2008 - the year of the credit crunch?

An interesting website where the blogger has done research on the amount of "unreliably valued" assets (level 3 assets) several of the major banks in the USA have as a percentage of their equity.

http://www.rgemonitor.com/blog/roubini/224871/

worst ones are

Goldman Sachs, Level 3 assets are $72 billion, equity base is $39 billion. Their Level 3 assets to equity ratio is 185%.

Morgan Stanley: $88 billion in Level 3, equity base is $35 billion. Ratio: 251%


Level Three assets are valued according to model and are typically CDO's and other investments that have recently become pretty illiquid (and worth next to nothing).

So if they do decide to mark to market instead of model the banks are worthless. The top 5 investment banks have $350Bn at risk in the marked to model level 3 assets, which is a bit more than the amounts you have mentioned Michael.

The reason this is important at the moment is on November 15th this year, the FASB 157 regulatons come into place, and the banks will be forced to use market valuations, not the model valuations.

I think Bernanke has his hand on it, just as Greenspan did for 20 years. I liked Greenspan much more when he was a libertarian and favoured a gold standard.
 
Does the apparent popularity of CDOs help explain the Derivex model (remember them)?

What is clear, is that there was oceans of money available to be lent out. In the US they targeted the poorest sectors and allowed "liar loans", just to get something to bundle up and on-sell. The D model was to target selected, credit worthy borrowers by offering 0% int loans and sell them on.

I'm sure these big banks would now prefer the high quality D loans, designated in A$ than what they ended up with. It always looked as if this was their strategy. It's all academic now though. Pity. :)
 
An interesting website where the blogger has done research on the amount of "unreliably valued" assets (level 3 assets) several of the major banks in the USA have as a percentage of their equity.

http://www.rgemonitor.com/blog/roubini/224871/

worst ones are

Goldman Sachs, Level 3 assets are $72 billion, equity base is $39 billion. Their Level 3 assets to equity ratio is 185%.

Morgan Stanley: $88 billion in Level 3, equity base is $35 billion. Ratio: 251%


Level Three assets are valued according to model and are typically CDO's and other investments that have recently become pretty illiquid (and worth next to nothing).

So if they do decide to mark to market instead of model the banks are worthless. The top 5 investment banks have $350Bn at risk in the marked to model level 3 assets, which is a bit more than the amounts you have mentioned Michael.

The reason this is important at the moment is on November 15th this year, the FASB 157 regulatons come into place, and the banks will be forced to use market valuations, not the model valuations.

I think Bernanke has his hand on it, just as Greenspan did for 20 years. I liked Greenspan much more when he was a libertarian and favoured a gold standard.
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Dear Miner,

Hmmm... more bleeding to come in 2008 as Bernanke has last updated the US Congressional Committee.

I am wondering if Australia would be adversely affected in any way, as a result of this continuing saga as the full impact of the US Credit Crunch Crisis is being played out, in due course?

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH
 
Great Thread Link.

I have just given this thread a 5 star rating. Please consider doing the same to draw attention to other members if you feel this is worth reading..

Peter 14.7
 
Another day and another announcement

Global banking giant HSBC said Wednesday that bad debts in the United States linked to the subprime crisis and credit squeeze rose almost a third to 3.4 billion dollars in the third quarter, from the previous three month period.

The group added in a trading update, that with HSBC having to write off loans, totalling the equivalent of 2.3 billion euros, it had decided to shut an additional 260 branches at its US consumer finance division.

In September, HSBC had announced the closure of 100 branches with the loss of 750 jobs.


Full story at:

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gKEK8z0cAQ5uFl_-zwEPMSQugqew

Seems HSBC has found they are more exposed then they thought (admitted??) late last year AND states they are now unsure re future losses.

Hummm, any comments or is this thread dead? Peter 14.7
 
How do you value something when no one wants to buy any? Its like trying to sell a Porshe for even $100 if all of a sudden, the ice cap melts and there are no more roads cos its all under water. Extreme example I know but this is pretty much what goes on when you have exotic CDOs on your books.
 
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Dear Miner,

Hmmm... more bleeding to come in 2008 as Bernanke has last updated the US Congressional Committee.

