Australia vs the USA

The Australian equivalent of the US sub-prime makes up less than 5% of the Australian market whilst in the US I believe it's over 20% of the market place.
Figures I have been quoted are 15% in the US, < 1% in Australia.

There are two major differences from a lenders point of view between business in US & Australia:

a. The majority of Australian home loans make a loss for the lender. 80% of mortgage debt sold by major banks is a loss leading exercise, to leverage cross selling opportunities with insurance, credit cards, etc. It establishes highly profitable clients with a relationship with the bank. Fixed rate loans are almost all loss leaders, as they are harder to break and average loan terms are greater.
Even profitable loans take almost 2 years before breakeven & profitability.

b. Australia does not have ARMs or 50 year loan terms (I belive some small lenders have introduced a 40 year loan term, however this is a tiny portion of the market).

The major impact of the sub-prime crisis in the US will be indirect - via funding difficulties forcing some lenders to raise rates (and in at least one lender's case already, capping max LVR limits at 95% inclusive of MI charges).
Even prime loans are becoming more costly, as the securitisation methods employed by lenders in the US are non-discriminatory: the bond ratings are linked to order of default, not credit quality.
 
This is what Bush said a few years ago, and the USA media was also full of stories about a "shortage"



http://housingdoom.com/2007/09/06/what-was-the-administration-thinking/?ref=patrick.net

But what actually happened?

US:
2001 US population: 285,226,284
2006 US population: 299,398,484

2001 US dwellings: 117,858,349
2006 US dwellings: 126,316,181

Population growth 01-06 : 4.97%
Dwelling growth 01-06 : 7.18%

US Overbuilding 01-06 : 44%

population: http://www.census.gov/popest/states/NST-ann-est.html
dwellings: http://www.census.gov/popest/housing/HU-EST2006.html

So what about Australia?

From the census, 2001 - 2006 Australia increased:

Population: 5.78%
Houses: 8.17%

Overbuilding: 41%

BUT IT'S DIFFERENT HERE!!!!


I was actually wondering the same thing.

Its even better when you look at example such as Hobart where median has increased by 185% and population has increased by 5% since 1997. These types of scenarios, which make mockery of fundamentals, make me think twice and thrice.
 
Actually, Hobart is the only capital city where population growth/2.6 has exceeded (by 4%) new houses.

8% of dwellings there are still empty, though. Can't be that bad :)
 
a. The majority of Australian home loans make a loss for the lender.

??? No wonder Aussie John Symond decided to start offering credit cards. His whole business model was skewed towards losses until he had something to cross-sell...

Nor is it surprising that RAMS share price tanked.

I wonder what it was that maintained their loss making business for so long...
 
a. The majority of Australian home loans make a loss for the lender. 80% of mortgage debt sold by major banks is a loss leading exercise, to leverage cross selling opportunities with insurance, credit cards, etc. It establishes highly profitable clients with a relationship with the bank. Fixed rate loans are almost all loss leaders, as they are harder to break and average loan terms are greater.
Even profitable loans take almost 2 years before breakeven & profitability.

I find this hard to believe, but I don't have any info for it. While I know margins for loans have been decreasing, and for example they require a credit card to be included in many loan applications, it seems unbelievable that home loans are actually not profitable for banks. Why would fixed rate loans be a particular issue when they can just finance it with fixed rate bonds?

b. Australia does not have ARMs or 50 year loan terms (I belive some small lenders have introduced a 40 year loan term, however this is a tiny portion of the market).

Not exactly correct. An ARM is just your stock standard variable rate loan. Even that used to be an oddity in the US because they are used to 30 year fixed rate loans. What we don't have in Oz are those exploding ARMs (ones with very low initial payments, and then resetting to very high payments). While we have come loans with low initial honeymoon rates, afterward they just reset to the standard variable rate. In the case of US exploding ARMs, they are reset to a number of % points above the Fed rate of LIBOR, potentially making them 10+%.
Alex
 
hi all
the lender makes the money the same as a car dealer does on a new vehicle and thats in the fees and charges and the running of the loan
so yes you don't make the money on the loan and thats why you have seen alot of banks having exit charges if you refinance within say 2 years as they have not made the money in the fees and charges for a nab or westpac to make money out of 1 or 2 percent above the bank bill rate and keep on going would be near impossible.
but the management and now cards
is were the money is.
to see this
get a hold of a prospectus of any of the majors and have a read.
 
Differences between AUS and US

US - Have subprime loans that were promoted heavily
AUS - Have lo/no doc loans but are not promoted heavily

US - Offer very low honeymoon rates on subprime mortgages
AUS - Dont offer honeymoon rates on nodoc loans (that I'm aware of)

US - Has seen massive rises in interest rates over the past 2-3 years
AUS - Only small rises in interest rates by comparison

AUS also has mortgate insurance, which the US does not have, so the banks have built in protection.
 
make money out of 1 or 2 percent above the bank bill rate and keep on going would be near impossible.

