Developers, rise up against the zealots of negativity!

People,

Read a good or atleast a topical article which I could very much relate to which some here may also find of interest. Written by Bernard Salt and can be found here.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ts-of-negativity/story-e6frg9jx-1226102877782

I have written up a blog (my first) as my response on the article thats how impassioned I got when I read it today over a coffee.

http://t.co/0vk7kpV

Would be keen to see what you guys think, especially the developers out there.

Cheers,

TC
 
Was just reading some affordability article on news.com.au the other day and sure enough, one of the comments (after the tirade against Gen Y buying expensive gadgets and having holidays) was a lone developer, saying they were TRYING to build some affordable housing near shops and the train line, and getting blocked by NIMBYs.

Owning your own patch of dirt is the great Australian dream, followed closely by stopping other people from turning their blocks of dirt into higher density ones.
 
I have a weird re-accuring dream. The dream I have has me at a council meeting in castle hill, nsw were the council hall is packed with people protesting there is no train lines or appropriate public transport.

The committee then stand up holding up a map of castle hill and a black marker pen and say, we agree and will start building a new train line tommorow all we need to know is were to run the line so please lets agree on were to place the line here on this map.

Minutes later the entire hall empties and all you can hear is people muttering under their breath that perhaps no train line is best.

(I know I have weird dreams)

The moral of the story even if the whole community know they need something as critical as public transport the second they realise there will be some change that may effect them, objectors will stop it.

They stop it because people think thats democracy. Sorry but democracy to me means if 99% of people desperately want something the misguided whinging of 1% cannot possibly derale a whole project... but it does.

Was just reading some affordability article on news.com.au the other day and sure enough, one of the comments (after the tirade against Gen Y buying expensive gadgets and having holidays) was a lone developer, saying they were TRYING to build some affordable housing near shops and the train line, and getting blocked by NIMBYs.

Owning your own patch of dirt is the great Australian dream, followed closely by stopping other people from turning their blocks of dirt into higher density ones.
 
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Hi Tim, I tried to post the following as a comment but the damn comment options thingy is beyond me -

Outstanding! I'm not a developer, but work in the construction industry, and well-know of the months - often stretching to years - countless of my customers have faced getting DAs approved for never any good reason. Your proposal to require development objections to cite valid code or process violations to merit council consideration is spot on. This could begin simply by requiring councils to do so in their rejections of DAs, rather than with interminable vague references to "amenity". Above all, a change in the entire planning approval structure is required from a 'show cause why' a development should be approved to a 'show cause why not' position. And perhaps Salt's suggestion of an industry body or think tank to campaign for such change has indeed come. Good work!
 
The problem is that many objectors do cite planning code requirements but in a way that basically attempts to replicate councils job.

Very few developments comply 100% to the letter of the planning code instead they meet the performance criteria of the code.

For instance I had a situation where one part of one building within a townhouse complex was (possibly) higher than maximum height allowed by 15cm (I am talking part of the roof not even the whole roof).

Now people reading this may say well if you dont meet the planning code strictly then thats the developers problem. The problem is this, if there was no objections then council would see 15cm as negligble or a non-issue because the said development meets fully the intent of the code. Further more it can always be fixed (with time\money) but a 15cm change will have no material benefit to anyone (in most circumstance) - except when you block someones view etc.

Other objections second guess council and challenge their own assesment and start citing incorrect planning codes or stretching their intent.

My issue is that the objector couldnt care less if a part of the roof was potentially 15cm higher than technically allowable. They just dont want development.

I feel objectors should state clearly their OBJECTION to the development. Although receiving one appropriate objection (which was wrong and had to do with a contention regarding boundary lines) I have yet to receive a second OBJECTION which actually related to a personal objection with the development.

If objectors were truthfull they themselves know their so called objection wouldnt be given any credibility because it would start of something like...

"My objections with this development is that I dont like units, I dont like townhouses and I dont want this to occur in my street or suburb."

Instead what we get is...

"I object to this development because traffic would be a nightmare, its too big, its ugly, it doesnt fit into the streetscape, there isnt enough parking, the windows look over my house, my house will live in its shadow, i dont like how that shrub is being removed, and the noise created will be untolerable"

Council then grabs this and turns it into a please explain, something like...

"Please confim traffic, please provide a render or more elevations to show the bulk and scale, please show a shadow diagram, please have an arborist confirm no vegetation on site is protected and have a detailed acoustic report... and so on and so on"

20-30 thousand dollars and 3-4 months later council then move onto the (sometimes) legitimate concerns they may have with the development itself when their professionals look at the application as opposed to an frustrated neighbor who works as a part time hair-stylist and angry with us developing the site!