I am wondering if Australia would be adversely affected in any way, as a result of this continuing saga as the full impact of the US Credit Crunch Crisis is being played out, in due course?

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

Kenneth I think there are three obvious ways we will have impacts.

The first and direct one is higher cost of credit. Given that in the last month our nominal GDP increased from $1045.708Bn by $6.952Bn, and our private debt increased from $1703.964Bn by $18.714Bn, any higher cost of us obtaining credit will have severe impacts on our real economy. We have to keep increasing our borrowing to keep things the same as they are. It is impossible to continue doing that for the long term.

The second is consumers in the USA take fright and reduce consumption, leading to reduced Chinese imports to the USA, and leading to reduced exports of commodities from Aus to China. Hope those 300m middle class Chinese step up to the plate and start consuming madly.

The third is we are now in a pretty thoroughly globalised world and things don't happen in isolation any more. This may be where a black swan comes from.
 
Kenneth,

I notice you're in Singapore. I'm here too at the moment and thinking about financing an Aussie purchase in Singapore dollars due to the lower interest rates.

Can I ask if you've done that, and if so, do you have a strategy for protecting against the Xrate risk?

Any views greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Ralph
 
Dear All,

1. It was reported in the Singapore Business Times today that:

"... the Fed has cut its outlook for 2008 US economic growth to 1.8-2.5 per cent, down from 2.5-2.75 per cent. "

"The downward revision stemmed from a number of factors, 'including the tightened terms and reduced availability of sub-prime and jumbo mortgages, weaker-than-expected housing data, and rising oil prices'.

"Investors - and central bankers - would therefore do well to note this insight from Mr Greenspan in his book, (The Age of Turbulence") :

'Historically, societies that seek high levels of instant gratification and are willing to borrow against future incomes to achieve it, have more often than not, suffered inflation and stagnation.

' The economies of such societies tend to run larger government deficits financed with fiat money from a printing press . . . Eventually, the ensuing inflation leads to a recession or worse, often because central banks are forced to clamp down . . . I regret that the US may not be wholly immune to it.'

2. Will Australia be able to effectively insulate itself and escape this impending US Recession unscathed again in the immediate near future in the 2008-2009 period, as in the past financial crises?

3. For your kind update and further discussion, please.

4. Thank you.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH
*************************************************
Published November 22, 2007
Singapore Business Times Newspapers

US credit crunch - will history repeat itself?


IT was about two months ago on Sept 18 that the US Federal Reserve cut its short-term lending rate by 50 basis points to 4.75 per cent, sparking a worldwide rally in relieved stock markets. After a rise that lasted about two weeks, however, the rally then stalled. This was followed by a 25 basis point cut on Oct 30 but again, after a brief spike-up, markets have failed to respond.

Hopes are now high among analysts that the Fed will play saviour once again at its next meeting on Dec 11 - indeed, the futures market is certain that rates will be lowered again.

But given that the two cuts totalling 75 basis points have not provided the necessary stimulus yet, will more cuts really do the trick?

In his book, The Age of Turbulence, former Fed chairman Alan Greenspan wrote about the savings and loan (S&L) crisis of the late 1980s and the related property market crash that led to the closure of several banks and a recession in 1990-1992. The subsequent credit tightening meant that businesses found it hard to get loans and this, in turn, made the recession difficult to overcome.

'Nothing we did at the Fed seemed to work,' wrote Mr Greenspan. 'We'd begun lowering interest rates well before the recession hit but the economy had stopped responding. Even though we lowered the fed funds rate no fewer than 23 times in the three-year period between July 1989 and July 1992, the recovery was one of the most sluggish on record.'

Those words must have an uncannily familiar ring to those who have tracked the current sub-prime crisis.

In its latest quarterly economic projections, for example, the Fed has cut its outlook for 2008 US economic growth to 1.8-2.5 per cent, down from 2.5-2.75 per cent. The downward revision stemmed from a number of factors, 'including the tightened terms and reduced availability of sub-prime and jumbo mortgages, weaker-than-expected housing data, and rising oil prices'.

