Comments from people you respect

Bit of a rambling post. Just had dinner with a family friend. This is a guy who has known me since I was born. He’s a retired doctor and professor, and his wife is a doctor as well. So we’re talking people who are intelligent, hard working, academically and professionally successful, reasonably well off (I think) and respected in the community.

We had the usual talk about what my plans are for the future, and I decided to be honest. I said I have no interest in developing my career further, and that I plan to just invest and hopefully get out of the work thing soon. I was then told that this is the wrong attitude and that I should have long term plans and more ambition towards my career / business. I was also told how my generation has been spoiled and that we didn’t have to make the hard choices that come with political upheaval, war, etc. (in his case, the decision to leave Hong Kong to come to the US because of fear of the Communists).

I’m used to the older generation telling me that my generation is spoiled (I don’t disagree), but I don’t regret that my generation has been peaceful (at least for me). I didn’t have to go to war, nor have I gone through political upheaval. Whether that means I’m a sissy is another issue, but I don’t want to experience that just to earn their respect.

I WAS a bit miffed at being told I should have more ambition, though. I also wanted to protest that I have a better long term plan than pretty much anyone (and already have more than most people do when they retire), but to do that I would have had to tell him more than I was comfortable with. So, as usual in these sorts of situations, I just swallowed my protests and smiled.

Thinking about it, this is a guy for whom education, academia and his profession has been, and still is, his life. He can’t imagine not living for his profession. I suppose it sounds very arrogant for a 30 year old to say he wants to kick the job early. From his point of view, I’m just some kid who doesn’t understand the hardships of the world and expects everything to fall into my lap. I hope I’m not like that.

He knows I invest in IPs but I don’t think he realises just how serious I am about it. Nor does he realise just how successful people can be at it (remember he’s an academic and all his friends are doctors and teachers). Maybe he doesn’t consider IPs to be a valid alternative to a career. He just talks about simple things like putting money into share funds in his 401k (US super) and when I said super sucks because you can’t borrow money, he said that well, that’s because it’s supposed to be safe.

My point is that, for those who are starting on this road, people who you love and respect will try to tell you it’s a bad idea. They might be family, teachers, bosses, and other people who you respect. Doesn’t mean they’re right. They want the best for you, but they will have different priorities and definition of success and how a person should live their life. It will be hard to respect someone but decide that their advice is wrong (for you), but you have to believe in yourself.

Personally, I’m far enough down this path that I honestly don’t care what other people think. (I’m on a 2 month holiday and everyone else who gave me advice is working and complaining about not having enough money – nuff said). I’ve seen enough successes while doing things people told me not to do that I trust my own judgement.

Those who are still working out whether this whole IP thing actually works may doubt themselves when faced with a very different view from respected, successful (various definitions) people. With IPs, you just have to last the first couple of years. Once you see your portfolio take off, you’ll see why the rest of us believe in it so much.
Alex
 
I guess he might feel that he is contributing to society by way of his research/teaching. Perhaps he feels that a person without a vocation is taking rather than giving.

No doubt his feelings are very true for him.

No reason why they should worry you.
 
Alex, reading through your post, I was hit by the similarity with RDPD. Robert's poor dad was a professor, and his rich dad, an investor and entrepreneur/businessman. RDPD is more than a story...it represents a lot of people we all know in real life. Dealing with others' diverse opinions takes a lot of patience at times, especially when you have fantastic goals for investing, and they are scared....scared to take the risk of making their money work for them. They feel safer working for their money.
You did good biting your tongue and taking the humble road...no skin off your nose. :cool: This shows you respected him and his point of view. The fact that he did not respect yours....well that said heaps about him, and nothing about you.

This holiday/journey of yours is turning out to be some other form of education for you...isn't it! Thankyou so much for sharing it.
 
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

It's even more difficult to hear it from your own dad, person I respect the most.

However, rather than keeping it from him, I have shared every detail of my property invetsing journey with him. Not necessarily to ask for advice but just for conversation. When you are doing well and it's working...what's really to disagree.

It gets on my nerves that I am not respected for what I do to my regular friends. They think I am just a SAHM that spends little time investing and does nothing all day long. Which is mostly true but then I am also the bread winner and look after the household which no one appreciates :mad: except hubby. But lately, I have been hearing it more than usual and have felt that maybe I should return to work because that's considered contributing to society and not lazyness.

