances of council asking for more information get more certain with dodgy surveyors, so you end up paying more than in the first place.

Good luck with the development to the op anyway!

Cheers,

Not sure how much detail is possible with the GPS mapping program but I admit that there wasn't a lot of detail needed for my subdivision.

I know my surveyor originally bagged out the whole GPS idea but had to humblely remove the GPS placed pegs to hammer his in.

Once again, this may have been unique to my development. I let you know how I go with the one I'm doing now!

RC

 

[Reality Cheque]

I am in a similar boat. Do I get someone to walk me through the process for the first one - or engage the various experts myself and walk through the process myself.

@ Reality Cheque - did you have much background/knowledge of the overall process?

No background/knowledge whatsover before doing the first one. Just started on my second one in the last few weeks.

RC

 

[Rockstar]

I also had no background before my first one. I studied the DCP and met with council planning staff before submission. Doing No. 5 now and know the process thoroughly. If you are in for the long term and are only doing small scale it is wise to learn the process. This doesn't necessarily doing No. 1 on your own but watching the profesionals and studying the steps they take to guide the process through to construction cert. Build good relationships with your solicitor and surveyor and don't be afraid to consult council planning staff (senior if possible)

 

[Philip Thomas]

"watching the profesionals and studying the steps they take to guide the process through to construction cert. Build good relationships with your solicitor and surveyor and don't be afraid to consult council planning staff (senior if possible)"

is sound advice Rockstar.

 

[Reality Cheque]

I also had no background before my first one. I studied the DCP and met with council planning staff before submission. Doing No. 5 now and know the process thoroughly. If you are in for the long term and are only doing small scale it is wise to learn the process. This doesn't necessarily doing No. 1 on your own but watching the profesionals and studying the steps they take to guide the process through to construction cert. Build good relationships with your solicitor and surveyor and don't be afraid to consult council planning staff (senior if possible)

That's the key, talking to planning staff.

If you don't know what you're doing they'll soon let you know.

RC

 

[Philip Thomas]

Reality Cheque & Rockstar am sure you could both add some value to the post "Bob Anderson, Billion Dollar Developers Coaching Program????" as you have both been doing development (subdivisions) & that post has a similar theme to this one.

 

[Stacey Survey]

Not sure how much detail is possible with the GPS mapping program but I admit that there wasn't a lot of detail needed for my subdivision.

I know my surveyor originally bagged out the whole GPS idea but had to humblely remove the GPS placed pegs to hammer his in.

Once again, this may have been unique to my development. I let you know how I go with the one I'm doing now!

RC

I agree that GPS does have its uses. A company I worked for a few years ago did much survey work in rural Victoria and heavily relied on GPS. We used brand new equipment and got about a 30mm cube of accuracy when 10+ satellites were available.

In suburban areas it falls to pieces. Multipath is a huge issue of signals bouncing off solid objects (buildings, trees, power poles etc.). Even if it says you're locked on there can be huge errors so it is a bit of a gamble. I'm not saying this happens all the time but I wouldn't be comfortable marking anyone's boundary with a GPS unit.

For pegging a connection to a datum needs to be set-up. This is the location of existing survey marks and rotating the new survey to fit. Having the GPS typical error 'cube' makes for a unreliable datum in suburban areas when compared to the traditional theodolite which is accurate to +/- 0.5 mm. In country areas then a 30mm uncertainty for each measurement is a bearable error.

Incidentally, councils in Vic will accept GPS for height datums as it is considered better than using the existing permanent marks around Melbourne which were levelled with traditional methods such as the old dumpy level. This leaves about a 120mm error in 'known' heights in the outer ring of suburbs.

I think there are uses for the technology and it does have its merits, but with many surveying strategies a more reliable result is achieved using tried and tested methods. It ultimately comes down to what suits the individual project best.

(sorry for the long rambling post!)

Cheers,

 

[Reality Cheque]

I agree that GPS does have its uses. A company I worked for a few years ago did much survey work in rural Victoria and heavily relied on GPS. We used brand new equipment and got about a 30mm cube of accuracy when 10+ satellites were available.

In suburban areas it falls to pieces. Multipath is a huge issue of signals bouncing off solid objects (buildings, trees, power poles etc.). Even if it says you're locked on there can be huge errors so it is a bit of a gamble. I'm not saying this happens all the time but I wouldn't be comfortable marking anyone's boundary with a GPS unit.

For pegging a connection to a datum needs to be set-up. This is the location of existing survey marks and rotating the new survey to fit. Having the GPS typical error 'cube' makes for a unreliable datum in suburban areas when compared to the traditional theodolite which is accurate to +/- 0.5 mm. In country areas then a 30mm uncertainty for each measurement is a bearable error.

Incidentally, councils in Vic will accept GPS for height datums as it is considered better than using the existing permanent marks around Melbourne which were levelled with traditional methods such as the old dumpy level. This leaves about a 120mm error in 'known' heights in the outer ring of suburbs.

I think there are uses for the technology and it does have its merits, but with many surveying strategies a more reliable result is achieved using tried and tested methods. It ultimately comes down to what suits the individual project best.

(sorry for the long rambling post!)

Cheers,

What you're saying makes sense in regard to my subdivisions so far. They are rural residential blocks so obviously not the level of accuracy needed compared to a suburban site

RC

 

[john888]

I also had no background before my first one. I studied the DCP and met with council planning staff before submission. Doing No. 5 now and know the process thoroughly. If you are in for the long term and are only doing small scale it is wise to learn the process. This doesn't necessarily doing No. 1 on your own but watching the profesionals and studying the steps they take to guide the process through to construction cert. Build good relationships with your solicitor and surveyor and don't be afraid to consult council planning staff (senior if possible)

Thanks Rockstar, thats great advice. So with your first , you let the surveyor go through the steps to get it through to DA stage? I would be keen to learn more about your journey to your 5th if you had time and wanted to share with me? otherwise all good.

 

[Rockstar]

Thanks Rockstar, thats great advice. So with your first , you let the surveyor go through the steps to get it through to DA stage? I would be keen to learn more about your journey to your 5th if you had time and wanted to share with me? otherwise all good.

My first was built by a project builder but I organised the DA dual occ submission and they submitted the plans. Their surveyor did the set out for the buildings and my surveyor did the strata - which was done after the occupation cert was issued. See the below links for more stories on my developments. Didn't do one for the 1st duplex.

http://somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44120&highlight=Rockstars+diary

http://somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58256&highlight=home+duplex

http://somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63584&highlight=duplex+addict

http://somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77733&highlight=duplex