Any One Else Out There?

Why ?

H


What I do in to risk manage my margin loans is buy 10K of shares, if the price goes down 1K I sell.


I now take lots of small loses ( I have learn't the hard way too)


Regards
Sheryn

This is fine in a climate where you expect to see some serious upside... but other than a dead cat bounce, all that we've seen has been very short, sucker bull rallies in an obvious bear market.

I'm not saying we are not due a massive rally on the ASX... but your losing 10% of your capital each time you follow this 'stop loss' method... ouch.

I've been in Cash since Aug/Sept 2007 for Superannuation ...
IP's sold a few years ago...
PPoR paid off (except for nominal salary sacrificing component ).

I'll sit on my hands until obvious pain has been felt in the market(s)... ASX and Real Estate.

It seems we're only just warming up.

Liquidate, lick your wounds... enjoy your new found freedom... and wait patiently instead of rushing back into the fray.
 
Hi All,
I am wondering how many people have over-committed themselves and are now really feeling the bite?
We borrowed to buy mutual funds, then set up a margin loan against them. Double the income....double the pain...
It has now got to a point where we are feeling sick and not sleeping because there has been so much value gone out the window and the interest on the margin is capitalized, but the interest on the mutual fund is paid by us monthly. Add to that investment properties..... feeling pretty screwed!
I didn't think at the start we were that crazy, still here we are.
I wonder if we are the only ones in this boat? if you don't want to admit it in public, feel free to PM.
Thanks...
P.S. Ignore my signature quote.....

I think we all all feeling high stress levels at the moment. Without having full knowledge of your affairs (which i suggest you dont post on a public site) its hard to give advice.
My gut feeling would be to dispose some of the managed funds to signficantly reduce the LVR ratios against the margin loan. This one is the real killer as if the market continues to correct then you dont want to be in a position of margin call. At its worst if you cant finance the margin call they will dispose of your units in the managed fund. And any shortfall by suing you for the difference. This would put your properties at risk.

The managed funds funded through your property loan are safer so long as you can meet the repayments to the bank.

Just one word of further caution here, if your properties are negatively geared and you are relying on property revaluations to gain a future buffer which you can use to capitalise the future interest, be careful. The banks are really clamping down on this. You must make sure that you can service ALL loans without relying on capital appreciations.
 
Hi all,

This is from a post I made several years ago, and will probably explain why I am in cash and have been since we sold property in September and November last year...

The culmination of trading/investing disasters taught me to have an "uncle" point, a place where beyond that I was wrong. This by itself has helped in limiting losses in all those "you can't lose" situations. Even so I have managed to let my own rules be superceded by the thought that they are just shooting for my stops. Again this cost plenty.

The old axiom of cut your losses took a long, long time to sink in.

Les, How would I chose a stock. I can start here but not finish. it depends on the time scale I am trading. Currently I have no stocks, because we put our money into property, a joint decision in our household. The leverage from property has given us far greater gains than the unleveraged share gain would have given. ( As Seech stated I am not against leveraging up for an investment per se, but I have not had the time I would require to monitor the situation.) I have had some small stock plays in the last couple of years.
What I look for is value, with a strong relative strength. But even then I have noticed that it is the chart action that I follow most. Recently(last couple of years), I have been following the ideas Joseph Piotroski, as a way of defining the "value" side of the equasion.
Simple "donchian" 4 week break out is enough. Put on trade(part of) wait for upside (volatility breakout) and add more.
The stock also has to have a meaningfull place for a stoploss that is outside the bounds of a normal correction. ( whatever normal means)

A bit over a year ago I posted this in a thread, which also sums up my trading style...

"Because I'm a persistent bugger, I never gave up and eventually turned my trading around. What I have learned works best in virtually all markets is written about in most of the good investment books. It just took me a long time to realize it works!!

What works is this;

A/ Buy what is going up in price(not what you think will go up in price)
B/ Sell what is going down in price(not what you think will go down in price)
C/ Cut your losses short (if the price goes immediately against you get out of the position because you are wrong)
D/ Don't overtrade (ie size of a position and stoploss so wide as to cause pain to the overall portfolio).

