Be careful of [deleted], they are sharks. Please help

V

vluu28

[Admin note: this thread had been edited to remove references to an Australian company associated with Henry Kaye, which no longer operates. This has been done to avoid future confusion with other similarly named but unrelated companies.]

Hi all,

I just need to some advise on what has happened to me in the past 24 hrs regarding a [company associated with Henry Kaye]. They source properies for you and try to get your business after you have attended Henrys Kayes 15 Investment Seminar.

I too did the HK course about 1 year and 3 months ago. After completing I also signed up for the [company associated with Henry Kaye]. (Yes I was naive and stupid). Cant change it now.

The fee is initially $3850 to register with them. That will just put u onto a waiting list of people before you can buy your property. Once you name has been selected you can choose a property of their list and if you buy 1 you need to pay an additional $6600 to them.

They promise that their properties double in value every 3-4 years.

Ok fine. I signed up. Paid an initiall deposit of a $600. After 3 months i became wiser and decided to cancel my registration. So i went to the consultant and said "Please cancel my subscription".

He said thats fine BUT I LOOSE my $600 if I cancel.

I decided they can have my $600 for payment of wasting their time. The end right.

5-6 Months later I get a call again from [company associated with Henry Kaye] saying "We know you cancelled, but how about you setup a joint venture with someone to pay us the remaining $3250 registration fee. I declined, was bit surprised that they still call me after I cancelled and said "No thank you, Not interested with [company associated with Henry Kaye], please cancel my account". Again the consultant said thats fine but we keep your $600.

I'm thinking "Oh my god yes you can keep my $600. Just cancel my registration and leave me alone.

Another 5-6 months past I get a call from [company associated with Henry Kaye] again. This time a new consultant says "We have a special going on this month, although your account is cancelled, we can put u onto the registration list for $1000". AGAIN i said, no thank you as I have already cancelled my account and dont want anythign to do with you. He sounded a bit upset but fine not my problem. NO means NO. For crying out loud.

Now comes the whamy. About 3 months later yesteday Friday the 25th of JULY, I get a letter from [company associated with Henry Kaye] stating:

"NOTICE OF INTENTION TO SUE,
Take notice: unless the above amount ($3250) is paid within 7 days from this date, legal proceedings will commence against you without further notice. In doing so all associated costs will and interest will be added to you.

We further advices if you dont pay we will forward your details for a default to BayCorp."

Please contact this no XXXXX to arrange further finance"

WHAT THE %#%$#%%# hell.

AFTER CANCELLING MY ACCOUNT OVER 1 YEAR AGO AND KEEPING MY DEPOSIT THEY WANT TO SUE ME NOW.

PLEASE HELP WHAT CAN I DO. I HAVE A FEELING THEY WILL HAVE SOME SORT OF AMNESIA AND TELL ME "WE dont remember u telling us canceeling your account"

But I havent heared from them for over a year. No notice of an overdue account. No notice of money outstanding. Only 2 phone calls trying to sell me back my registration and thats it.

Please can anyone tell me where I can go to complain. Like is there a Fair Trading organisation apart from ASIC or anyone or anything I can call for help.
 
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Dear vluu28

http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/

You can lodge the first information regarding your concerns over the website, or print it out and fax it in.

Don't delay, and get as much information together as you can. Programs, receipts, diary dates, etc

Try and not worry. Consumer Affairs are pretty good at sorting things out.

Good luck

Kristine
 
vluu28 ,

Did you actually read what does the contract says before you sign?
i doubt it in this case

If there is clause in there that says that you got to pay there is nothing that you can do about it.

If you did the course already what results have you got?
Can you source property yourself like what [company associated with Henry Kaye] is doing?

Have you still got a copy of the contract that you sign, i doubt it that you still keep it.

If you cancelled your need to get a letter of confirmation that you have cancelled but in this case you must be too busy doing your own stuff and couldn't care less after you cancelled

Sometimes i feel a bit sad for the company cos those people just sign anything and did not read what they sign and in the end when the company sue the person who sign and the company ended up in Consumer Affairs or ACA or today tonight
What a joke!!!

