Doing business with like minded people

[Mike]

Hi,

The title of this thread was inspired by a recent thread started by Sunstone called Surrounding yourself with like minded people

The theme of that particular thread was "Do you consciously concentrate on surrounding yourself with positive likeminded people and avoid being with "gunnas" or negative mindsets?" While there were many interesting contributions, based on a few comments, Jakk's first post was the standout. So I hope Jakk can do a sequel for this thread.

It's one thing to share knowledge and experience with like-minded people but would you joint venture with, buy property from, or use their services if your money was involved? Caveat Emptor has been around for sometime now but I have no idea whether anyone has actually become involved with any of the deals presented there. I certainly haven't although some deals have looked interesting. My fear is getting involved with someone I know little about and trusting them to act honestly and ethically to get the deal done.

My question is "How important is the honesty and credibility of the person posting the deal? Is it something to consider or is it only the deal that matters? If the deal stacks up does it matter who is presenting the deal? What happens if you learn the deal was posted by Peter Foster, for example? Would it matter that Peter Foster was jailed for fraud? It is claimed that Peter Foster is a smooth-talking "charmer" (ask Cherie Blair). Foster says that he had never made any attempt to hide his criminal past. "I have never hidden my past from anybody. I have paid my dues and moved on, learning from my past mistakes." Despite his apparent honesty does that alter the fact that he has a tendancy toward conning people? Would you do business with Peter Foster if he was a like-minded property investor like yourself?

Regards, Mike

PS I have included a poll with this post.

 

[Kristine..]

Hi Mike

Human nature is a many headed beast, something Freud spent a lifetime exploring.

We can meet someone who seems just lovely, knowledgeable, quick witted and successful. We are thinking of some sort of venture, and they know someone who can get us a good deal. They are so pleasant and charming, and offer to do the legwork for us, (and we're really lazy) so what the heck! Of course we'll buy our new fridge from the Dodgy Brothers Superstore, and not from Myers or Retravision where we had already priced the item.

But, the model we wanted wasn't in stock, so they ordered an alternative for us (without asking), and then there was delivery charges 'of course', and no, after all, they couldn't take the old fridge away, well maybe, for another $100 (cash). And surprise, a week after the fridge was delivered the new lawnmower went missing from the shed.

Every time we open the fridge, a little shiver runs down our spine.

Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

Trouble is, how can we tell a mangy dog?

We can't get a Police Check without the person's consent, and then if the record is more than ten years old, or is considered not relevant to the request, the record is not disclosed.

A snake oil salesman is not necessarily a crook, and it's up to us if we buy the oil or not.

Many people are incompetent, not dishonest.

Many people lack the capacity to make value judgements for themself.

But some people are intrinsically dishonest, yet very competent at their 'day job'.

Would you marry a man / woman who had a history of affairs while previously married? Why delude yourself that 'this time' they will behave differently?

Would you do business with someone who had been convicted of something (anything) which carried a jail term (suspended or imposed)? That's pretty serious stuff!

Would you do business with someone whose assets were protected by trust structures, so even if you sued them you would receive no compensation?

Caveat Emptor does not mean 'buyer be aware, except in this circumstance, 'cos he's such a jolly good fellow!'

There's an old saying about hiding something by putting it in full view. Remember the movie 'Investigation of a Citizen Above Suspicion'? Many shysters throw up the smokescreen of a glittering reputation.

So, Mike, would I do business with a convicted criminal, just because they present themselves as a like-minded property investor like myself?

Perhaps we need to remember, that the deal of a lifetime comes around every Tuesday. There are plenty of deals that stand up to scrutiny, are not reliant on 'favours' or 'being in the know'.

That the carrot of the profit, or the mateship, or the cleverness of it all, will not be worth the enduring little shiver at the end?


Thanks for the post

Kristine

 

[always_learning]

Kristine raises some good real-life issues we have to consider with our dealings with people. It is much bigger than caveat-emptor.

We dont live in isolation, we need to cooperate with each other to progress, collective cooperation is in the benefit of all. Naturally some poeple take advantage of our natural cooperative/trusting habits, are out to trick, defraud or much worse and naturally they will wear sheep clothes to get near to strike.

When I was in india every single taxi driver tried (without exception) to rip me off, charge double, triple, 10 times. Does this mean taxi-drivers in india are evil? of course not this is just there standard way of dealing with white-westerners, for a local indian businesman the taxi drives dont even try to get US$10 for a 3km trip.