As an obvious result of the above, you NEVER add to a losing position, you get out of losing positions as quickly as possible.
You only ever ADD to winning positions( and correspondingly raise stoplosses to prevent them from becoming losing positions).

Earlier on(I can't remember if it was this thread or another) I proposed a system that was along the following lines;
1/ Buy on a new 6 monthly high. Place stoploss 10% below buy in price.
2/ Add to position at a certain % rise. Raise stoploss to a break even level.(ie buy 100 shares at $1.00 add 50 at $1.20, raise stoploss to $1.07.) As price rises keep adding to positions and raise stoploss into profitable territory.

I hear complaints about buying things that have already risen by lots of people, but things going up in price usually do so for long periods of time.

I again ask all those who think they know better to read the book recommended by just about every successful trader ;

"Reminiscences of a Stock Operator" by Edwin Lefevre."

On Friday of last week, I noticed something that I have never seen before, that being that there were no new yearly highs in the new high/new low column.

As far as I can tell, you can't get less than zero new highs, which means to me that very soon we will get a divergence between overall market lows and new high/new lows.
For myself this means the time is ripe to start watching for 'good' companies for when they break to short term highs.

That is just my take on things, because I have done the research to satisfy myself.

bye
 
Me and my family have lost an embarrasing amount from shares from the top. No need to say how much though. Fortunately we sold enough in Nov 07 to elliminate any share debt. I honestly can't say a single company we own has dropped the dividend payment yet, but I suppose that will happen. At this stage we still have all the nice dividends coming in.

We are debt free, but purely just good luck. A once in a lifetime cropping season last year with bubble grain prices. Just so lucky.

Been buying shares. Will buy more.



Interesting times coming up.

Interesting to see you cashed up Bill? I take a lot of notice of your postings, especially now. I would like to know what see-change and Handyandy are doing.

See ya's.
 
May not be of any consolation to people and is floored logic but I manage about 15 people all in there 20's and all the ones who didnt think they could afford to get a house not so long ago now seem very optomistic.

Most of them are talking about how good the drop in interest rates is and what they can afford to buy now. Seems that not all the doom and gloom has filtered down to them yet
 
Have a read of what WB had to say

(reproduced from another post ...)

Buy American. I am.

By Warren E. Buffett

The financial world is a mess, both in the United States and abroad. Its problems, moreover, have been leaking into the general economy, and the leaks are now turning into a gusher. In the near term, unemployment will rise, business activity will falter and headlines will continue to be scary.

So ... I’ve been buying American stocks. This is my personal account I’m talking about, in which I previously owned nothing but United States government bonds. (This description leaves aside my Berkshire Hathaway holdings, which are all committed to philanthropy.) If prices keep looking attractive, my non-Berkshire net worth will soon be 100 percent in United States equities.

Why?

A simple rule dictates my buying: Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful. And most certainly, fear is now widespread, gripping even seasoned investors. To be sure, investors are right to be wary of highly leveraged entities or businesses in weak competitive positions. But fears regarding the long-term prosperity of the nation’s many sound companies make no sense. These businesses will indeed suffer earnings hiccups, as they always have. But most major companies will be setting new profit records 5, 10 and 20 years from now.

Let me be clear on one point: I can’t predict the short-term movements of the stock market. I haven’t the faintest idea as to whether stocks will be higher or lower a month — or a year — from now. What is likely, however, is that the market will move higher, perhaps substantially so, well before either sentiment or the economy turns up. So if you wait for the robins, spring will be over.

A little history here: During the Depression, the Dow hit its low, 41, on July 8, 1932. Economic conditions, though, kept deteriorating until Franklin D. Roosevelt took office in March 1933. By that time, the market had already advanced 30 percent. Or think back to the early days of World War II, when things were going badly for the United States in Europe and the Pacific. The market hit bottom in April 1942, well before Allied fortunes turned. Again, in the early 1980s, the time to buy stocks was when inflation raged and the economy was in the tank. In short, bad news is an investor’s best friend. It lets you buy a slice of America’s future at a marked-down price.

Over the long term, the stock market news will be good. In the 20th century, the United States endured two world wars and other traumatic and expensive military conflicts; the Depression; a dozen or so recessions and financial panics; oil shocks; a flu epidemic; and the resignation of a disgraced president. Yet the Dow rose from 66 to 11,497.

