Comment on building and development at the end of a boom. Like now.

[Peter 14.7]

Hi All

There has been a move to less labour intensive products of late such as pre cast panel and face concrete insitu. And larger bricks that lay quicker. But if your want face quality bricklaying you will pay for it.

So, yes, the opportunites for tradies are there and as demand grows.

However Brickies work bloody hard. In the sun, rain, mud and lots of walking. The only person who works harder is the Brickies Labourer. For $25k a year less car travel costs and tools etc..Apprentices have to really have vision to stick it.

Peter 147

 

[likewow]

When i was a young(er) bloke doing an apprenticeship a lot of my mates were in 'adult' jobs and earning far more than me. But i had longer vision and it didnt take me long (mid 20s) before i overtook them and it was epxponentially upwards from there.

Apprentices are paid pathetic wages because they are being paid while they are training and the wages are subsidised by the government.

As far as wages for tradesmen these days, i know a plumber in Sydney whos earning $120k pa and a couple of sparkies not far below that. (thats employees not subbies!!)

Plumbers are among the best paid in the building industry and i know some who have invested their wages from this building boom smartly are doing extremely well.

I miss being on the tools sometimes and the comaraderie of site work but on a cold winter morning i dont.

Can someone PM me when brickies are getting $400/1000, thanks

 

[Peter 14.7]

To all those Apprentices Out There

Become an Auto Door Technician. (slide in and out types lke shops)

I have been quoted $175 an hour each plus min two guys at this rate normal hours. After hours they charge $350 per hour

Peter 147

 

[Sunfish]

In Townsville a fit man who knows his way around a building site can take home $1,200/wk without too much O/T. Fly in/fly out working 12hrs/d (no excuses, no hangovers) can double that.

The best educated can make good money in their professions, but I can see many who don't quite make it. The above rates are for labradors. They pickup skills and become "steel fixers" and they are never out of work.

 

[XBenX]

To all those Apprentices Out There

Become an Auto Door Technician. (slide in and out types lke shops)

I have been quoted $175 an hour each plus min two guys at this rate normal hours. After hours they charge $350 per hour

Peter 147

I had an employee (security guard from the nightclub) leave to go do this - his take hom pay was ~$1500pw

Never heard from him again - must of been going pretty well.

 

[Bill.L]

Hi all,

The implication from the "How to lay Bricks" video, was that this was their ONLY education in bricklaying. They were unskilled labourers.

Thommo, "The above rates are for labradors." Does this mean everyman and his dog???

bye

 

[Lplate]

A problem with the building industry and the trades is that there is no tradition/culture of good workmanship. No pride in good workmanship. Also, most work is casual and I suspect employment conditions are usually poor. From what I've observed on sites there is a lot of bastardisation of younger workers too.

In this environment it is difficult to attract and retain youth. Doubtless there are exceptions but they do not get any publicity.

Would you encourage your son or daughter to take up a building apprenticeship?

 

[likewow]

A problem with the building industry and the trades is that there is no tradition/culture of good workmanship. No pride in good workmanship.

What evidence do you base this satement on?

 

[Sunfish]

No pride in good workmanship.

Compared to whom?

Would you encourage your son or daughter to take up a building apprenticeship?

Why not?

 

[Twitch]

Would you encourage your son or daughter to take up a building apprenticeship?

Beats the hell out of an IT job in corporate land... but then maybe I've just had a bad day

 

[silas]

Hi Lplate

I have a son who can't wait to start a building apprenticship. He will probably also get an advanced diploma or degree in building alongside as he likes telling people what to do too much (especially his father) and so we are encouraging him to get the management etc skills and knowledge at the same time.

With the article metioning that tradespeople were getting more than doctors etc. We could take our lead from Russia during its hayday where the educated were paid the worst and factory workers were paid the highest because there job was the most demanding physically.

silas

 

[see_change]

Would you encourage your son or daughter to take up a building apprenticeship?

My youngest has already announced he wants to be a builder . No Problems from me. ( Admittedly there a few years to go before he has to decide )

On purely financial basis I know more builders who have children at the private schools my kids go to than GP's....

See Change

 

[Bill.L]

Hi all,

I wonder if anyone else is picking up on the opportunity that all this talk about scarce trades will provide.

Using the assumption that with all the newer regulations(ie energy efficient buildings, water conservation etc) that are associated with NEW housing, plus add on the blowout in costs for trades, then the cost of a NEW house/unit/apartment is going to rise at way above inflation for the forseeable future.

If the current slowdown continues for more than a year or two, the discrepency in price between new and established will become large. At some point this difference will be too great and either established houses will rocket up, or building costs come down. This is especially so in a growing population.

Perhaps the common thought that it is the land that always appreciates, while the building depreciates, will be turned on its head!

The opportunity will be in the do-it-yourself renovations that will add extra value in older housing.

I find it interesting that when the media talk about investment property, they talk NEW apartments/townhouses(off the plan).
The reality in this forum seems to be more in tune with the opportunity I mentioned before.

bye

 

[Sunfish]

then the cost of a NEW house/unit/apartment is going to rise at way above inflation for the forseeable future.

House construction has become far more efficient than it was. In the '60 two chippies took a week to pitch a roof, today the trusses come on a crane truck are are up by lunch.

Nail guns, electric tools, mobile phones, gang nails and millions of new products have all helped the builder contain costs. And margins are slimmer too. Thirty years a small builder could make a living doing three or four houses a year. Not now!

But I agree that there has been a big spike lately, mainly in the land component but also in construction to the extent that replacement price of houses built a few years would have nearly doubled here.