But what about those who have commited more serious "criminal" offenses or those crimes people would consider evil. Have these people tainted themselves for life can they be trusted? In my opinion the answer is "NO", they cannot be trusted again by society.

But would I give these criminals a job? Would I let a convicted, (seemingly repentant) bank robber who has retrained himself to be an electrician, who has been recomended by others, rewire my house? The answer is well yes I would, but I would keep a quiet eye on my stuff!

Would I let my kids stay overnight at Michael Jackson's amusement park and house? hell no! (guilty or not he is tainted), but I may listen to his music and watch him dance, I "trust" in the obvious that he can sing and dance better than me. (Actually I never liked MJ, it is just a point)

So the best we can do is simply to find people who independantly can colaborate the claim, seek independant references and referals. Dodgy Bros Discount Supermarket wont get repeat business, wont get referenals and will get many people telling each other what a pack of bastards Dodgy Bros. "My friends, uncles, workmates sister-in-law's mother's boyfriend was ripped off by Dodgy bros".

We take people we meet at face value, but before we trust them with anything we deaply value ( like out families) we should do our best to verify and check.

So Caveat-Emptor, is no better or worse that any type of human interaction. "I accept you for what you say you are, but before I trust you I will first be check that you are really what you say you are, and the only way to measure this by looking at the reality of what you have done in the past!".

 

[SEASON]

Mike,

like-minded for me means not only someone who has same interests but most importanly someone who has same values and believes.

as for dealing with like-minded people - if we are talking business/property/investment deals, i would try and do as much as i can to check their credibility and experiense. But if i was buying a kitchen table from a trader - what's there to check?

you see, it's hard for the smooth-talkers who call themselves the "good fellas" to keep fooling (unless they were hopping from town to town). good deals come and go, bad deeds will be remembered forever...........

about experience - it's easier to do business with someone who has credibility and not much experience than with someone who has enourmous experiense and NO credibility. You can easily get Experiense/skill, but you have to EARN credibility.

just my view, Mike

 

[Jakk]

Originally posted by Mike
Hi,


My question is "How important is the honesty and credibility of the person posting the deal? Is it something to consider or is it only the deal that matters? If the deal stacks up does it matter who is presenting the deal? What happens if you learn the deal was posted by Peter Foster, for example? Would it matter that Peter Foster was jailed for fraud? It is claimed that Peter Foster is a smooth-talking "charmer" (ask Cherie Blair). Foster says that he had never made any attempt to hide his criminal past. "I have never hidden my past from anybody. I have paid my dues and moved on, learning from my past mistakes." Despite his apparent honesty does that alter the fact that he has a tendancy toward conning people? Would you do business with Peter Foster if he was a like-minded property investor like yourself?

Regards, Mike

Interesting Question and one that requires a bit of soul searching methinks.

I believe that I would do business with Peter Foster or anyone else for that matter that had a dubious history, BUT, the level of safeguards that I would put in place would be a lot greater than if I was dealing with somebody that I had previously dealt favourably with.
Mind you I wouldn't go out of my way to locate somebody like this to deal with but we are assuming here that "A DEAL" was presented or offered to us.
In such a situation the due diligence process would have to be intense, in actual fact, being forewarned about somebodys "shonkiness" makes one more cautious and any deal would be investigated more thoroughly.
Thus being the case and the numbers stacking up I would proceed.
People do make mistakes in life, (I should know), but that doesn't mean people don't change. Treat everyone as genuine until you have reason to believe otherwise, but put safeguards in place.
But then again, shouldn't we all have safeguards in place for everything we do? Isn't it true that we always get struck from where we least expect it? The important issue here is the deal and how comfortable you are in doing it, If sleepless nights will ensue, No Deal is worth it, our peace of mind should be paramount.
Everyday in our lives, we take risks, we cross busy roads, we walk down slippery steps, we drive cars, we take on 25 year mortgages when in reality we dont know what our financial situation will be in 3 months, but generally we survive these risks and move forward. With no risk, there is no reward, the level of risk we are comfortable with is a personal thing and we should not compromise our level of comfort to any extent greater than we are prepared to endure.

As for the forums Caveat Emptor section, I too have perused this on occasions and if I were to find anything in my area of investment, I would make the neccessary enquiries to ascertain the viability of the deal, secondary to me would be, who it was that was presenting the deal.