Worse, the situation today is potentially more damaging than during the S&L crisis because of the opacity surrounding the collateralised debt obligations market. Bad loans with questionable payment streams were embedded within complicated packages that were then marketed as being of good investment grade.

To further complicate the picture, derivative products are involved, which means the effect of a collapse could be magnified by leverage.

Investors - and central bankers - would therefore do well to note this insight from Mr Greenspan in his book: 'Historically, societies that seek high levels of instant gratification and are willing to borrow against future incomes to achieve it have more often than not suffered inflation and stagnation.

' The economies of such societies tend to run larger government deficits financed with fiat money from a printing press . . . Eventually, the ensuing inflation leads to a recession or worse, often because central banks are forced to clamp down . . . I regret that the US may not be wholly immune to it.'


http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/sub/views/story/0,4574,257564,00.html?
 
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Kenneth,

I notice you're in Singapore. I'm here too at the moment and thinking about financing an Aussie purchase in Singapore dollars due to the lower interest rates.

Can I ask if you've done that, and if so, do you have a strategy for protecting against the Xrate risk?

Any views greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Ralph
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Dear Ralph,

1. No, I have not done that yet.

2. Perhaps, you may wish to follow up on the following discussion pertaining to this topic in another thread, entitled, "Finance in Singapore, Invest in Oz" at the following link:

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37234

3. Thank you.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH
 
So the global credit crunch equals a quarter of one percent in the global cost of capital? That certainly isn't the end of the world. If $100Bn equals a quarter of one percent, then $150Bn worst case equals 0.375%. Not even half a percent...

Cheers,
Michael.
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Dear Michael,

1. So much so for your optmisim.

2. It was further reported by Bloomberg.com yesterday, as per the u/m extract below, that:

a. "the slump in global credit markets may force banks, brokerages and hedge funds to cut lending by US $2 trillion",

b." the recent (stock market) correction is only a precursor of a more protracted (stock market?/housing?/economic?) downturn.''

3. For your further comments and discussion, please.

4. Thank you.

regards
Kenneth KOH

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Nov. 22 (Bloomberg) -- Losses from U.S. subprime mortgage foreclosures, coupled with slowing economic growth and falling house prices, could reach as much as $300 billion, the OECD said.

Global stock markets have lost $2.9 trillion since Oct. 31 and the collapse of the subprime market in the U.S. has triggered about $50 billion in writedowns among the world's largest banks.

The U.S. dollar could also face further downward pressure as overseas investors who previously bought structured products based on subprime loans become more unwilling to buy higher-yielding debt, the OECD said.

Recent economic news points towards a more protracted economic adjustment,'' the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development said in a report released yesterday in Paris.

``A recession in the U.S. is now seen as more likely than before by some observers.''

"The number of economists forecasting a U.S. recession almost doubled in the past two months, according to a survey by the National Association for Business Economics."

U.S. home foreclosures doubled in the third quarter from a year earlier as subprime borrowers failed to make higher payments on adjustable-rate mortgages. The jump in foreclosures is exacerbating the U.S. housing recession by increasing the number of homes on the market as sales and prices decline.

Foreclosures are likely to rise over the next few quarters, and the ``adjustment'' in the U.S. housing market has ``a way to go,'' Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis President Gary Stern said this week.

``Roughly a fifth of subprime mortgages are estimated to be at risk of default,'' the OECD said. `

"Interest rates on about $750 billion of subprime loans may be reset this year, and the amount will probably climb to $890 billion in 2008,
the OECD said. The report assumes a hypothetical loss rate of 14 percent, or $125 billion, on subprime mortgages after borrowing costs are reset next year."

`The bulk of such resets is expected to peak in the first quarter of 2008, which in turn is expected to prompt a further increase in default rates,'' the OECD said. ``Foreclosures, which have also risen sharply, could reach historical highs.''

Losses at banks and securities firms are fueling concern that rising delinquencies on home loans to people with poor credit will drag down the economy.

The slump in global credit markets may force banks, brokerages and hedge funds to cut lending by $2 trillion, Goldman Sachs economists said last week.

"It may well be that the recent correction is only a precursor of a more protracted downturn.''

"The U.S. dollar has fallen against 14 of the 16 most- actively traded currencies this year."