You might think it would have been impossible for an investor to lose money during a century marked by such an extraordinary gain. But some investors did. The hapless ones bought stocks only when they felt comfort in doing so and then proceeded to sell when the headlines made them queasy.

Today people who hold cash equivalents feel comfortable. They shouldn’t. They have opted for a terrible long-term asset, one that pays virtually nothing and is certain to depreciate in value. Indeed, the policies that government will follow in its efforts to alleviate the current crisis will probably prove inflationary and therefore accelerate declines in the real value of cash accounts.

Equities will almost certainly outperform cash over the next decade, probably by a substantial degree. Those investors who cling now to cash are betting they can efficiently time their move away from it later. In waiting for the comfort of good news, they are ignoring Wayne Gretzky’s advice: “I skate to where the puck is going to be, not to where it has been.”

I don’t like to opine on the stock market, and again I emphasize that I have no idea what the market will do in the short term. Nevertheless, I’ll follow the lead of a restaurant that opened in an empty bank building and then advertised: “Put your mouth where your money was.” Today my money and my mouth both say equities.
 
GeeVee,

So sorry to hear about your situation. You are not alone ....and there are a lot of people in Australia....and the world doing it tough. Take heart in that this will eventually blow over in a year or two. In the meantime don't panic and sit tight!

I was fortunate (yes I said fortunate) to have experienced the 1990's recession....and when I saw the market in turmoil in June 2007..I took some steps which have somewhat insulated me. The steps I took were:

1. Managed Funds - i sold 50% in July 2007 and then the remaining 50% in early Jan. 2008. I was still up by 80% as I had my money in this since 2004.

2. I made a decision in Oct. 2007 to sell one property (a tiny 39 sqm unit in Marrickville) to reduced my debt exposure from something like 45% LVR to 31% now. The sales was finalised in Feb. 2008 and I am happier for this even though I will owe the tax man alot this year.

3. The rents in properties have increased to the point, my property portfolio is giving me a lower mid level income. I will be reliant on this if my job situation changes.

4. I have recently entered the Share market and have been writing options to increase my income. Some people on this forum have been skeptical about this....but so far I am doing okay. My personal view there is more opportunities in select parts of the share market.

Whilst you need to do your down due diligence, perhaps you could consider the following:

1. Assess your personal situation....if you can ride it out and your job situation is secure...DO NOT sell anything in the current market.

2. Where possible increase rents.

3. Falling interest rates should give you relief in terms of negative gearing.

Wishing you the best in the future.:)

Regards,
Sash



Hi All,
I am wondering how many people have over-committed themselves and are now really feeling the bite?

I wonder if we are the only ones in this boat? if you don't want to admit it in public, feel free to PM.
 
Hi Gee Vee, my 2nd comment on your situation, if you're not already tired of words from strangers.

I'm going to focus on your 'trying again'. That I feel is going to be the basis of success.

I once cut loss at 60% loss. They went down further. When trading volume had ground down to almost non existent, I could buy back the exact same shares I sold for far less.

I had also once cut loss [around 30%] & they went UP. I bought back on intraday lows & they went up further!

I'm not recommending that you try to trade your way back. I don't believe in trading cos I don't have the temperament to do well at it.

I believe in steady accumulation. The little voice has been very active about shares but it is also saying that recession is nigh & therefore there's a lot of time to buy SLOWLY.

I'm going to buy selected shares in DIY super once the FD is due. I will save small steady amounts and continue buying. 2 year probably.

Purpose of this post is to share & to support. Investment is good - doesn't matter whether shares or property - far quicker way to wealth.

Don't give up shares. If my little voice is correct, you have the opportunity to watch & wait [& more imptly, put together some money either through saving or refinance] to buy in again @ a level lower than your sell out position.

Good luck,
KY
 
We don't have shares (unless you count "stuperannuation"; but I don't) - only property, so there is are no probs with vanishing equity or wealth so far.

The recent rent rises, plus interest rate drops (with more of each to come) and our perennial policy of debt reduction sees us in a nice place.