Personally, I wouldn't care if Mother Teresa was telling me how great the deal was, I would do my own sums, God bless her soul but when I am parting with my HARD EARNED, I want to be 110% sure that I am not being taken for a ride.
...and I believe that's the number one lesson people need to learn in property dealings, Trust in yourself first, do the numbers, do the research and if it still seems too good to be true, do them again and if you have any doubts, simply don't do it.
...It doesn't get any simpler than this

......now off the high horse and back to paperwork

regards

 

[Mike]

Thankyou Kristine, always_learning, SEASON, and Jakk for your wonderful "soul-searching". The subject matter seems to be unpalatable for many hence so few replies.

This morning I typed "victims of fraud" into the Google search form and spent the next few hours reading how lives can be wrecked so easily because peoples trust was abused by people who were in a position of power over other people's assets. Document and signature forgery is so easy these days.

One story in particular is worth reading. Carlton John Hagmaier or Carl J. Hagmaier was an insurance salesman who couldn't help using his clients funds to fund his expensive lifestyle. Naturally it required signature forgery and a few other tricks to hide it for a few years but the weight of complaints eventually exposed him.

The Facts of the Matter: The personal story behind the experience.
http://www.guardianagentfraud.com/

Ironically, Hagmaier later said about an associate and once best friend, "I do have one regret, and that is that I ever trusted Rob Rossi."

It would be nice if all of us could be insured against financial losses incurred through fraud by trusted friends, family, associates and businesses. I wonder how much the premiums would be and whether there would be a market for it? I don't think it would catch on because it would be too easy for the insurance companies to not pay out claiming that not enough due care or precautions were taken. So we are left to fend for ourselves and take all the risks.

Despite the dangers of associating with known criminal offenders people continually do it. Take Rene Rivkin's one-time association with late night teleshopping guru Kevin Trudeau. According to a Media Watch report Trudeau had served two years in jail in the USA for credit card fraud. He had another conviction for larceny and two more run-ins with American authorities. But it was of no concern to Rene Rivkin:

"I am of course aware of his criminal record...I am also, and have always been, acutely aware of Mr Trudeau's past...Suffice to say I remain of the very strong view that people with criminal records are capable of rehabilitation. (Rivkin statement to Media Watch 23/6/00)"

From: Media Watch
An even Closer Look at Kevin Trudeau
http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s198163.htm

Yes, it seems that caution is sometimes thrown to the wind when a quick buck can be made.

Everyday we have to evaluate the level of due diligence required on a purchase or investment so what basic precautions can we take? I found a great document from a U.S. website that gives an overview of the most commonly perpetrated fraudulent schemes and practices. There are too many to list here but you can find the doc at:

Common Fraud Crimes and Tips for Reducing Revictimization
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/publications/infores/fraud/psvf/appendd.htm

The document also gives many useful Consumer Protection Tips to guard against becoming a victim of fraud. I'll post some of the main ones in a separate post. Please consider these when looking at deals on Caveat Emptor. Thoroughly check the credentials of the poster and use an independent solicitor to check the contracts.

Regards, Mike

 

[Mike]

Consumer Protection Tips

Do background checks on individuals, companies or representatives through the relevent licensing or regulatory agencies to verify their legitimacy.

Request and check several references, even if the referral is made by a friend, family member, or business associate.

Demand that all correspondence and contracts be in writing, and have all paperwork reviewed by an attorney.

Do not provide any personal information--such as social security number, credit card number, date of birth, or address--until you have thoroughly checked out the individual or business.

Do not pay advance fees unless absolutely necessary, and if requested, pay only the minimum amount possible.

Charge advance fees to credit cards so that if the service or product is never delivered, the charge can be disputed, canceled, or reversed.

Choose to make weekly or monthly payments directly to the spa, gym, health club, or other such business.

Verify that the contractor is insured. Ask to see the policy, or ask for the phone number of the insurance company.

Insist on a complete, written contract that specifies the work to be performed, the materials to be used, and any procedures for amending the contract to authorize other repair work that may be needed to complete the originally contracted job.

Arrange to pay for the work in increments that coincide with the stages of repair or construction (called construction draws). Arrange for the final payment of work to be made only after the work is completed and inspected. Do not pay a deposit unless necessary, and then only advance enough money to allow for the purchase of initial supplies.

Review all bills, and where necessary, call the supplier to ensure that prices have not been inflated.