I think you will hear that quite a bit in US when on that subject coz Americans pride themselves on strong work ethics. It's like they live for their work rather than work to live and their lives revolve around work. Ambition is climbing the corporate ladder, futher studies etc To them, that's success. do admire that but not for me. Lived there but couldn't stay on.....too suffocating...especially the ABC's.
 
Hey Alex,

They are a different breed altogether aren't they. The best thing you can try and do I've found is pop their hat on for just one second.

Meeting someone like you (young and qualified) after a long absence on their home turf, they have the "upper hand" and feel quite comfortable dolling out opinions and commenting about all caried matters. When you are also equally qualified, but 55 or 60 yrs old and were doing this thing before this young "uppity" was born....I reckon you'd want some respect to. You know, the ol' "I've forgotten more than you'll ever know" type of thing.

Anyway, in you come, 30 yrs of age and for all they know just starting out in the world, not too worldly wise and still a bit green. Despite your confidence / knowledge / experience, you haven't quite established your 'position' in their realm. Suddenly you blurt out a series of philosophies that go counter to everything they believe. They feel comfortable, they feel empowered, they feel like they have the upper hand, and you haven't justified your position with strong figures and evidence - just put it out there with no underlying substance......well of course they are going to react in the way they did. geez, knowing you, it must of been hard to bite your tongue. That respect level must have been sorely tested.

I'm quickly coming to the conclusion - cos I'm treated like that ALL the time negotiating with 55 and 60 yr olds - that, if you are big enough, tough enough and ugly enough.....then you are old enough to have a weighty opinion with substance.

I reckon the fundamental reason you started this thread is cos deep down, you received a fair ol' kicking to your esteem and confidence during that encounter....and it didn't feel good. I agree it's good to vent to a crowd here on SS that like and admire your thoughts and verbage, but to really establish yourself, you sometimes need to go toe to toe with your supposedly senior peerage. I may have appeared more impolite and disrespectful if placed in similar circumstances, but I would of walked away with my head held high. More importantly, they would of walked away with a healthy dose of respect for my opinions.

Stand up for yourself man, you have a lot going for you !!! See you in Perth in a couple of weeks time. You have all that time to practice. Don't let me kick your a$$ when you get here.
 
I can see both sides.

You are out to achieve financial independence. And you will do it far for that 99% of people your age.

And they have been working in a career. Not a job- not something which just gives them money- but something which gives them satisfaction. Something which makes them feel they have done something good for sopciety.

In my old job, I did work which did a lot to catching terrorists. Real ones, who had committed major acts. That made me feel good about myself and about my role in society.

Now I just feed people sandwiches.
 
I reckon the fundamental reason you started this thread is cos deep down, you received a fair ol' kicking to your esteem and confidence during that encounter....and it didn't feel good. I agree it's good to vent to a crowd here on SS that like and admire your thoughts and verbage, but to really establish yourself, you sometimes need to go toe to toe with your supposedly senior peerage. I may have appeared more impolite and disrespectful if placed in similar circumstances, but I would of walked away with my head held high. More importantly, they would of walked away with a healthy dose of respect for my opinions.

Very true, Daz. It isn't a good feeling to be told that all and any of my successes are simply to be expected because I had all the advantages, and anytime I try to criticize the older generation, it's because I just don't understand what they had to go through. I don't deny the fact that I had/have more advantages than most, but I like to think I deserve SOME credit for my achievements. It's frustrating to realise that no matter what I achieve, my upbringing will get the credit.

However, my girlfriend did say 'well, if you cared about this, you wouldn't be you, right?' She understands me better than I thought. I'll get over it: I'm certainly not going to give up on my goals and my own happiness just to get someone's approval.

The only way to really hit back would have been to reveal everything, which would sound too much like bragging. In any case, financial success obviously isn't this family friend's prime objective (and I do respect all the good things he has done as a doctor and a teacher), and further argument would just have destroyed the relationship. I'd rather leave with a decent relationship with swallowed pride on my part, especially as we don't meet that often.