Its a tiresome process and the issue is this. If there was no objections then council would concentrate on the issues, if there are objections then council just asks the applicant as if money\time was never an issue to beef up all reports, provide more report, detail etc regardless of whether the issue is valid in any way shape or form or whether the objector has any knowledge at all about the objections made themselves...

A debate in Australia needs to take place as to how we handle individuals concerns (or so called objections). Somehow developers are made out to be the destroyers of suburbs.

Ill end with a little story I found amusing which frustratingly highlights the stupidity of many peoples stance against development in general.

I had one objector cry fowl that she has been living in a suburb for over 30 years and went on an on about she has the right to not see the suburb she has lived in for so long destroyed!

My town planner (who was with me) politely said I have been living here (same suburb by coincidence) for over 50 years and when we bought there was only 7 houses including his own. They then sold off the majority of their land to a developer who then land subdivided the block she now owns and lives on...

ironic isnt it.. it would be funny if it wasnt so painful.

Also do you think this story made one iota of a difference in here stance or thinking? fat chance..

Hi Tim, I tried to post the following as a comment but the damn comment options thingy is beyond me -

Outstanding! I'm not a developer, but work in the construction industry, and well-know of the months - often stretching to years - countless of my customers have faced getting DAs approved for never any good reason. Your proposal to require development objections to cite valid code or process violations to merit council consideration is spot on. This could begin simply by requiring councils to do so in their rejections of DAs, rather than with interminable vague references to "amenity". Above all, a change in the entire planning approval structure is required from a 'show cause why' a development should be approved to a 'show cause why not' position. And perhaps Salt's suggestion of an industry body or think tank to campaign for such change has indeed come. Good work!
 
nice blog tcocaro.

On the macro side of things;

It is interesting that even as O'Farrel starts to move in the right direction first pausing on the CPI increase to the state gov dev levy and then pushing on with his greenfield releases the objections are already starting. I just hope O'Farrel holds his nerve...

JUST a week after the O'Farrell government released 3000 housing lots in south-west Sydney, planning experts have urged the government to review its plan for a major expansion of housing on the city fringe, citing limited demand from potential buyers.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/fringe-housing-flawed-planners-warn-20110719-1hn7w.html#ixzz1TfGW0A2T
 
I think the issues raised in this article relate more to the view (which I share) that its unrealistic to assume a 50/50 split. I havent read the details to be honest however if it its mandated that if a unit complex for 500 units is to be built within an existing suburb that 500 house lots need to be built i.e. 50/50 split then his is a little absurd.

I fear that this 50/50 split is an attempt placate "objectors" into the idea that for every unit being built there is also a house lot out there being created. Problem is objectors dont give a stuff whats happening outside their suburb, if a unit is being built on their street be assured of an objection.

Where did the 50/50 split come from anyways? Seems very arbitrary with no basis. I am very concerned this figure was plucked out of the sky for sounding right rather than being an appropriate figure (if a mandated split of any percentage is a good idea to begin with).

I do sympathise with politicians as I understand the dilema faced by governments. How to say the following in a way that wont get them lynched in the streets...

"We dont care about your petty anti-development sentiments we refuse to build further and further out in nowehere land rather than building higher densities in existing suburbs".

Greenfield developments are easier to get through for governments only because luckily for developers cows in paddocks dont object (for now).

nice blog tcocaro.

On the macro side of things;

It is interesting that even as O'Farrel starts to move in the right direction first pausing on the CPI increase to the state gov dev levy and then pushing on with his greenfield releases the objections are already starting. I just hope O'Farrel holds his nerve...
 
Hence my argument TC that we need a reversal in law of the onus of proof. It should be upon objectors to prove to council the case against a development, rather than for a developer to be forced to do so. I bet you if objectors had to stump up cash for professional reports they would be very careful what they objected to, and save their objections for serious issues where collective community donations against a particular (rather than every) development would be wisely spent.
 
I have given this thought previously and although I instinctively agree the politically pragmatic part of my brain knows it wont work or never get off the ground.

Opposition forces would simply say, an unemployed grandmother shouldnt have to risk her livelyhood to pay for huge fees to fight the evil developer from building next door.

Instead my view is there should be a govenrment body to review objections that excludes both the council in question and the developer. This body should determine if a) there is a material impact to the objector should this development proceed and b) if their objection is valid in anyway. Depending on this the government body can then refer it back to the council and request the developer attend to the highlighted concerns.