Visually inspect materials to ensure that the materials billed for have in fact been purchased.

Ask national and local credit reporting agencies to flag the credit file with a block that prevents any new credit applications from being approved without the consumer's approval.

If identify theft has occurred, change personal identifiers on credit card accounts and credit files so that when a fraudulent application for credit or request for authorization for purchase is received, fraudulent activity will be easily traced.

Routinely review credit files, checking, savings, and investment statements so that any fraudulent activity can be seen immediately or as soon as possible after it takes place.

Don't sign anything until the details of the contract, terms of payment, and covered benefits are fully understood.

Suspect any unsolicited calls about investments.

Invest only in businesses or investment opportunities of which you have some knowledge.
Avoid any business you know nothing about, no matter how enticing the sales pitch.

Beware of testimonials for quick or large profits. These are often manufactured by the fraud perpetrator.

Do not be pressured by "you must act today" sales pitches. If a company or individual will not give consumers time to check out the investment, it is almost always a scam.

Always be suspicious of unsolicited offers.

Never send payments to post office boxes.

Be wary of these phrases or words: free, selected, chosen, entitled, risk-free, life-time membership, approved, instant winner, offer for a limited time only, low-risk, special, bonus, sweepstakes, money-back guarantee, etc.

A consumer should never give out personal or financial information over the phone unless he or she has done business with the company in the past and was satisfied, the consumer initiated the call to order something, or the company has been checked through state or local consumer affairs offices, the office of the state attorney general, or the Better Business Bureau.

 

[Mike]

15.Real Estate Fraud

Real estate frauds are often earmarked by high-pressure sales tactics that include half-truths, lies, and misrepresentations. Prospective targets receive false information regarding land, locations, value, profitability, validity of title, or the scope, nature, or quality of needed improvements. In warmer climates, real estate frauds are frequently targeted at individuals looking for vacation and retirement properties--though those properties may be underwater or isolated in rural areas without ready access to water and power. In other real estate frauds, potential investors are hooked by claims of valuable mining and mineral rights that do not exist. Real estate investors are also defrauded when they enter into residential and commercial development projects. Money is put up, but the development is never built or goes belly up as the fraud artist walks away with investors' money.

A common ploy used by some real estate fraud perpetrators is to sell bogus time-shares, whereby fraudulent operators place entry blanks and boxes in stores or restaurants offering customers a chance to win a free weekend getaway. After filling out the entry form, the prospective target receives a phone call to schedule an appointment for a high-pressure "sales presentation" or is asked to send in a deposit to hold his scheduled weekend. The deposit is guaranteed to be returned when the targeted victim checks in. Most often, when money is required as part of the free package, the fraud perpetrator absconds with the money, and when the victim shows up for his or her free weekend, the real estate representative pretends to know nothing of the victim's reservation. In other cases, the purchase of a time-share does in fact provide the victim with opportunities to use the property; however, numerous restrictions make it almost impossible to use the time-share as anticipated. For example, the time-share property may be available to the victim only during the off-season.
Today, real estate fraud is big business, and projects of all descriptions and sizes have sprung up throughout the nation.

Commonly Targeted Victims

Retirees looking for retirement or second home sites, and middle-class families seeking vacation homes or time-share properties
Individuals or businesses looking to purchase commercial real estate
Individuals or businesses looking for income from investments in residential or commercial development projects

Consumer Protection Tips

No matter how slick and glossy the brochures and videos are, never invest in property sight unseen. Insist on visiting the site personally.

Get as much information and documentation as possible, including surveys, inspection certificates, etc. Before signing any contract, the customer should have the materials reviewed by his or her own attorney, preferably one who is well versed in real estate law.

Complete an extensive background check on the company and the principals offering the property or real estate investment opportunity. Check with the real estate commission in the company's home state and the state where the property is being offered to determine whether the company meets all licensing requirements and whether there are any pending disciplinary or civil actions against the company or any of its principals.

After verifying the company and its principals, require that all down payments and other transaction-related funds be placed in an escrow account prior to closing.

Ask for a complete list of investors or clients. Contact several of them to obtain references.

Find out about the contract cancellation laws of the state where the property is located. Most states require the seller to release the purchaser from a contract within a specified period after the signing of a contract--normally, anywhere from three to 15 days.

 

[asy]

Well, I have been reading this thread (and parent thread) and they are great...