We are watching some shares closely at the moment for the right time to buy someone else' pain. Something "blue chip" (is there really such a thing?) to buy and hold with some nice fully-franked dividends I think.

As for mutual funds; read any of Rob Kiyosaki's books to get an idea of what he thinks of them, and the mentality of many share "investors".

He has a lovely analogy about the share market - the fox and the chickens. Quite funny unless you have recently taken a pounding.

Not saying he is the only voice on this subject, but he has half a clue I suspect.
 
Hi All,
Me back again to thank everyone for their kind words and advice. We have had one hell of a week...basically waiting for our managed funds to be sold. Then we can pay out the margin loan. Until then there isn't any point trying to work out how to claw back any ground. Once we know how much we have "evaporated" we can then work out how to move forward.
When we started our investing strategy we were fully into property. But along the way it was suggested at seminars, that shares/managed funds could help speed up the process. It all seems logical. No lazy money.
I think, though, at this point we dropped the ball. Tied up money that could have been another house basically. I have a cutting on my desk that has faded off about investing in houses. One every two years until you had five, then sit and wait. Gotta get the mind back to that. Invest...add value to the existing property, even pay some down if we want to put money somewhere while we wait for another opportunity.
Lets see what happens.
Cheers
 
About 2 months ago now I was holding one stock (my portfolio comprised one stock) which has a 45% lending rate (margin lender would lend 55%).

Current takeover bid on stock at $1.28/share for minimum 90% acceptances. I had bought at $1.10 sold for $1.41 and bought back in at $1.39. One shareholder held 15% of stock. Instead of that shareholder accepting the $1.28/share takeover bid they sold to another party for $1.17. All this announced before market opened.

Stock had closed the day before at $1.21 (suggesting there were some doubts as to whether the takeover bid would succeed). No stop losses in place (didn't think the price would fall so far) I had a client to see at 10.00am. Client arrived early. I started conference, mobile phone beeps for text message...in default on margin loan by 10%, beeps agin in default by 20% then email which I read whilst still in conference with client...a friend of mine had passed away..then mobile phone beeps again...text message in default by 40%...then another beep..text message...we have closed your position. I had exited the share at 80c...for an $18,000 loss. Sold the rest a few days later at 71c for another $10,000 loss.

Went to my friends funeral the next week.
 
About 2 months ago now I was holding one stock (my portfolio comprised one stock) which has a 45% lending rate (margin lender would lend 55%).

Current takeover bid on stock at $1.28/share for minimum 90% acceptances. I had bought at $1.10 sold for $1.41 and bought back in at $1.39. One shareholder held 15% of stock. Instead of that shareholder accepting the $1.28/share takeover bid they sold to another party for $1.17. All this announced before market opened.

Stock had closed the day before at $1.21 (suggesting there were some doubts as to whether the takeover bid would succeed). No stop losses in place (didn't think the price would fall so far) I had a client to see at 10.00am. Client arrived early. I started conference, mobile phone beeps for text message...in default on margin loan by 10%, beeps agin in default by 20% then email which I read whilst still in conference with client...a friend of mine had passed away..then mobile phone beeps again...text message in default by 40%...then another beep..text message...we have closed your position. I had exited the share at 80c...for an $18,000 loss. Sold the rest a few days later at 71c for another $10,000 loss.

Went to my friends funeral the next week.

And you call this an investment strategy?:confused:
 
About 2 months ago now I was holding one stock (my portfolio comprised one stock) which has a 45% lending rate (margin lender would lend 55%).

Current takeover bid on stock at $1.28/share for minimum 90% acceptances. I had bought at $1.10 sold for $1.41 and bought back in at $1.39. One shareholder held 15% of stock. Instead of that shareholder accepting the $1.28/share takeover bid they sold to another party for $1.17. All this announced before market opened.

Stock had closed the day before at $1.21 (suggesting there were some doubts as to whether the takeover bid would succeed). No stop losses in place (didn't think the price would fall so far) I had a client to see at 10.00am. Client arrived early. I started conference, mobile phone beeps for text message...in default on margin loan by 10%, beeps agin in default by 20% then email which I read whilst still in conference with client...a friend of mine had passed away..then mobile phone beeps again...text message in default by 40%...then another beep..text message...we have closed your position. I had exited the share at 80c...for an $18,000 loss. Sold the rest a few days later at 71c for another $10,000 loss.