A 2 percent spread is about the historical norm, add in fractional reserve banking for a "free" multiplier for the banks and today's massive loans and lo and behold, banks are making money. A lot of money...

Can you provide some kind of evidence that banks don't make money on loans?
 
AUS also has mortgate insurance, which the US does not have, so the banks have built in protection.

Not true. Any first mortgage over 80% requires mortgage insurance in the US. What people do to get around it is to get a second mortgage in the form of HELOC at a higher variable rate - so in effect the second mortgagee is bearing the risk but getting paid a higher rate for that.

The other difference I can think of is that here in the US you can pay "points" (ie up front cost) to get a lower rate. From what I can remember that's not available in Aus?
 
Another thing is that Americans can "hand in the keys" and walk away while Australians are still liable for any negative equity.

BTW subprime loans are not the cause of the credit crunch, they are just the first ones exposed by it because refinancing options have disappeared.

Credit/refinancing is still reasonably easy to obtain in Australia and many people are living off credit cards (and 0% balance transferring them) so are still able to meet their mortgage obligations.

I think those 2 reasons, subprime exposing a lot of people at once + ability to walk away leading to cascading foreclosures caused the USA to turn very quickly, while Australia will probably take a lot longer to turn - but we're going to go the same way in the end.
 
Credit/refinancing is still reasonably easy to obtain in Australia and many people are living off credit cards (and 0% balance transferring them) so are still able to meet their mortgage obligations.

yeah, I read about it somewhere, can't remember where, that more and more people are using credit cards to pay of their mortgage! Basically they raise their interest to ~22% instead of ~7%. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read it.
 
yeah, I read about it somewhere, can't remember where, that more and more people are using credit cards to pay of their mortgage! Basically they raise their interest to ~22% instead of ~7%. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read it.

I think they are paying their living costs on cards and their wages into the mortgage (and praying to win the lottery) at least it keeps the mortgage arrears numbers down!

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200709/r185775_691647.asx

KATHY SWAN: There's also a looming iceberg in credit card debt, which on Reserve Bank figures released this week now stands at more than $40 billion.

BRIAN JOHNSON: If the average household has three months disposable income on their credit card and 70 per cent of households probably pay their credit cards down in full every month, that means a terrifying amount of debt that probably 30 per cent of households actually have.

KATHY SWAN: The rising cost of credit may put the brakes on spending,, saving the Reserve Bank the need to increase rates again in the short-term but the concern is mortgagees in stress are using multiple credit cards just to stay afloat, according to a study by JPMorgan and Fujitsu.

BRIAN JOHNSON: And at the moment the individual lenders don't know it because that person has probably got six or seven credit cards, is zero balance transferring their way out of a problem, but the hole is getting bigger and bigger.

KATHY SWAN: There'll be a rush for the life boats if paying more for credit sinks those delicately balanced households, and they may take house prices down with them.
 
hi tubs and hired goon
Differences between AUS and US

US - Have subprime loans that were promoted heavily
AUS - Have lo/no doc loans but are not promoted heavily

US - Offer very low honeymoon rates on subprime mortgages
AUS - Dont offer honeymoon rates on nodoc loans (that I'm aware of)

US - Has seen massive rises in interest rates over the past 2-3 years
AUS - Only small rises in interest rates by comparison

AUS also has mortgate insurance, which the US does not have, so the banks have built in protection.
first lodoc and no doc are not promoted heavi here well not sure if thats the case and areused by more investors then standard full doc loans as you will run out of serviceability if you did full docs every loan
.
and if you were in places like liverpool, st marys of this world lo doc even no doc I think would be seen as the norm.
second we do have reverse mortgages and very similar product to the arm loan here and I think from memory it has been promoted or mention for two groups that come to this board and a low interest rate with a ratchet was even recommended as a good loan for investors as the rate started at 3.5% and went up each year.
interest rates are not governed by a lender but by the reserve of the country.
and hired goon
I can't supply you the evidence as I am not working within a bank but a few here that do probably can
ther idea of a lender is to get you as a client and then make money on the long haul not the short term thats why thaey hated the rams of this word as it has been driving down and small returns on loans that they had been making the money has been in the on going fees hense you will see alot of mortgage managers spring up currently instead of mortgage brokers.
they are for all intense and purpose a little bank with out the cost of the real estate and the loans are wholesaled but thats not for this thread.
my .002
 
I think they are paying their living costs on cards and their wages into the mortgage (and praying to win the lottery) at least it keeps the mortgage arrears numbers down!

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200709/r185775_691647.asx

Heres something that would scew your numbers HG, making it APPEAR that people are living on credit

I know I have read of people who use a strategy where they

: Put ALL of their income into the housing loan

: Buy and pay for everything (except house loan) on credit card

: Use offset facility to pay credit card back BEFORE the interest free period ends





http://www.financiallyfree.com.au/m...hod 2 - Use a Home Equity Loan/Line of Credit

eg: Heath and Melissa are humble battlers.



