Accountant in Melbourne
- Thread starter Teshy
- Start date
Ok guys so there are 80+ views but no response so here is my update.
I rang two of the best property accountants (I think) in Melbourne and ask them questions around buying properties under Trust or Individual and their answers were surprisingly different.
Chan & Naylor
Recommends to buy first property in own name as the gearing benefits are the same as a hybrid trust. The difference being a trust will reduce exposure to risk if sued as an individual.
Buying as an individual versus a trust for your first property will save you the cost of setting up trust including a corporate trustee approx. $2000 + $1000 ($3000), annual ASIC fees for a company approx. $275 and also annual land tax fees. In VIC, the land tax threshold for individuals are $250,000 and for a trust is only $25,000. This means for land purchased for $250,000 as an individual means you pay no land tax, however purchased as a trust is $250,000 - $25,000 = $225,000 x 0.375 = $843.75.
So buying an individual can save you over $4,000 in the first year alone. By the way each of these expenses are tax deductible, however only 50% of the trust setup fees are deductible.
The charge for a tax return for a trust with one property is approx. $1,300.
C&N have a Property Investors Trust (PIT) which is essentially a hybrid trust where a specific tax product ruling has been granted by the ATO which allows gearing of the trust by only the individuals paying the interest payments. Distributing income to beneficiaries not paying interest is not possible.
It is recommended to setup negatively geared properties in C&N's PIT hybrid trust to gear and positively geared properties in a discretionary trust so income can be distributed to family members on a lower tax bracket. Investing in positively geared properties will provide you with addition income, but generally don't have as much capital growth potential as negatively geared properties, which provided limited or no short term income but held long term will give you great capital growth where the gains and wealth is.
C&N recommend not to have more than two properties in a trust as this limits the risk exposure to only the properties or other assets held by the given trust. For example, say a potential individual I.e. tenant sues your trust containing ten properties all ten of your properties are vulnerable, although if you spread this say over five trust only two of the properties would be exposed, obviously the one that the tenant is suing against. Just like the expression "don't put all your eggs in the one basket". Yes it does cost more, but you have to weigh up cost versus reducing your exposure to risk.
Also, if the bank gives you a home loan under your own name and can put the property under the trusts name that's good. However, if they decide not to do this, if you have PIT hybrid trust set up, C&N can rectify this for a one off fee of $595;
House of Wealth
Recommends a Unit Trust over a Hybrid Trust.
A Hybrid Trust essentially is a Discretionary Trust with the option to purchase units like a Unit Trust.
A Unit Trust has the added benefit of being able to transfer to your super fund and land tax threshold for various states.
They said it is a misconception around Hybrid Trust and a tax ruling exist that limits your ability to both gear and distribute income to beneficiaries. In other words, the portion that you distribute cannot be geared (the relevant interest payments may not be claimed.
In a unit trust, units may be transferred at any time. However, interest may only be claimed by those who have units and have borrowed to purchase them.
$2,600 to set up any type of trust with a corporate trustee inclusive of registration fees etc. and take approx. 1 week
Standard tax return $385 including one property plus $120 for each additional property
Trust with one property $620 plus $120 per additional property.
House of Wealth said their prices are very competitive and cheaper than other firms offering similar services, because they operate 'virtually' no offices / furniture hence less overheads.
1 hour of advice per year included free of charge, otherwise standard formal one hour consultations attract a rate of $275 an hour.
I rang two of the best property accountants (I think) in Melbourne and ask them questions around buying properties under Trust or Individual and their answers were surprisingly different.
Chan & Naylor
Recommends to buy first property in own name as the gearing benefits are the same as a hybrid trust. The difference being a trust will reduce exposure to risk if sued as an individual.
Buying as an individual versus a trust for your first property will save you the cost of setting up trust including a corporate trustee approx. $2000 + $1000 ($3000), annual ASIC fees for a company approx. $275 and also annual land tax fees. In VIC, the land tax threshold for individuals are $250,000 and for a trust is only $25,000. This means for land purchased for $250,000 as an individual means you pay no land tax, however purchased as a trust is $250,000 - $25,000 = $225,000 x 0.375 = $843.75.
So buying an individual can save you over $4,000 in the first year alone. By the way each of these expenses are tax deductible, however only 50% of the trust setup fees are deductible.
The charge for a tax return for a trust with one property is approx. $1,300.