Went to my friends funeral the next week.


**** man, i feel for ya.... have had a few bad trades like that myself, hence why i dont trade in this crazy market, il pick a bottom further down the track when i can scrape some $$ together and buy up for keeps..
 
Nathan, I've been preaching patience for ages. Maybe 18 months.

I spend many hours every weekend picking up on sentiment out of the US, much of it on netcasts. This arvo I took my laptop and listened while trying to revive some grass on a vacant IP and I'm willing to call a "selective" bottom (or near enough). My thoughts on where to be are well known and I think Sash is correct in her approach by trading in covered calls. Trouble with that is that too few Aus stocks have enough liquidity to be viable. You are stuck with the four banks, two big miners and Woodside and it is just as important to select stocks to write calls against as it is to hold as investments.

I've lost "a house" this year in the market so I'm not about to make any recommendations, except to advise property investors to expand their vision and diversify, and leave LPTs alone. (Hey! I'm not saying they are about to collapse further) But I've said that before. :D

I still recommend caution and using a staged entry. OK, I just can't resist. Go for "stuff" not paper promises to pay.
 
Talk about plans going astray:(.

My intent was to exit the market in a goodly fashion whilst the going was good. Well greed got in the way and I stayed to long (as always:eek:)

Back last year I was down 10% or thereabouts and didn't want to take the loss. The old 'It will recover', well it didn't or it actually did but I wasn't watching (in May)

The end result is that we have lost everything that we made in the market over the last 3 or so years. Still to work out the exact numbers, a little bit painful at the moment.

Although we had a margin loan and other equity loans we have come out square having only lost 'our' money.

We can continue to live of rents with our IP portfolio running at 10-15% lvr but I know I am going to miss my slush fund.:eek:

Cheers
 
Hi all

Well it certainly appears the stocks are causing the pain and not property at this stage.

I think many have been caught as stocks have plummeted in some cases 80% in a short time.

This is a serious crash and now if you can help yourself is not the time to sell at these low levels. However who knows when this will turn confidence has been dessimated in the stock market at this stage.

I guess we all wish we could buy in soon as some prices could not even have been considered just one year ago.

Cheers
BC
 
This is a serious crash and now if you can help yourself is not the time to sell at these low levels.

Only time will tell BC. There could be more pain ahead as hedge funds are wound and are forced into fire sales.

For the little it's worth Au & Ag will be the first to recover and that may be very soon. Beyond that, I'm more likely to sell than buy.
 
Hi

Thanks Sunfish i know what you mean i was suggesting in the context for those that bought at the top.

What is a measure i suppose is that the DOW has never fallen more than 50% from its high.

Cheers
BC
 
Hmmmmm.....Sunfish....I think I would make a very unattractive women...as I am a guy...:D:D

Just an update on covered calls.....I agree with Sunfish you need to have nerves of steel in this market. I was making about 4-5k a month on about 90-100k portfolio in covered calls (I am only doing the banks)....it does not look as good this month. I think I would be lucky to get 3k in premiums in covered calls...still not bad! ;)

I do agree with Sunfish...stick to the most liquid stocks...this means the top 20 stock in Australia with a focus in the 4 major banks, 2 major retailers, two miners, and agree with Woodside....asn perhaps QBE and Telstra at a stretch.

Cheers
Sash

My thoughts on where to be are well known and I think Sash is correct in her approach by trading in covered calls. Trouble with that is that too few Aus stocks have enough liquidity to be viable. You are stuck with the four banks, two big miners and Woodside and it is just as important to select stocks to write calls against as it is to hold as investments.
 
I spend many hours every weekend picking up on sentiment out of the US, much of it on netcasts. This arvo I took my laptop and listened while trying to revive some grass on a vacant IP and I'm willing to call a "selective" bottom (or near enough).

Sunfish

I was wondering whether it was any specific thing/s on those netcasts and other reports out of the US that has made you a little more optimistic in your outlook ... or just the general tenet of things?

Would be interested in your thoughts/comments.

Cheers
Lynn
 
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