They both work and have a combined weekly after-tax take home pay of $770 (or $3337 p/mth).

They have a $150K mortgage at 6.7% which they have taken out over 25 years.

Their mortgage payment is $1032 p/mth, and they share a car so they get by on $400 p/week (or $1734 p/mth) to cover all their living expenses.

They restructure their accounts in the following manner:

Instead of having all their income go into a separate savings account, they open a no minimum amount, low/no fee 100% Offset account which they link to their home loan and organise for both their pay-cheques to go into the Offset account. Some providers require that you have a minimum balance of $2000 or so before they apply the Offset so beware and shop around (see: Conclusion).

They also apply for a no fee credit card with a $2000 limit (enough to cover their $1734 p/mth living expenses), a minimum 30 day interest free period, and organise with their finance provider to automatically payout the monthly balance of the card from the funds in their offset account at the end of the interest free period. This is known as a "sweep" feature - it'll avoid you ever having to pay interest on the card balance as you won't need to remember to pay the card out at the due date every month.

They then make most of their monthly purchases using the card instead of using cash.


By structuring their finances this way, they will be having their full combined net salaries of $3337 per month sitting in their offset account for the month until the credit card balance is paid out. This will be effectively reducing the balance of their home loan, upon which interest is calculated daily, by $3337 for the month.


So what difference does this then make over time? Well, assuming they set and monitor their budget so that they don't spend more than their $400 p/week allocated for living expenses, and assuming they pay all their bills via their credit card, the result will be that they will completely pay out their mortgage in 11yrs and 1mth (not 25 yrs), and will save nearly $100,000 in interest in the process.


Let's look at the stats:


Traditional P&I Loan VS P & I Loan with Offset Account

Time To Repay Mortgage
25 years VS 11yrs 1mth

Total Interest Payments to the Bank
$159,547 VS $63,006

Total Principal Payments Made
$150,000 VS $74,250

Offset Account Balance
Not Applic. VS $75,943*

Total Repayments Made
$309,547 VS $137,256 + $75,750 (Offset a/c bal.) = Total $213,006

Time Saved
Nil VS 13yrs 9mths

Interest Saved
Nil VS $96,541


* Note: The $75,943 which has accrued in their offset account over 11yrs and 1mth time is calculated by multiplying $571 x 133mths (11yrs 1mth). They are paying their combined salaries of $3337 into this account monthly, and deducting $1032 for their mortgage payment, and $1734 for their monthly living expenses.

$3337 - ($1032+$1734) = $571 p/mth left to accrue in the offset account.

If you don't like credit cards and choose not to use one, that's fine - it'll just take a bit longer to amortise your loan. In the example provided, Heath and Melissa will still be miles ahead by using a 100% Offset account, even if they have to dip into their account during the month to cover expenses.


You should close all your other non-essential savings accounts and use the 100% Offset account to hold all your cash and to conduct all your transactions. You'll save on fees by not having multiple accounts, and the maximum balance possible will be working in your favour against the mortgage. Finally, make sure it is a TRUE 100% Offset and not one that pays a lower rate of interest to your mortgage - see the article The Different Types of Home Loans for more detail on this.



Dave
 
Heres something that would scew your numbers HG, making it APPEAR that people are living on credit

I know I have read of people who use a strategy where they

: Put ALL of their income into the housing loan

: Buy and pay for everything (except house loan) on credit card

: Use offset facility to pay credit card back BEFORE the interest free period ends

What's a fair figure for a percentage of TAKE HOME income on housing costs? 40%? The rest is cost of living. We'll ignore that Australians spend $105 for every $100 earned.

The average person has 3 months income (we'll assume take-home) on their credit cards => this is 5 months of non-housing cost of living on their credit cards.

Can you get 5 months interest free periods?

Maybe that idea accounts for some, but not all. They are also part of the estimated 70% who pay it off in full that they mentioned.
 
I know I have read of people who use a strategy where they

: Put ALL of their income into the housing loan

: Buy and pay for everything (except house loan) on credit card

: Use offset facility to pay credit card back BEFORE the interest free period ends

this is exactly what we are doing with out PPOR.
 
What's a fair figure for a percentage of TAKE HOME income on housing costs? 40%? The rest is cost of living. We'll ignore that Australians spend $105 for every $100 earned.

The average person has 3 months income (we'll assume take-home) on their credit cards => this is 5 months of non-housing cost of living on their credit cards.

Can you get 5 months interest free periods?

Maybe that idea accounts for some, but not all. They are also part of the estimated 70% who pay it off in full that they mentioned.


Working on the assumption that people need 5 mth interest free

If you are gainfully employed and using the above strategy why would you need 5 mths?

If due to job loss, would you need 5 mths?

Sure, there will be a few that get burnt, but there always are.

Dave
 
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