For instance in Canberra there is the absurd situation that for the cost of a cheap dinner you can take a developer\applicant to tribunal (AFTER COUNCIL APPROVAL IS GIVEN!!!). A developer cannot claim damages for any resulting delay unless the objector (which is in their right) to take me to tribunal again such their initial attempts fail TWICE!?!?!!?!?!

Now this is perverse!

Again the developer (who is the only party involved who stands to loose an unrecoverable amount in terms of dollars and time irrespective of outcome) should be withdrawn from such a tribunal.

Instead like the suggestion above a seperate government body should first review such objections and demand that any claim of failed compliance be from an expert not just their say-so.

There are pragmatic solutions but they are all on the surface or will be attacked for not being 100% inclusive or democratic. The alternative however is unsustainable were a senile grandmother worried about her pumpkin patch being disturbed can literally for under $200 dollars take the likes of Meriton to tribunal to answer her accusations. Ofcourse it will be a quick challenge and be thrown out but the mere fact it can reach the point were a granmother, adjudicator and a barrister acting for the developer are in the same room amazes me to no end.

Hence my argument TC that we need a reversal in law of the onus of proof. It should be upon objectors to prove to council the case against a development, rather than for a developer to be forced to do so. I bet you if objectors had to stump up cash for professional reports they would be very careful what they objected to, and save their objections for serious issues where collective community donations against a particular (rather than every) development would be wisely spent.
 
"I object to this development because traffic would be a nightmare, its too big, its ugly, it doesnt fit into the streetscape, there isnt enough parking, the windows look over my house, my house will live in its shadow, i dont like how that shrub is being removed, and the noise created will be untolerable"

8 of these 9 points are valid reasons to object to a development. Why do developers persist in designing ugly eyesores which are too big for the space where traffic problems have not been worked out and which impact adversely on the surrounding houses?

How can developers complain about process when they can get away with building vast slabs of boring energy inefficient houses which face west and have no eaves?

I remember once a development of townhouses in California. In the home of protest there was not a single one. It's because the development consisted of well designed and constructed affordable homes which enhanced the community. It did not look like a future slum. It paid off in spades for the developer because he had queues of people lined up to buy these homes.

Why do developers not understand why they are so unloved? It's nothing to do with a culture of negativity - the negativity exists because the actual developments are unimaginative monuments to poor taste.
 
your my case and point.

Given my experience there is little point in trying to give reasons as to why you are so wrong but here goes.

#1. Your not a traffic engineer. Developments include a traffic engineering report clearly stating whether or not its within australian standard and/or local code.

#2. Silly us developers wanting to build to the allowable maximum set for that zoning/block and reflective of the price the land was sold at given vendors price the land according to its maximum yield rather than its lowest. If you dont like it go to council and seek to have the zoning change.

#3. Adversly impact surrounding houses? Sounds very familiar to the non specific so called objections. These suburbs for the most part are ex-govy properties and not heritage listed masterpeices so I dont know how a new development can impact these. Regardless the impact would be to increase the price of such properties I challenge you to find me a suburb which has been developed and as a result the houses there have fallen.

#4 ugly eyesores. Another non specific cry. Based on whose determination? Do you think developers pureposley build ugly buildings? Also do you think people buy ugly buildings? Or do you think its YOUR VIEW that its ugly contrary to my view that its NOT. Were talking about taste here because the code does cover materials and external treatements so again are you a town planner when you make such a claim? I suspect no.

#5 Inefficient housing. Sorry but we follow the australian standard, building codes australia and set codes from the LGA\DCP etc. So if you have a gripe with concrete being used instead of fairy dust for slabs then take this up with the government not me.

#6 Facing west. Ummm try getting a development through if the rest of the street scape doesnt (given in the past they didnt care how the building faced) oh thats right we cant because people will cry that it doesnt fit into the said street scape. Sorry our hands are tied here all we can do is put windows etc oh yeh you cry over this too due to privacy.

#7 No eaves. Ummm and? Seems like your crying over masteron mcmansions not developments of units\townhouses. And so what, the opera house doesnt have eaves, flat roof or anything convensional about it you would have been right there together with the rest of sydney complaining about this development too. (I know what your thinking, chalk and cheese right?) Unfortunately everyone objected the opera house too when it was built so beleive me imagination and taste as you put it doesnt matter people like you will still cry.

