Abolish negative gearing

Don't forget that at the time that a self-funded retiree needs full time care in a nursing home, their years of (possible) negative gearing means they pay a huge amount for the same care as someone else who might be on the pension. Someone who didn't plan and "do without" gets full care and those who planned carefully are slugged heavily.

Is that fair?

It cost $500K to get Dad a place and roughly $750 per week (this will increase per week for the next year due to a capital gain from sale of half a house recently).

The person in the next room who didn't negative gear (and not self-funded retirees used negative gearing, let me add) pays something like 80% (?) of their pension for the exact same care.
 
It cost $500K to get Dad a place and roughly $750 per week (this will increase per week for the next year due to a capital gain from sale of half a house recently).

The person in the next room who didn't negative gear (and not self-funded retirees used negative gearing, let me add) pays something like 80% (?) of their pension for the exact same care.
It's far from fair; in fact, it's infuriating. :mad:
 
Kudos Kristine, well said. ;)

Adding to the points already stated, let's not forget that investor involvement drives up demand and definitely increases turnover. This turnover yields state & federal government stamp duty and CGT (no CGT on a PPOR).

If they pushed a large portion of investors out of the market, they would significantly reduce property turnover & reduce the big tax grab fraud that is just a big tax gravy train. Short term, this gravy train is offsetting the -ve gearing loss & long term, Kristine nailed it on the head! Getting rid of -ve gearing would cripple the government now & into the future... won't happen.
 
that will crash the property market AND jack rents through the roof.

renters can't afford the rent, so they end up in public housing.

which has yet to be built.

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing saying public housing must be newly built. I know of quite a few well-established properties that are owned by the Department of Housing.

If the market 'crashed', then surely the Dep of Housing could buy old places instead of building new.
 
As far as I'm aware, there's nothing saying public housing must be newly built. I know of quite a few well-established properties that are owned by the Department of Housing.

If the market 'crashed', then surely the Dep of Housing could buy old places instead of building new.

Sure, they could, but the reality is that they are selling off vast quantities of the older stock due to age issues. Maintenance does not appear to be a strong point.
 
if you abolish neg gearing, then in my eyes you should also abolish CGT exemption for PPOR. They are both an incentive for the individual to invest in a relatively stable asset class (property) for their future retirement..... and all govt's know that the better financiall off an individual is upon retirement, the less of a tax burden that individual becomes on the state.

The aging population is a problem that is right up there with any economic issue of this day IMO. Within a couple of decades (ie, my working lifetime), there will be a massively disproportionate amount of state dependent retirees (ie, on the pension) versus active tax payers. This will severely hinder any government's ability to function and operate.... without either increasing taxes, increasing the retirement age, or cutting pension payments, or a combination of all.


Neg gearing is a good thing.
.... and no, i dont rely on it. My IPs are virtually neutral before tax.
 
If they were to abolish NG (and I don't believe they should for all the reasons posted above) - I would hope they would do so with a grandfather clause i.e. existing negatively geared properties are exempt.

I play the game by the rules but if the rules change @ half time I'll be annoyed.
 
Neg gearing is a good thing.
.... and no, i dont rely on it. My IPs are virtually neutral before tax.

Same here. My portfolio is cashflow positive, but I don't think there's anything wrong with negative gearing for a period as the property trends toward positive cashflow.

There are two simple facts here:
1) In the scheme of things, negative gearing tax benefits don't really cost that much (especially when the benefits to the govt are considered); and
2) The wealthier people are when they retire, the less burden they are on the govt. People are living longer and longer, and already we are seeing pressure to increase the age of retirement, and the age at which super can be accessed. If people who are retired can support themself, free up jobs, and continue to spend its a win for everyone.

The government has a vested interest in Australians becoming as wealthy as they can. That way, they can tax peoples' income (working or investment), they can tax people when they spend money, and they don't have to fork out for a pension and old age services.

I doubt negative gearing is going anywhere soon.
 
There's a campaign on getup to abolish negative gearing for anyone in the thread that feels this way :)

http://suggest.getup.org.au/forums/...x-cuts-for-wealthy-investment-prope?ref=title

I quite like the ideas proposed by Unconventional Economist (e.g. that it be for new housing only):

A better approach:

Australia's current system of negative gearing is a key factor behind the housing affordability problem in Australia. It has encouraged a flood of investors into the established housing market, it has not contributed to housing supply or rental availability or affordability, and it costs the Government billions of dollars of foregone tax revenue each year. Housing affordability will never be properly addressed in Australia until significant changes are made to negative gearing.

Negative gearing's cost to the Government and impact on house prices would be greatly reduced if, from a certain date in the future, it was retained on newly constructed dwellings but abolished where an investor purchases an existing ('second hand') dwelling. In this way, pre-existing investment property owners would not be disadvantaged and, over time, tax deductible interest would begin to fulfil its economic purpose of encouraging real investment - the production of new housing supply - as new investors enter the housing market. Such an approach, once understood, would likely be supported by the home building and property development industry because it promotes higher building levels. Further, the increased housing supply would be likely to increase the availability of rental properties and lower rents. Of course, those groups with a direct interest in long-term house price appreciation would strongly object to such an approach including, perhaps, many current Australian home owners who (wrongly) perceive that their wealth is increased when their home value rises.