I feel a ramble coming on, so for those who are short of concentration stop now.. hehe

Your posts with advice have been great, Mike, but I wonder whether people really want to hear it.

I also wonder what someone has to have done to qualify as 'untouchable'?

Does the 'crime' have to be in the same industry? For instance, if I am investing in property, but someone that I want to do business with has charges against them for an unrelated crime, would this stop me from dealing with them? Would it stop you?

It's interesting, there is a case I have in mind. I am always facinated by people who are considering working with this person and their analysis for the continuation of the working relationship even when asked whether they have done their due dilligence.

I wonder whether it's criminal in one area - criminal in all... OR, as most people I have discussed this issue with say, "Well, it doesn't relate to property investing, so it doesn't matter, but I don't completely trust this person, but if they can make me money why not...?"

Now, I'm not saying that they shouldn't be dealt with, or that they don't have an exceptional property investment record, but I just find it relates to Mike's previous posts.

I grant, there was never any fraud, deception or finance related charges that I am aware of, (nor has there ever been a hint of such). I guess I am just wondering what constitues a no-go?

So, there's the question... What constitutes a no-go?

What would make you NOT deal with a person/company?

asy

 

[Mike]

Hi Asy,

There is definitely a moral dilemma in choosing how pure and untainted a person must be before you associate with them.

My personal opinion is that it depends on the type of relationship and whether the relationship makes you vulnerable to fraud.

To complicate matters if a criminal has not offended for 10 years does that make the person a pure and wholesome person or are they tainted for life? That is a value judgement we all have to make. I know for a fact that society will never forgive a perpetrator of some serious crimes.

On the other hand, you are just as likely to be defrauded by a first-time offender so their squeaky clean background is irrelevant.

Therefore, my view is, can the deal be done and is my money protected if my associate does a runner? If I can't guarantee the security of my cash investment and the credibility of the associate is questionable then I wouldn't risk it. But if the deal was structured in such a way that most of my funds are protected and I thought there was a good chance that my associate wouldn't skip then I would go ahead with the deal. If this was a one-time association, yes, I would risk it as long as adequate precautions were taken.

Regards, Mike

 

[Kristine..]

Surprise! It's me again!

I'm having a posting sort of day!

But for this post, I shall adopt a nom de plume.

Little Red Riding Hood. For obvious reasons. My grandmother, of whom I was very fond although she had no material value, was eaten by a wolf. Who then, in a somewhat kinky manner, put on her clothes and her bonnet, and got into her bed to await my arrival. I was a juicy little girl, full of trust and love and carrying a basket of lovely things for my old, frail, and helpless grandmother to eat.

You all know the somewhat naive questions I then put to the transvestite wearing the frilly cap. In fact, I was very diligent in my due diligence, questioning the fur, the ears, and finally, the teeth.

At that point, outraged, the wolf leaped from the bed, intent upon ravaging the contents of my basket and then eating me.

Luckily that nice woodsman from Consumer Affairs was just passing by and heard my shrieks, and the woodsman had a very sharp legal axe with which he managed to despatch the wolf in a very decisive manner. However, the wolf protection society had the death penalty commuted to 2 years which, with remissions for good behaviour, meant the wolf was out and about in about three months.

Now, what about if the wolf, after a period of time, was seen about town doing something else. eg had opened a laundry business. Which required people who didn't know of the wolf's tendency to cross dress after eating the original owners of the clothes to enter the premises (which were very discrete) and hand over their clothes, and furthermore, to pay the wolf for services rendered.

(No, I wont get sidetracked here with Torts and the Duty of Care)

And the laundry flourished because, when it was all said and done, the wolf sure knew how to starch collars with the best of them. And even though the story started to go around, well, it was obvious to everybody that the wolf had reformed, no longer ate people, didn't cross dress even when the curtains were closed, and had joined the Save the Bilby committee, so really why not just get on with it?

And besides, the laundry had cheap rates, so really the townsfolk were saving money and supporting that nice wolf at the same time.

But remember, I'm Little Red Riding Hood, and in eating my grandmother, the wolf symbolically ate your grandmother, too.

No amount of starch in the collars is going to change that.

If the wolf had got a low profile job, paid his taxes and kept out of trouble, then maybe we are talking about a reformed and rehabilitated wolf. (Oh, how naughty of me to be judgemental)

But what did he do? He opened a business. He prospered. He put himself in the public eye. He flaunted himself. Nyah nyah a nyah nyah.