#7 Californian project - Anecdotal evidence which is pointless. Please post a link showing this development and ill bet my last dollar there will be those here that think its hideous. Also what market was this made in? If i was building in Balmain\Sydney people will pay for such (above coded requirement) efficiency measures. However if you build them in Fairfield/Sydney they will sit there and not sell.

#8 We understand why we developers are unloved dont you worry. The more appropriate question is do those people like yourself who object so much understand why they get ignored over and over again despite their mopes and groans.. - i doubt it.

Do you have a photo of your house? Is it stock standard? Is it filled with imagination? Architectural elements? facing east? solar panels and what materials are used in its construction? concrete? concrete roof tiles? do you have a water tank? do you have large windows or small? do you own a pool? How large is the block? Anything under an acre is a re-subdivision i.e (developed i.e. cramming in your words).

Anyways... I cannot object more to your response :)

8 of these 9 points are valid reasons to object to a development. Why do developers persist in designing ugly eyesores which are too big for the space where traffic problems have not been worked out and which impact adversely on the surrounding houses?

How can developers complain about process when they can get away with building vast slabs of boring energy inefficient houses which face west and have no eaves?

I remember once a development of townhouses in California. In the home of protest there was not a single one. It's because the development consisted of well designed and constructed affordable homes which enhanced the community. It did not look like a future slum. It paid off in spades for the developer because he had queues of people lined up to buy these homes.

Why do developers not understand why they are so unloved? It's nothing to do with a culture of negativity - the negativity exists because the actual developments are unimaginative monuments to poor taste.
 
Well, you clearly paint a grim picture, Tcocaro. I can imagine the howls of anti-democratic interference if objections couldn't go straight to council (but had to go to a state-level valid-objection screening department first, as you suggest). Perhaps it could be a commission of indepenent town certifiers, instead (democratically elected perhaps), to depoliticise it? It's a bloody mess of a situation, that's for sure. More and more I agree with Salt's suggestion that a decent think tank is needed to look at this. He's well-linked to the Lowy Institute. Perhaps that's the sort of respected independent forum that should be enrolled for this?
 
call me Tim :)

tcocaro is an old habit from my IT days were my login to everything was usualy first letter of name followed by last name... old habits die hard.

Well, you clearly paint a grim picture, Tcocaro. I can imagine the howls of anti-democratic interference if objections couldn't go straight to council (but had to go to a state-level valid-objection screening department first, as you suggest). Perhaps it could be a commission of indepenent town certifiers, instead (democratically elected perhaps), to depoliticise it? It's a bloody mess of a situation, that's for sure. More and more I agree with Salt's suggestion that a decent think tank is needed to look at this. He's well-linked to the Lowy Institute. Perhaps that's the sort of respected independent forum that should be enrolled for this?
 
I think the issues raised in this article relate...
Where did the 50/50 split come from anyways? Seems very arbitrary with no basis. I am very concerned this figure was plucked out of the sky for sounding right rather than being an appropriate figure (if a mandated split of any percentage is a good idea to begin with).

If governments are considered to "create housing" it is greenfield. Urban consolidation and that policy is more a result of governments blocking greenfield. IT is why in NSW I am bullish fringe land short term with the change in gov but bearish anything else long term.

These ****** planners say; look how people like living more and more in units? They claim we young families of the future prefer living in 2br apartments over looking a train station than on a 750sq.m block on the fringe.

Does it have anything to do with Sydneys consolidation policy introduced substantially under Carr in the mid 90s? This same policy slowing greenfield expansion to the rate we see today?

The point is land use used to be dictated by a market. Land would be paddocks and then when it was worth more as developed land it would get developed. Now it is "made" (rezoned) by governments and then taxed in its transformation from paddocks to blocks.

A lot on the cc I looked at recently cost 7k per block to procure the land then another 100k in government tax between S94 and state gov levy 75,000 per block. Tenfold more in government tax then procurement? Sure it was probably a 50/50 chance of getting up at resi rather than a less intense zoning but it was well worth a stab buy 5 in the same and you would be certain of getting 3 of them up. Land is cheap, government taxes on development in NSW are a joke.... Add land tax while you hold and GST upon sale and you are well over 100k per block in gov costs in the Sydney basin. Big blocks 800sq.m plus and its over 150k. Around Perth you can buy blocks for this finished.

Land around Sydney is cheap. People must understand it is the government that has created the ridiculous situation Sydney is in and the Liberals are having a crack at digging us collectively out of it.