"Rising oil and commodity prices are creeping into inflation expectations.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?
 
Dear All,

1. The present global credit crunch is expected to continue to play out itself, further throughout 2008, leading into a tighter credit liquidity/lending practices or/and higher interest rate to be experienced in Australia, in the near future.

2. What do you envisage are its immediate impacts on the local housing markets in Australia and how do you intend to do in order to make your own property investing safer and profitable over the next few years.

3. Looking forward to learning from each one of you, please.

4. Thank you.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH
 
I believe that it impact the commercial property market much more than the residential property market.

For residential property in Australia, it may slow down a bit the capital growth, but it's unlikely to trigger house price decline as long as the economy is healthy.

It is worth considering fixing interest rates for those who haven't. At least you know how much interest you will be paying over the next x years.

Cheers,
 
Dear All,

1. The present global credit crunch is expected to continue to play out itself, further throughout 2008, leading into a tighter credit liquidity/lending practices or/and higher interest rate to be experienced in Australia, in the near future.

2. What do you envisage are its immediate impacts on the local housing markets in Australia and how do you intend to do in order to make your own property investing safer and profitable over the next few years.


Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

In short, like Yoda, "hard to say, dark side clouds thinking."

If the economy tanks we slow and the spending slows and the need to rise rates slows. Rates dont rise then demand can increase. Prices Rise.

As lending dries up we see rates rise and banks are forced or wish to do so as an excuse. That is not good.

The fact is the world are end of a great boom and it probably will flatten and not die but who knows. The USA is in real trouble. They could go into depression. Jobs losses etc..

But unlike the USA we dont have an oversupply of homes anywhere. Rental market is tight everywhere. People have to live somewhere.

It is not the end but a new phase.

Personally I maxed out my investment portfolio these last six month and fixed 80% of all my loans at 7.65% for 5 years. I can ride out any issues.

With less growth due to higher rates then we have lower supply and the higher rents I can charge.

Peter 14.7
 
But unlike the USA we dont have an oversupply of homes anywhere. Rental market is tight everywhere. People have to live somewhere.

It is not the end but a new phase.

Peter 14.7
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Dear Peter,

1. I fully agree with you on this point.

2. The latest issue of the ANZ Property Outlook for Jan 2008 has also reported that a record housing shortage of 200,000 houses by 2010 may also occur.

3. Consequently, ANZ Bank believes a dramatic tightening of the Australian housing market will force existing soaring house prices and rents sharply higher in the near future.

http://www.anz.com/Business/info_centre/economic_commentary/Property-Outlook-Jan-2008.pdf

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH
 
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Dear All,

1. TREASURER Wayne Swan says "Australia remains well placed to deal with the global economic fallout from the US sub-prime housing market crisis."

"(But) all the advice that I have is that we are well placed to cope with the fallout of all of those issues because we have first class financial regulators in this country,"

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,22885884-951,00.html

2. Do you share Wayne Swan's optimism? Why yes and why not? Who were the first class financial regulators in Australia whom Wayne Swan was actually referring to?

3. For your further discussion, please.

4. Thank you.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH
 
Dear All,

1. It was reported today that

"... the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) has continued to provide ample liquidity to the banking system, helping to keep money market rates below recent highs."

"The central bank has this week boosted the aggregate level of exchange settlement (ES) funds, the cash banks hold on deposit with the RBA to settle transactions with one another and the RBA itself, to about $6.5 billion."

"The RBA's response to the initial surge in demand for ES funds and the matching rise in market rates in August was to flood the banking system with cash, boosting ES balances to $5.5 billion, six times the norm."

"The tactic was successful."

"Market rates eased back, but the dislocation in the money market worsened again this month, driving an even bigger wedge between market rates and the overnight cash rate."

"The response has been an even bigger cash injection from the RBA, lifting ES balances to an unprecedented $6.6 billion."

"Again it has been successful, with the gap between cash and bills falling from a high of 57 basis points (0.57 per cent) to around 38."

http://news.smh.com.au/rba-continues-to-boost-market-liquidity/20071228-1jc2.html


2. Well done! RBA.


Cheers,
Kenneth KOH
 
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