Read before your sign next time or else when the S_H_I_T hits the fence don't come blaming someone else

Just like after you bid at the auction for a property
you are the winner at the auction
and decided to put a deposit on it there and then
in the end you want to back out of it
cos you think that you are too native or stupid
or for whatever the reason
you will be sue for your actions

This will be a learning experience for you to remember for years to come

"Read before signing".

Regards
Jerry
 
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Jerry,

First of all, auctions are different. Why would you bid in the first place when you know you dont want to buy.

2ndly. I told them very clearly "I WANT TO CANCEL MY SUBSCRIPTION". They said fine but we need to keep the deposit which i think is fair since i cancelled before obtaining their services.

Its like buying a car. U see the car, u like it, u put down a holding deposit but change ur mind before the actuall sell. The seller KEEPS THE DEPOSIT. Standard Contract.

Yes ur right. I LEARNED A BIG LESSON. Read the contract first before u sign. But have u ever been to [company associated with Henry Kaye]. Their sells tactics are so pushy that u cant even read the contract. Just sign here.

If i had an amount outstanding why didnt they SEND out reminders. Instead of calling up and trying to RESELL me their subscription.

If someone owed me $3250 I would be reminding them every day untill something has been worked out and not wait 12 months and then out of the blue send me an "Intention to sue letter".

Regards
 
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again they will say fine but did you get it in writing and did you note the day and time and who you spoke to...
 
Hmmmm

CAsh flow must be getting tight for them.

Yeah the sales systems these places use are pretty good arent they.

Jerry bit tough here matey, I dont disagree with the concept that if you agree to a contract then you are bound by it.

Regardless of the promises made by the providers (which is a whole other novel) VL has a point in the way that the debt collection has been approached by the provider. Actions speak louder than words.


Ta

rolf
 
vluu28 I would be getting legal advice and a copy of your contract !

I really feel sorry for you and not the company, who appear to me, to take advantage of the deficiencies of trusting human nature.

I went to one of their seminars that was supposed to be free and it was by the look of it. However before they began they requested everyone sign a non disclosure agreement within the space of about 3 minutes. Just trying to understand the legal language was a challenge in itself. It was a real pressure situation in which every other poor sole signed the contract and I bet not one of them understand the full implications of the legal language.

Suffice to say, I had reservations as I did not understand the implications of this agreement and thus did not sign and thus was not able to be present at the into seminar. And it smelt like a dirty low life rat !

Funny as I was leaving the room, I heard the presenter say quite rudely, there is one of the 95% of the population who won't own an investment property. This remark which I overheard combined with the uncertain wording of this non disclosure agreement, was enough to make it clear in my mind that this group was less than honorable, and in my mind a damn con job !

Jeez I'm glad I did not sign that thing ! I feel for those that did, i.e every other poor sucker in the room. About 10 of them.

This group has it down pat. They get em in the room put the contract on the desk, prepare to begin the seminar within 3 minutes and you can't stay unless you sign. They start the seminar before they collect all the contracts so that people get captured by he opening lines and thus then feel the need to sign for fear they will miss out on this secret stuff, they pretend they have exclusive knowledge of, that will somehow give you the edge over others.

They even had the hide to phone me up and ask me why I left. I explained why and then they tried to offer me a free personal consultation. I declined.

I guess the lesson is;

1) never sign anything you don't understand unless you are signing something that your own solicitor has tried to explain and approved for signing in representation of your best interest. I say this because the reality is that we do sign many things that we don't fully understand. But when it involves the potential transfer of money, always be extra careful.

2) Stay clear of any group that tries to put you on a guilt trip or make you feel inadequate in any way. These are the low down tactics they use to make you feel you need their help to survive.

3) really you dont need them, anyone can do it on their own by reading and researching and asking questions on online forums and via property investment information web sites etc... ask widely from many sources, speaking to independant accountants and conveyencors etc... Read books etc.. Allow yourself 3 to 6 months to educate yourself about property investment, before acting and even then seek others independent opinions.