These are the times, though, when I want to just REALLY ignore the rest of the world and just create my own little place. This is going to happen anyway, I think. I certainly don't doubt the road I've chosen, but it's a road that will be misunderstood (amongst other things) by most people. I'm really starting to understand why most people see investors as a group apart: we set ourselves apart because it's just so hard as an investor to talk to 'normal' people about money!

A more light-hearted anecdote: girlfriend and I were shopping the other day. She was happily going through the shops, and I was thinking 'ok, these shops are all tenanted, building looks new, wonder what the rent is? Look at all these depreciable fittings! Would be good to own one of these....' etc. Funny how my mind jumped immediately to that!
Alex
 
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what would he have said if you'd put a different spin on things, like:

"my investment and project management business is going well at the moment. it's a lot of work, and keeping up with changes in taxation law, building codes, etc can be quite challenging. i'd like in the future to concentrate more on my business than furthering my current career. the effort it takes makes it lot more rewarding and i'm definitely developing a much broader knowledge and skills base."

maybe you just need to stop underselling what you do. you're not opting-out. you conduct thorough research and have accumulated a great wealth of knowledge on the subject of property investment (and shares and stuff too, right?). it is time consuming and draining at times. you do need to work at it to be successful. so let people know that, in language they understand.

that's my 2 cents :)
 
Alex, you are a smart guy, no doubt, and focused....maybe too focused....maybe too micro....

What thought do you give to the broader world?

What is the point of holding a lot of property if we have unprecedented cultural, political, and economic change?
What do you understand about peak oil and oil security? Forget global warming. The immediate priority is energy and where the developed world gets it from.
What do you understand about the history of scarcity of resources?
What do you understand about how that history might impact the west's security of supply of energy as Chindia comes on line in the global economy?
How will the US fund their Leviathan force when they can't supply it with oil?
Why are there so many Sudanese refugees living in Housing Commission real estate across Australia now? Because China vetoed the UN from going into Sudan and creating peace... why? because China did a deal with the genocidal govt to secure their oil reserves.


Do you realize all your wealth will amount to nothing if there's a significant disruption to economic, cultural, and political stability?

Read history Alex, and current affairs.
But don't rely on the BBC or the ABC. They don't know their as* from their elbow on these things.

If you are too wired and impetuous to read, try:
http://www.poptech.org
try
Thomas Friedman
and
Thomas Barnett
for starters
 
Further Alex, I take it you are of Chinese descent. Why not start by getting back in touch with your parents' and grandparents' motive to migrate? let alone your reason for moving from Australia to the UK for work.......
 
Thoughts about the broader world? To be honest, I don't have much. I enjoy reading about history, but purely for my own enjoyment and to feed my own thoughts. I have no political or altruistic motive for my reading.

Do I think political issues are going to cause the destruction of the world to the point where my property holdings are worthless? No. Am I worried about the possibility? Not really. If that makes me too micro and focused on myself, I admit that. I'll let those who care worry about the world. I honestly don't believe any of this stuff is a humanity-destroying problem, and even if it was, I don't believe it'll happen in my lifetime. If as a result of this short-sighted view, I don't have a concrete bunker full of gold and food and water when the nukes go off, that's my choice and my mistake, and I'll live with the consequences. I'm in this for me and mine.

Getting away from the point of the post, though. If you want to discuss the morality of being too focused on wealth, start your own thread.
Alex
 
If you want to discuss the morality of being too focused on wealth, start your own thread.
Alex

You could have saved yourself the hassle of starting this thread by throwing that opinion at your family friends last night. They would have unambiguously realized how closed you are to the morality and history behind their perspectives. Then you could have educated them about your superior grasp on the advantages of endless leverage.
 
I wouldn't be worried about lack of respect for investment acumen from someone who isn't an investor. And conversely getting respect for your investment achievements from someone who has no aspirations to be an investor isn't worth a whole lot.

Deriding your lack of 'career' ambition appears to show that they think that 'a career' is the highest one can aim.

However, if 10 years ago some young bloke had said to me that they were planning to retire before 40 on their investments I'd have been pretty derogatory too! - you have to see it to believe it.
 
