Article - Neg gearing attacked for driving up property prices

I just got forwarded this article from a friend of mine (a lurker on these forums).

This looks like another socialist sensationalism move to appease the drongo masses. Won't work IMO.

One readers comments ring very true:
Sounds like the policy of a one term government


http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/money/story/0,26844,25182530-5015825,00.html


What do you think would happen if this were to actually occur?

My thoughts:
- rents would increase by a spastic amount
- economy would go to crap, as building would virtually cease
- govt would have to seriously spend massive $$$ on social housing projects, as many people would be priced out of rent
- govt makes earns less tax, and has to spend more money. Deficit will go out of control
 
Bring it on....I dare them......the rent rises would retire me once in for all!

If they think they have a housing shortage now....it would be even worse if NG was removed!

I personally don't think this will happen....it is being bandied about to sell papers.

I just got forwarded this article from a friend of mine (a lurker on these forums).

This looks like another socialist sensationalism move to appease the drongo masses. Won't work IMO.

One readers comments ring very true:
My thoughts:
- rents would increase by a spastic amount
- economy would go to crap, as building would virtually cease
- govt would have to seriously spend massive $$$ on social housing projects, as many people would be priced out of rent
- govt makes earns less tax, and has to spend more money. Deficit will go out of control
 
Given the small percentage of the population who invest in property, it is hard to imagine how anyone could possibly think that invetsors have much influence on property prices at all. Sure, maybe a small influence, but it is well documented that supply and demand of owner occupiers is the real driver behind property price inflation (as it's described in the article).
Could you find a better example of that than the boom in prices on properties that suit FHB? In the areas I monitor, I've seen properties that, pre FHOG Boost would have hit the market at $250k now being listed around $280k-$310k. I can also tell you that the investors I know are staying away from this frenzy in droves. So, it can't be them pushing the prices up, can it?
There are many arguments for and against the allowed tax benefits for negative gearing, but I don't think propery price inflation has anything much to do with them.
 
I just got forwarded this article from a friend of mine (a lurker on these forums).

This looks like another socialist sensationalism move to appease the drongo masses. Won't work IMO.

One readers comments ring very true:



http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/money/story/0,26844,25182530-5015825,00.html




What do you think would happen if this were to actually occur?

My thoughts:
- rents would increase by a spastic amount
- economy would go to crap, as building would virtually cease
- govt would have to seriously spend massive $$$ on social housing projects, as many people would be priced out of rent
- govt makes earns less tax, and has to spend more money. Deficit will go out of control

Maybe not directly but future Government taxes for the middle class will be rising. Mark my words.

I will explain this under a new topic.
 
What do you think would happen if this were to actually occur?

My thoughts:
- rents would increase by a spastic amount
- economy would go to crap, as building would virtually cease
- govt would have to seriously spend massive $$$ on social housing projects, as many people would be priced out of rent
- govt makes earns less tax, and has to spend more money. Deficit will go out of control

There was a similar article in AFR last Friday (print version, p 5) - with calls for negative gearing to be disallowed.

To put things in perspective, I did some back-of-the-envelope calculations using figures provided in the article:

Negative gearing shortfall in 2006/07 F/Y was $6.4B
Assuming a population of 21.5M, 30% of whom are renters gives 5.45M renters
This works out to a average 'subsidy' (to landlords) of less than $993 per year per tenant.

I have been doing these calculations every F/Y for about 5 years now and I have yet to find anyone who can explain to me - if NG was removed - how the Government can provide housing for all tenants in this country for less than $993 per tenant per year.

The Government can't!!! The only sector of the population who can provide housing for tenants at relatively low cost is the much-maligned property investor - and the Government knows - or should know - this!


Given the small percentage of the population who invest in property, it is hard to imagine how anyone could possibly think that invetsors have much influence on property prices at all. Sure, maybe a small influence, but it is well documented that supply and demand of owner occupiers is the real driver behind property price inflation (as it's described in the article).

You're right, Rob. Roughly 70% of home purchasers are OOs, around 20% are FHBs and the remaining 10% are investors, though these figures obviously fluctuate a little from time to time. So how can 10% of purchasers have such a huge effect on home prices? They obviously cannot.


Could you find a better example of that than the boom in prices on properties that suit FHB? In the areas I monitor, I've seen properties that, pre FHOG Boost would have hit the market at $250k now being listed around $280k-$310k. I can also tell you that the investors I know are staying away from this frenzy in droves. So, it can't be them pushing the prices up, can it?
There are many arguments for and against the allowed tax benefits for negative gearing, but I don't think propery price inflation has anything much to do with them.

Like you, I've observed the same sort of FHB frenzy here! One example: Daughter No #1 (who is looking for a PPOR) and I attended an OFI yesterday - a post-war chamferboard house which needed a good deal of work done before you could even occupy the place (termite damage, asbestos removal required, problems with damp ... I could go on and on). Asking price was 'Offers over $385K'. In their dreams!!! As we drove away, I asked her what she thought it was worth. Her reply was "$325K to $340K, depending on what Tony (our pest man) found ... but I'd start at $310K if I were interested." Exactly what I would have said, except that my first offer would have been $305K ... I've taught that girl well! :D

It is a great pity that there are not some well-informed submissions to the Henry inquiry. However, I suspect that this - like the other inquiries KRudd has initiated - is mere window-dressing, a case of being seen to be listening/doing something ..... and that the Government will do what they always intended to do, regardless. :rolleyes:

Cheers
Lynn
 
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Well said Lynn,

Your figures are really interesting.

The average Joe does not understand how NG and deductions work.