Anyway I have digressed from the question, the libs are not saying we need a 50/50 split. Labor under Carr wanted to reign in greenfield devel and created a drive to urbanisation from a roughly 50/50 split historically to reign it right back to nearly 20/80 by releasing less on the fringe and taxing by the hectare, clearly affecting big blocks more than small which also drove smaller block creation when greenfield devel still occured. Carr and Labor were the one who created targets. The libs are simply relaxing the rules a bit so the market can have some role in deciding where future Sydney-siders live.

It is orwellian truthspeak when i read in the papers we don't like mowing lawns hence demand these 450k 450sq.m blocks. It is a market response to taxation and planning policy.

Ultimately voting libs back in is a step in the right direction, but as the Libs are saying they want to encourage devel both of multi units and greenfield not one at the expense of the other it is not a target that was the former govs policy.
 
Silly us developers wanting to build to the allowable maximum set for that zoning/block and reflective of the price the land was sold at given vendors price the land according to its maximum yield rather than its lowest. If you dont like it go to council and seek to have the zoning change.

I am not against development but the big development near our house got the neighbourhood up in arms, and we attended a meeting to air our concerns.

The problem was that the developer was not wanting to develop the block according to the town plan. From memory the town plan allowed four stories and the developer was pushing for seven. It is a retirement village, and the units were really tiny, like bedsits. I didn't care about that, because if someone wants to buy a tiny unit that is his/her choice.

Our objections was that a block that council said could support housing for 400 was being pushed to have approval for 650. Those numbers are not exactly correct but that is the basic idea.

If the developer had put up a proposal for what was approved and allowed under the council zoning, I doubt there would have been the problems there were. The parking for that big number of people, staff etc looked like it would impact on the local streets.

This largish block was going to house more beds than the Greenslopes Private Hospital. If anybody knows what the streets surrounding that hospital are like for parking, they will understand our concern.

Anyway, my guess was that the developer would push for 650 beds in the hope that it would be "trimmed" by council to 500, and still get more than what would be allowed on that block under the current Town Plan, which is what happened from what I heard. I do know the meeting was very interesting, and the developer just looked sooooo bad. Answered questions like a true politician ;). Mood was ugly. But I do know that the village itself was welcome, but not jammed in like sardines, against the current zoning and higher than allowed under the Town Plan.

It is being built now. The units WILL sell because there is such scarcity of such accommodation, but I believe it could have been so much better, more space, and each unit selling for because they seriously look like dorm bedrooms from the plans.

Anyway, that is my experience with developers trying to push things through that are NOT approved under the current zoning.

Maybe if some developers were honest initially or didn't try to sneak things through that clearly are not going to be allowed under the current rules, they would be more respected.
 
As a developer I roundly agree with the article/thoughts in this thread, but I must say that, as someone who has gone through the process, that many of my competing developers spend far too much time contemplating the economics of a development rather than the human aspect.

My personal mindset is to preempt negative public/planning feeling with thorough demonstration of why my development application has merit. I have seen many instances of my competition justifying their application with a single line "we believe that the site has development potential" or that "the proposed development has architectural merit" - completely neglecting to elaborate on how the proposed development not only complies with the planning scheme, but benefits the wider community.

That being said, I occasionally do hate the guts of planners who take 7 months to do something that should take 7 weeks, tie up my money in development property that is in slow motion, make me pay interest, and generally make my life miserable.

Similarly, I hate a system that makes developers so cautious that, instead of designing vibrant, gorgeous structures that utilise the full potential of the land, and benefit the client/wider community, developers instead take the safe road and design constipated structures that fit within the scheme, but in the end, are terrible designs.

Also, I do despise developers/RE agents who are in it 100% for the money and will sell any old dogbox so long as they get paid, and earn the rest of the industry a bad rep. That phenomenon of course is not limited to development.

The other thing that I disagree with is that developers are cowardly, and do not voice their opinions. I got into a yelling match with a couple of government ministers the other month (who could do me serious harm economically) in direct opposition of a development as an objector, and in other instances, have zero decorum when adressing objections to things I'm doing. My favorite reply to an objection was some joker who said that my building would "block light to my property". From my memory, my reply was something along the lines of "given that the orientation of adjacent lots is north/south, and that the sun comes up in the east and sets in the west, and unless mr y neighbour is suggesting that the granting of x rezone would alter the orientation of the solar plane towards a perpendicular axis, we hence have the position that his objection is spurious and should be rejected out of hand"

I kind of thought it was funny, but no one in development consent laughed. Bastids.
 
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