C&N have a Property Investors Trust (PIT) which is essentially a hybrid trust where a specific tax product ruling has been granted by the ATO which allows gearing of the trust by only the individuals paying the interest payments. Distributing income to beneficiaries not paying interest is not possible.
It is recommended to setup negatively geared properties in C&N's PIT hybrid trust to gear and positively geared properties in a discretionary trust so income can be distributed to family members on a lower tax bracket. Investing in positively geared properties will provide you with addition income, but generally don't have as much capital growth potential as negatively geared properties, which provided limited or no short term income but held long term will give you great capital growth where the gains and wealth is.
C&N recommend not to have more than two properties in a trust as this limits the risk exposure to only the properties or other assets held by the given trust. For example, say a potential individual I.e. tenant sues your trust containing ten properties all ten of your properties are vulnerable, although if you spread this say over five trust only two of the properties would be exposed, obviously the one that the tenant is suing against. Just like the expression "don't put all your eggs in the one basket". Yes it does cost more, but you have to weigh up cost versus reducing your exposure to risk.
Also, if the bank gives you a home loan under your own name and can put the property under the trusts name that's good. However, if they decide not to do this, if you have PIT hybrid trust set up, C&N can rectify this for a one off fee of $595;
House of Wealth
Recommends a Unit Trust over a Hybrid Trust.
A Hybrid Trust essentially is a Discretionary Trust with the option to purchase units like a Unit Trust.
A Unit Trust has the added benefit of being able to transfer to your super fund and land tax threshold for various states.
They said it is a misconception around Hybrid Trust and a tax ruling exist that limits your ability to both gear and distribute income to beneficiaries. In other words, the portion that you distribute cannot be geared (the relevant interest payments may not be claimed.
In a unit trust, units may be transferred at any time. However, interest may only be claimed by those who have units and have borrowed to purchase them.
$2,600 to set up any type of trust with a corporate trustee inclusive of registration fees etc. and take approx. 1 week
Standard tax return $385 including one property plus $120 for each additional property
Trust with one property $620 plus $120 per additional property.
House of Wealth said their prices are very competitive and cheaper than other firms offering similar services, because they operate 'virtually' no offices / furniture hence less overheads.
1 hour of advice per year included free of charge, otherwise standard formal one hour consultations attract a rate of $275 an hour.
Thanks teshy appreciate the feedback.
Curious why c&n didnt mention
1. Ability to move units to an smsf at a later stage.
2. Ability to sell units between parties for lower stamp duty.
3. With a fixes unit trust with individuals obtaining the land tax threshold the same land tax savings as holding in your own name.
4. Ability to use the refinancing principle.
None of these are possible in the individual name.
Asset protection the same under both structures.
So for me a unit trust wins with greater flexibility.
Curious why c&n didnt mention
1. Ability to move units to an smsf at a later stage.
2. Ability to sell units between parties for lower stamp duty.
3. With a fixes unit trust with individuals obtaining the land tax threshold the same land tax savings as holding in your own name.
4. Ability to use the refinancing principle.
None of these are possible in the individual name.
Asset protection the same under both structures.
So for me a unit trust wins with greater flexibility.
C&N's trust has very restricted financing options. This can have a significant impact on your extended strategy.
And a key question is what LVR do you need
A PIT will make it tough over 80.
ta
rolf
A PIT will make it tough over 80.
ta
rolf
Thanks Mike
What're your thoughts on Hybrid Trust? Why Unit Trust better than Hybrid?
I wish i had the crystal ball but $350k now so if property doubles every 10 years than 1.4 million in 20 years but then again in 20 years medium home price could be million dollar atleast.
Hmmm so $350k house. Worked out how much you can save?
I'm planning to go at 90% of LVR
Isn't most of the Trusts have restricted financing options especially if I'm going at 90% of LVR?
No all other trusts are fine up to 90-95% LVR.
what specifically are you needing advice on ?
depending on what you are looking for, your average tax agent may be fine.
My suggestion might be to halt the chase on broker and accountants et al, and work out what you want and why, then seek the services of them folk.
Why ? I have found that most humans suffer from confused knowledge by seeking advice from many varied sources, all with different and valid idealogies, and in the end the best sales person "gets them", often ending up with something that doesnt suit them.
ta
rolf
ta
rolf
Thanks Rolf, I do know what I want and I definitely know average tax agent isn't someone I'm after.