The debate on NG rolls on, and it will always rare it's ugly head in bad times to give Joe someone to blame for the reason he is so poor and the guy next door is so "rich."

I do not believe that even if KRudd get's a bill to Parliament that the Libs will EVER let it pass.

Back in 2003, Mark Latham also suggested NG should be examined but in the end both Labor and Liberal agreed it would be exceedingly unwise to touch it.

We will always have Paul Keating as an example of what happens when you mess around with NG.:cool:

Regards JO
 
Maybe not directly but future Government taxes for the middle class will be rising. Mark my words.

I will explain this under a new topic.

Yep, see it now...fast fwd...

Inflation, wage rises, cost of living increases, new tax brackets..and the vast majority will probably be the worse for wear :confused:
 
I wonder how much removing NG would cost the politicians?

This one gets rolled out every so often but never comes to anything. It was tried in the 80s and I think the government has been put off by the experience.
 
Paul Keating tried it and got rolled in very short order as Landlords en mass issued notices to vacate.

But then again, the Socialist State Governments have implemented their own Land Tax grab by stealth, to the point that if they were abolished, most rental properties would be POSITIVELY GEARED !!!

VIC Land Tax is taking up to 1/4 of gross rentals in some cases.

Cheers,

Rob
 
In fact - if Land Tax were a true "Wealth Tax", as proposed by Socialists, then surely it should be levied on unencumbered value ??

Cheers,

Rob
 
Serious question and lets avoid the " It will be bad for renters argument" as that will just lead me to point out the need for increased levels of public housing:

If removing NG would simply lead to an increase in rents, why would an investor care?

If NG has not been putting upward pressure on home prices, why would removing it matter?
 
It's all nonsense.
As tax rates diminuish neg gearing has less value.
In the 80's people were being taxed at 48%, and interest was >15% for relatively low earnings.
Of course they did everything possible to minimize their taxes, they were getting ripped off blind. Even though a lot of people were doing really silly things with a new scheme a week coming out for avoiding tax, whihc is why the govt felt they had to do something.
Now there are very few people that will benefit in the same way as then from neg gearing.

Any business is entitled to deduct expenses and depreciation from income.
That will never change.
And making a loss does'nt mean it's not a business.
 
Negative gearing shortfall in 2006/07 F/Y was $6.4B
Assuming a population of 21.5M, 30% of whom are renters gives 5.45M renters
This works out to a average 'subsidy' (to landlords) of less than $993 per year per tenant.

I have been doing these calculations every F/Y for about 5 years now and I have yet to find anyone who can explain to me - if NG was removed - how the Government can provide housing for all tenants in this country for less than $993 per tenant per year.

Lynn, what percentage of rental properties would actually be negatively geared? Half maybe? Even as low as a third? So if that's the case then you would need to adjust your cost/tennant figure upwards a fair bit wouldn't you as those Landlords with Positive property wouldn't be kicking their tennants out?
 
Lynn, what percentage of rental properties would actually be negatively geared? Half maybe? Even as low as a third? So if that's the case then you would need to adjust your cost/tennant figure upwards a fair bit wouldn't you as those Landlords with Positive property wouldn't be kicking their tennants out?


If this is indicative, then ~58%
 
Negative gearing shortfall in 2006/07 F/Y was $6.4B
Assuming a population of 21.5M, 30% of whom are renters gives 5.45M renters
This works out to a average 'subsidy' (to landlords) of less than $993 per year per tenant.


Gools

I've highlighted part of my post above. Obviously those LLs whose IPs are CF+ would be getting no 'subsidy' and those LLs whose IPs are heavily negatively geared would be getting a 'subsidy' which is substantially greater.

I felt that a figure of $X per tenant per year provided a fairly clear and simple way of looking at the overall cost to the Government (read taxpayers) of NG.

Hope this makes sense. I've just driven to the airport and back twice within the last hour-and-a-half or so, and my brain is frazzled! :eek:

Cheers
Lynn
 
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My only complaint is the government encouraged the population to invest for there own future and neg gearing was one of many tools to help people. To whip it out from under so many people is not right unless investors are compensated in other ways. Im not getting involved in the wrong or right aspects of it.The fact is many people entered into long term property repayments knowing they had neg gearing to help. removing it is not right.

If people that are neg gearing already are allowed to continue until sale. Maybe.

Only allowing neg gearing on new properties. Maybe

A blanket removal is not acceptable in my eyes.
 
I've got a socialist mate who likes to share his views with me every now and then.

Funny thing is he's not that keen on moving to Cuba, nor living in the commission high rise flats...
 
What do you think would happen if this were to actually occur?

My thoughts:
- rents would increase by a spastic amount
- economy would go to crap, as building would virtually cease
- govt would have to seriously spend massive $$$ on social housing projects, as many people would be priced out of rent
- govt makes earns less tax, and has to spend more money. Deficit will go out of control

And rent assistance would jump from the current 100 bucks a f/night to at least 100 bucks a week. I do hope they would cut NG since that would cut down the number of investors. The last time they tried this it cause a rental shortage and both the rents and existing property prices to go up heaps.
 
My only complaint is the government encouraged the population to invest for there own future and neg gearing was one of many tools to help people. To whip it out from under so many people is not right unless investors are compensated in other ways. Im not getting involved in the wrong or right aspects of it.The fact is many people entered into long term property repayments knowing they had neg gearing to help. removing it is not right.

If people that are neg gearing already are allowed to continue until sale. Maybe.

Only allowing neg gearing on new properties. Maybe

A blanket removal is not acceptable in my eyes.


Agree restrospectivity applied suddenly would be unacceptable, but pulling for new purchases of existing stock (at least) wouldn't disadvantage investors.
 
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