By the way, at the end of all this, I did my own research on the net, and now own 2 investment properties ( so go shove it up that property group ) , both tenanted and in total costing me less than $80 per week after tax effects. I bought in high capital growth areas where if the market hold true to estimates I can expect good CG of around 10% for a few years. At present my $500K of properties, is capitalising around $1000 per week in growth. I'm happy.

I say forget these silly blood sucking scoundrel low life groups all together. Do it on your own. You can do it !

That said there a a few groups that dont behave in this way and if you research about them carfeully and get wide and varied opinion, you may find one that suits your needs. But as I said, you can do it without them !

Go to it ! Have faith in yourself. Give credence to your gut feeling. Get balanced views about your pending property decision and go kick some property group ass ! Suck their blood for knowledge and then use it for your own gain ! not theirs.

And never, never, never sign a damn thing with them !
 
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hwd007,

This is criminal practice (and if it isn't illegal it should be - entrapment!!!)

I'd like to see an undercover journo or cop go into one of these seminars - it'd blow the whole scam sky high.

Would you consider forwarding your exerience to someone such as the fraud squad or a good and reputable (ie: not ACA or TodayTonight) media person?

vluu28,

Seek legal advice right now. Give a good solicitor a copy of your contract, the demand & a history of your correspondence with the organisation. Discuss the situation with them...

If necessary, be prepared to bring the media into it - these groups HATE negative publicity, it gets the ATO, Fair Trading & police interested in them...

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
I thank you all for your replys. I certainly will keep u all posted. Cant do anything till monday. Been heavily stressed about this.

The worse thing i fear is they might put a record on my CRA just to **** me off if i take action which could be a major pain to remove i heard.

Worse thing tho is if they do my cra will be tarnished for no reason and it could make my investment future quite bleak. I have a clean record and something like this is just really heartbreaking.

Heartbreaking to the point that there are people out there that really have no remorse or compassion for other people and just care about how to exploit or take advantage of people to make a quick bug.

Can anyone advise of any other bad dealings they had through [company associated with Henry Kaye]. ie Refunds or course cancellation.
 
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vluu28,

It's not that hard to remove stuff from your CRAA if you can prove it shouldn't be on there.

However I'd suggest you request a copy of your CRAA now (free) so you know what state it is in right now (they may have added a default months ago...)

Good luck resolving this - keep us posted :)

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
HI Vluu28,

Relax mate! I think you have a strong case, and you really should not worry about this.

If I remember correctly there is a case a bit similar to yours, where the person who signed the contract did NOT know the full implications of the contract they signed and therefore WERE NOT held accountable. (Maybe some lawyer will know which case I am talking about.)

A contract is a legally binding document between two entities if both etities are absolutely clear about what the agreemment is.

If you say that you signed because they put pressure on you the contract is void!

I am not a lawyer , and I recommend you go and see one, and perhaps get your lawyer to write them a letter...

I think they are just using another technic to get money out of you.

Nom
 
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Asic is now looking at the pond scum who run dodgy
real estate seminars - there is a feature in this weekend's
Financial Review,

Best of luck Vlu, (btw you have no need to feel foolish-but you have every right to feel outraged) I hope you get justice,


Best,
 
The Consumer Credit Legal Service in Melbourne (number in the phone book) may be able to give you free advice and perhaps write them a nasty letter or two.

Good luck

Gail
 
Hi Vluu28,

As has been discussed these people / organisations prey on peoples trust. They do their best to put you in a situation that would make you feel very uncomfortable in doing what you should. IE - reading the contract completely. They don't say, "Here take this home with you and read it and show it to your own solicitor". They hand a document to you that would take ages to read and comprehend (if we even have the knowledge to make this judgement depending on the field the document relates to) and then pressure you to sign it immediately. It's a tactic. I work in criminal investigation and I see it all the time. One of the first signs that something is wrong is the pressure sell. If it must be done now or not at all, or it must be done now or you don't qualify for the "subtantial discount" then there is something wrong. They are more often than not at the very least ripping you off price wise or with some hidden charges etc. If it's not out right criminal. IF THE DEAL REALLY WAS THAT GOOD THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO PRESSURE PEOPLE INTO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

You've already been given the standard advice to seek legal assistance which is of course sensible, and you've been told to speak to Fair Trading or the equivalent organisation in your area. Definately complain to Fair Trading in writing. Even if they chicken out and you don't have any more problems. Complain to Fair Trading and any regulatory body you can identify that might be connected to them (the organisation who you are in dispute with). Do they claim to be members of a "something arather Association"?