Asy, for my money, I would rather dunk my clothes in the river than use the wolf's laundry.

The gentleman to whom I believe you allude, no matter his intelligence, his charisma, his ability to make money (???), is nothing short of a criminal of the worst kind.

Because, how many grandmothers are we talking about? More than one a week? This is serial grandmother eating of the most excessive kind.

But leaving aside his pathetic protestations of reform, let us examine more closely the 'deals' he purports to offer forum members.

Does he put up any money? Is his company a proprietary limited? How much capital is in the company? Where are his own personal assets? Who really takes the risk of the venture?

If I may divert a little here (readers who have lost interest may now be excused), since grandma died I have taken a particular interest in human nature.

And I learnt that there are only two emotions, love and fear. The English language has 186 words for emotions, but there are only actually two emotions.

So what does the wolf enjoy doing? Creating fear. It's not about hunger, money, or sex, although society may punish him for cannibalism, fraud or perversity. It is that he enjoys creating fear. And this makes our wolf very, very dangerous for the rest of his natural life.

So I'm sorry, folks, but you know, society can't 'do' anything about the wolf until he offends again, and he knows this. He could quote you the law verbatim. And he may never eat another grandmother.

But then again, he might.

Thanks for your contribution

Little Red Riding Hood.

 

[always_learning]

Originally posted by asy
So, there's the question... What constitutes a no-go?

In the case of serious crimes, the best I can come up with is if by your actions in dealing with with this person would increase the chance of any reoffendence even by 0.01% => this constitues no-go! Is dealing with this person potentially placing your family directly or anyone in society for that matter at a higher risk?

 

[asy]

Kristine...

Exceptional post...

Have you thought of writing novels?

I shed a tear for your grandmother, and mine... for she, too was taken by a wolf.

asy

 

[Mike]

Although Kristine may be commenting on a specific case the point of my original post is broader. The point is that it is all to easy to be enamoured of like-minded people or to take people at face value. Here is an example of the difference between the image and the reality:

A former journalist, Tariq Aziz was good with words, and knew a telling phrase. To those unfamiliar with the murderous regime he represented, he could seem reasonable, witty, even charming.

In projecting this image, he was aided by his wide knowledge of English literature, from Shakespeare and Milton to the books of Mario Puzo, author of The Godfather, which were found in the library of his spacious mansion after the regime collapsed.

But many Iraqis found nothing alluring about a man who made his life's work the defence of a government that killed tens of thousands of its own citizens, and who appeared able to tell the most egregious lies without any outward sign of unease.

In the October interview, he compared Saddam to Jesus Christ, saying the Iraqi leader had shown the same sort of forgiveness that Jesus at his Crucifixion showed toward the Roman centurions when, the previous day, the Iraqi leader freed tens of thousands of prisoners from jail. That step was taken, as it transpired, to create a new pool of conscripts for Iraq's armed forces, and to counter George Bush's descriptions of Saddam as a murdering tyrant. Many of the men released were rounded up again and returned to prison.

[Source: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/25/1050777406275.html ]

Now, let's say, to keep the example going, that after the war Tariq Aziz melted back into the general population and with the help of some forged documents was able to restart life as an insurance salesman. Through his innate charm he develops professional contacts who are so impressed by him they begin promoting him to their own client base via their newsletter. [I found an example in Dale's newsletter which I will use hypothetically here for the purposes of illustration.]

New Friend

As you know by now, we’re always looking for good, qualified professional in various fields who can help us to look after you. Recently, we were introduced to a new insurance broker who looks after:

* Life Insurance
* Trauma Cover
* Income Protection Insurance

[Tariq] seems like a genuine bloke and is keen to do the right thing. Having spent a very long time in the industry he’s obviously got both the knowledge and the integrity to look after you.

So, if you need insurance (don’t we all!) and are looking for a new contact please let us know and we’ll put you in touch.

So, bit by bit, Tariq Aziz has built up a respectable facade and fooled everybody.

So my point is that it is quite easy for people to appear normal, respectable and with loads of integrity. So I caution everyone on the forum not to take like-minded people at face value if you are thinking of investing with them. Do your due diligence on them thoroughly. If they are genuine they should not feel slighted by your reasonable request to do background checks.

Regards, Mike

PS For a true-life example, read the heart-breaking story of Kristine's apprentice at:
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6862