Tax purists might also disagree with such a change to negative gearing on the basis that it is wrong to discriminate among financial assets. My response is that housing is an entirely different type of asset from other financial assets, like shares. Firstly, housing is a social asset and shelter is a basic human need. Second, those buying other financial assets are bidding against other investors that can also access interest deductibility. However, with housing, the main other bidders are owner-occupiers that do not have access to this advantage (interest deductibility). So we are not comparing 'apples with apples' with regards to housing versus other financial assets.
http://www.unconventionaleconomist.com/2010/06/negative-gearing-exposed.html
 
Last edited:
As far as I'm aware, there's nothing saying public housing must be newly built. I know of quite a few well-established properties that are owned by the Department of Housing.

If the market 'crashed', then surely the Dep of Housing could buy old places instead of building new.

they could, if their standards weren't so specific.

that's the issue - they're SO specific that they can't even renovate an older house to comply.
 
just back from nz - where they have abolished depreciation on ip's.

i was shocked at the rent charged versus the value of the property due to incentives being removed ... i feel removal of neg gearing would also force rents up in proportion to value - rental increases in such circumstances have just as much to do with emotional confidence as it does economics.

example i saw were - house for sale $210,000, rent for $350/wk. was tempted
 
just back from nz - where they have abolished depreciation on ip's.

i was shocked at the rent charged versus the value of the property due to incentives being removed ... i feel removal of neg gearing would also force rents up in proportion to value - rental increases in such circumstances have just as much to do with emotional confidence as it does economics.

example i saw were - house for sale $210,000, rent for $350/wk. was tempted

houses get built based on their cost v the price of other homes.

Any incentive to build new over buying existing will see more homes built. At present all the incentives are on buying existing not new. These incentives are often discussed here, length of time for development, costs blow out etc etc.

Any tax on the creation of new homes; GST and the like see less new homes built till the price of all homes rises to compensate for the new cost.

Allowing negative gearing on new homes only will not cause rents to rise quite the opposite. It will incentivise investors to build new homes as they predominantly did back in the day.

How does investors not wanting to buy existing houses cause rents to fall? As long as thier is incentive to build new homes rents will not rise indeed incentivise new home building too much or allow property prices to rise too much relative to new build costs and you get a USA style collapse.

All that said though I agree if negative gearing was scrapped totally I agree rents would likely rise over time.
 
I found a much simpler way of abolishing negative gearing.

Simply choose to invest in property assets that are positively geared. That way, no need to make a big song and dance about tax laws changing.

Simply buy something where your renters pay a decent amount of rent. Job sorted. :)
 
Allowing negative gearing on new homes only will not cause rents to rise quite the opposite. It will incentivise investors to build new homes as they predominantly did back in the day.

and how long would it then take for there to be a massive glut of new housing?

the reason new housing is unafforable/not being built is nothing to do with neg gearing - but rather the high 3 levels of government charges on a new build combined with the pathetic approval process.

remove those two barriers and supply would meet demand.

personally i agree with daz - buying neutral or positive are the way to go. any neg gearing due to depreciation etc is just icing.
 
and how long would it then take for there to be a massive glut of new housing?

the reason new housing is unafforable/not being built is nothing to do with neg gearing - but rather the high 3 levels of government charges on a new build combined with the pathetic approval process.

remove those two barriers and supply would meet demand.

personally i agree with daz - buying neutral or positive are the way to go. any neg gearing due to depreciation etc is just icing.

I agree absolutely it is not because of negative gearing. Negative gearing is likely the reason the government can get away with milking new development. It means a higher price is sustainable than would otherwise be the case without NG.

As you say without negative gearing at all it is unlikely that price would meet the threshold of new development for a long time.

This would indeed raise rents.

I also agree I reckon the government has to have a long hard look at itself especially in Sydney, where government costs are now as large as land procurement costs in that city for greenfield development.

Any advantage you give new development over buying existing will cause more new homes to be built. I agree such policy needs to be carefully managed or you do end up with a USA style situation of oversupply but I just wonder if the balance is right in this country? I don't suggest addressing neg gearing is the best means to the end it is one option. The best is clearly going to be streamlining the development process. I only know how hard it is to build a bridge and this the government is on your team! I'd hate to see them on the other side with our planning laws!
 
I found a much simpler way of abolishing negative gearing.

Simply choose to invest in property assets that are positively geared. That way, no need to make a big song and dance about tax laws changing.

Simply buy something where your renters pay a decent amount of rent. Job sorted. :)

What? Receive a suitable risk-adjusted return for capital? Bring the fairly logical investment rules applying to other asset classes to the resi property sector?

You, sir, clearly have not read my book, "The 9 Secrets of Property Investing : 2 More than Anyone Else!" or attended my comprehensive investment seminar "Please Buy My Book".

Get yourself edumacated!
 
What? Receive a suitable risk-adjusted return for capital? Bring the fairly logical investment rules applying to other asset classes to the resi property sector?

Indeed sir, it is a strange concept, but alas one that has long term merit.

Unfortunately, it involves the crucial step of conducting business with like minded business folk. This is where the whole salad bowl falls away with residential property.

The people you end up doing business with are primarily concerned with ;

  • skipping out and not paying anything when on semester breaks
  • not walking too far to hang out the washing
  • somewhere that feels safe
  • will accomodate their caravan and / or boat
  • a kitchen that their friends will be impressed with

Alas, the nett yield payable based on the worth of the asset doesn't rate a mention.

It basically boils down to completely unaligned goals between the two parties to the Leasing contract.
 
Back
Top