Thommo

 

[likewow]

Hi all,

I wonder if anyone else is picking up on the opportunity that all this talk about scarce trades will provide.

Using the assumption that with all the newer regulations(ie energy efficient buildings, water conservation etc) that are associated with NEW housing, plus add on the blowout in costs for trades, then the cost of a NEW house/unit/apartment is going to rise at way above inflation for the forseeable future.

If the current slowdown continues for more than a year or two, the discrepency in price between new and established will become large. At some point this difference will be too great and either established houses will rocket up, or building costs come down. This is especially so in a growing population.

Perhaps the common thought that it is the land that always appreciates, while the building depreciates, will be turned on its head!

The opportunity will be in the do-it-yourself renovations that will add extra value in older housing.

I find it interesting that when the media talk about investment property, they talk NEW apartments/townhouses(off the plan).
The reality in this forum seems to be more in tune with the opportunity I mentioned before.

bye

Bill,

You are only looking at one side of the equation. Building prices are determined largely by how many available trades/builders there are to carry out the work required (demand). The building industry is cyclical, when there are not enough builders/tradies -prices increase across the board.

Thats when the government, Unions and Industry associations (Master Plumbers...etc..) encourage companies to put on more apprentices, which they do with inducements. (As John Howard has done recently )

As these apprentices are almost or just out of their time and the demand eases a bit, you get a surplus of tradesman and prices fall everywhere. (Across all trades)

In these down periods companies reduce or stop the number of apprentices being put on and when the next demand cycle comes around, you have price spikes (like now) and so the cycle continues.

I have seen this going on for years and as the supply lags demand as it always will.

The fact that houses will be more expensive to build will be tempered by the amount of tradesman to build them and as Thommo says, new technolgy entering the building industry.

BTW...I heard on the radio yesterday that the current hourly rate for plumbers in Sydney is $70-$80 per hour. Go Boys.

 

[Bill.L]

Hi all,

Likewow, your assumption is that of rational economics.

In this area, the local employers are reluctant to take on new apprentices for a variety of reasons. Others claim that they just can't find good ones to take on. Many of the kids in our area, who leave education early, go and work as unskilled labour at $15/hr in the local abbs, whereas being an apprentice(first year) they only get $6/hr. With all their wants(mobile phones, cars etc), the $6 just doesn't cut it.

The expectations today are different, why have a physically hard job when you can earn a squillion in the IT industry(that is what many teenagers believe).

If you expect to see $400/1000 bricks again, I think you are just dreammin(unless we get the mother of all depressions and the deflation that goes with it).

bye

 

[Tandella]

With the article metioning that tradespeople were getting more than doctors etc. We could take our lead from Russia during its hayday where the educated were paid the worst and factory workers were paid the highest because there job was the most demanding physically.

Probably up until the point where the factory workers became ill, injured or disabled due to their work environment, and then doctors were in demand

 

[likewow]

Hi all,

Likewow, your assumption is that of rational economics.

In this area, the local employers are reluctant to take on new apprentices for a variety of reasons. Others claim that they just can't find good ones to take on. Many of the kids in our area, who leave education early, go and work as unskilled labour at $15/hr in the local abbs, whereas being an apprentice(first year) they only get $6/hr. With all their wants(mobile phones, cars etc), the $6 just doesn't cut it.

The expectations today are different, why have a physically hard job when you can earn a squillion in the IT industry(that is what many teenagers believe).

If you expect to see $400/1000 bricks again, I think you are just dreammin(unless we get the mother of all depressions and the deflation that goes with it).

bye

You call it rational economics (or whatever name you like to give it), i call it what ive seen happen for years in Sydney.

And you are only talking about your particular rural situation which doesnt really apply to the building industry in say Sydney/Melb/Bris for eg where the real building action is.

There will always be young guys who want to do skilled manual type work because they are great with their hands, dont want to work in an office environment (me), eventually want an easy path to self employment...etc...the problem is matching the demand with the supply.

And its very common for 2nd/3rd year apprentices to do weeknd work in there trade for extra money to supplement their low apprentice wage as was seen in a recent thread on here about someone getting a partition wall built.

I bet we will see brickies rates at that level (or close) within the next 5 years, its not about recession or deflation, its about a cyclical building industry.

 

[Tandella]

The expectations today are different, why have a physically hard job when you can earn a squillion in the IT industry(that is what many teenagers believe).

The IT industry is just as cyclical as any other. Of recent times 2001-2002 were very lean years with many IT professionals out of work. In fact, some of my closest friends and colleagues were so burnt and turned off that they have never worked in IT since. Some have gone on to further their formal education in totally unrelated fields, others found work in different industries, and a few have started business. None went on to become builders though, although in hindsight perhaps some should have

 

[Bill.L]

Hi all,

Likewow, perhaps the experts don't know what they are talking about either??

"With apprentice numbers at a near all time low, and a resulting apprentice shortage, there is now "a black cloud hanging over our trades", according to ETU Assistant National Secretary, John Ingram."

""We are close to an all-time high in terms of the size of the building and construction industry but an all time low in apprentices numbers."

from
http://cepu-electrical.asn.au/etu-news/september_2003/apprentices.html

Or perhaps you could take some evidence from Philip Toner??

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/natint/stories/s1012890.htm

or maybe you base your thoughts on recent political TV adds, that the ACTU claims were wrong??

http://www.actu.asn.au/election2004/news/1094019753_29252.html

Then there is the Archicentres opinion...

http://www.archicentre.com.au/media/July2004NATApprenticeships.htm

good luck in waiting for cheaper trades, you'll need it.

bye