A more light-hearted anecdote: girlfriend and I were shopping the other day. She was happily going through the shops, and I was thinking 'ok, these shops are all tenanted, building looks new, wonder what the rent is? Look at all these depreciable fittings! Would be good to own one of these....' etc. Funny how my mind jumped immediately to that!
Alex

I do this all the time, it has become an obsession.:)
 
. They want the best for you, but they will have different priorities and definition of success and how a person should live their life.

Alex

Get this a lot at my workplace - I am actually glad we don't have regular performance reviews, as it gets hard to explain my apparent lack of enthusiasm in "moving up" (I like my position, I don't want more responsibilities :) )

I also recommend my subordinates to be sent on training courses instead of me (as I quite truthfully tell them, they are the ones doing the "real work" - I just order them around) despite my (very good) manager telling me it would look good on my resume.

Cheers,

The Y-man
 
Thoughts about the broader world? To be honest, I don't have much.....

....and I believe that is perfectly fine :) Get your own life in order, be self sufficient. The bigger stuff will come around later, when 1. you will have the time to do whatever you want, whenever you want 2. you will have enough financial power behind you to truly make a difference to the world in some way.

Cheers,

The Y-man
 
This year I got to where I could retire and live off the property, and I took a year off to do some stuff I had postponed for years, which was great. But now I've ended up taking a job again. Why? When you don't HAVE to work, then work is different. When you get there you'll understand.
 
I said I have no interest in developing my career further, and that I plan to just invest and hopefully get out of the work thing soon.

Maybe this is where you went wrong.

There is no such thing as to 'just invest'. Professional investing is a valid career.

Especially when it's providing a real service to people, eg housing. You are working at a primary job while developing a second career as an investor so that eventually this takes over.

Though we may look at spreadsheets, yields and internal rates of return, it's probably better to forget this and stick to the tangibles when explaining what we do to the uninitiated. It also makes us seem more important, much more so than some faceless share-trader (whose activity has zero community benefit or engagement).

Your professor might have some difficulty considering that providing housing for people a valid career, but you'd have the same problem if you quit work to join a band, paint pictures or write a book (which might be better understood).

And if he still didn't get it, you could have even claimed your break as a sabattical - there's no reason why only academics should have these!

Getting back to the career parallels, like a business you're your own boss in investing. But like a paid job there are definite progression points. For example:

1. Saving a deposit
2. First purchase of a unit
3. First purchase of a house
4. First use of equity in one property to buy more
5. First renovation project
6. First commercial investment
7. First subdivision
etc

Not every property investor will wish to do all of these. But there is a clear structure. And with the lack of a regular pay cheque (unless your properties are tenanted), investments isn't necessarily a softer option than a 'real job' either.

Peter
 
Why? When you don't HAVE to work, then work is different. When you get there you'll understand.

Even when you get there, I find it a bit perplexing. My side business generates 5 times my salary at my "day job". Yet, I rock up to my desk each day for 9 hours, talk to (placate) clients, attend meetings, sort out other people's little emergencies etc. I think it has come down to:

1. the fear that I would be bored ****less sitting at home running my biz (which involves sitting in front of a computer, watching the screen)

2. the uncertainty that I would add any more value to my business if I spend my full uninterrupted time on it.

Cheers,

The Y-man
 
Hi Alex,

I tried to explain to my parents once what we were trying to achieve. (My wife and I). They just didn't understand. I didn't go into the full details of my position, but enough to give them a fairly clear picture.

Furthermore, I challenged my dad just last night regarding his financial planner. His planner has sold the business, and a new firm has taken over. Dad's investments are now being managed by an inexperienced consultant who is extremely young. :eek: The fees are also being raised. I suggested to dad that he should look around, and even try managing his own investments himself. Well, he quickly passed the phone over to my mum, and refused to talk to me about it!! Mum then said that "they are not interested in money"!!! My reply was "that may be the case, but I'm sure you don't want to be ripped off!"

Its always been a sore point between myself and my parents since I dumped this financial planner quiet sometime ago. I had no hesitation in telling dad that things have gone a hell of a lot better without the planner, and he could achieve the same.

Perhaps I should have bit my tongue like you did Alex. Anyway, dad will probably call me again in a month's time, and I shall talk about something else!!!

You did the right thing Alex by keeping quiet.

I liked Lucy's suggestion to talk about your investing in a different way.

All the best Alex, and enjoy your trip.

Regards Jason.
 
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