Another tip, once you've checked it out legally and if they definately have no legal grounds to claim against you. So your satisfied they're just rip off merchants with no legal basis for their claims and are just trying to intimidate you with legal threats. Write to your local member of parliament setting out your concerns (or send same copy to them as you send to Fair Trading noting on the letter that both copies have been sent) about this type of operation. This can result in the generation of what other government bodies call a "Ministerial File" from the politician which will get priority attention. It's in short a "Please Explain" request from the politician.

Good luck with it all. I don't mean it as a criticism of you in any way. But we all learn at some stage that there are only a very limited number of people you know well enough to trust. Others you may well consider it wise to listen to, but check things out to your own satisfaction before acting on anyones advice. Hope it works out for you.

MF
 
Originally posted by MF35
I work in criminal investigation and I see it all the time.
Click to expand...

MF35,

If the police sent a few undercover operatives into some of these real estate seminars they would quickly find some highly illegal practices.

With no disrespect, but bearing in mind how little attention seems to be paid officially to this area, are the police interested in preventing these crimes - which affect thousands?

Yes I understand limited resources and all that....however this IS organised crime on a large scale & would be VERY good press for the force!

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
MF35,

Thank you for your kind advise. I shall do so. I rung [company associated with Henry Kaye] this morning and spoke to their legal representative. He advised to me after I explained to him what has happened, my file has been "put on hold for legal proceedings until further notice and give me an answer within 24 hrs."

Awaiting my solicitors response
 
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Originally posted by MF35
Hi Vluu28,

As has been discussed these people / organisations prey on peoples trust. They do their best to put you in a situation that would make you feel very uncomfortable in doing what you should. IE - reading the contract completely. They don't say, "Here take this home with you and read it and show it to your own solicitor". They hand a document to you that would take ages to read and comprehend (if we even have the knowledge to make this judgement depending on the field the document relates to) and then pressure you to sign it immediately. It's a tactic. I work in criminal investigation and I see it all the time. One of the first signs that something is wrong is the pressure sell. If it must be done now or not at all, or it must be done now or you don't qualify for the "subtantial discount" then there is something wrong. They are more often than not at the very least ripping you off price wise or with some hidden charges etc. If it's not out right criminal. IF THE DEAL REALLY WAS THAT GOOD THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO PRESSURE PEOPLE INTO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!


MF
Click to expand...

MF35,


This is EXACTLY what happened to me with my experiences with the NII and [company associated with Henry Kaye]. U come to their free consulting night. And end up signing something u dont want to.

Wether u can afford it or not is not important to them. All they want is for u to sign up so that the sales person can get his commission.

I told them so LOUD and CLEAR I cant sign up, I dont have the MONEY. Their response "Well if you dont have the money now what makes u think u will have it in the future, but its ALLRIGHT, we have a payment system where by paying a few hundred dollars a month u can still register with the NII/[company associated with Henry Kaye]." I then tell them, " But i have all these other things to pay, another payment will not be wise". Again they say "Well u have nothing now, what makes u think u have somehting in the future if u dont spend money now in ur financial future. IT TAKES MONEY TO MAKE MONEY."

I doesnt matter if u are in ur eyeballs of debt and nearly face bankruptcy. These people ar ruthless just to get ur signature.

Please dont get me wrong. I got only really myself to blame for this predicament. Should have just stood up and walked out and tell the [company associated with Henry Kaye] guy to go and get $%$#%^. But i was naive and stupid thinking 'maybe he is right" .

I always believe that majority of people are good and dont do u harm.

Well I know better now. Thanks for all of ur advise. Will certainly do what you suggest.

Once again many thanks and I wish I found this forum earlier.

Vluu
 
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Vluu28,
Get a copy of the latest Weekend edition of the "Australian Financial Review".
Mr. Henry Kaye would appear to be under quite a bit of observation.

LL
 
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