Don't have to lift a finger

I think you will find Dazz has borrowed against the building maybe 80% or more and the rest is borrowed against other property which is why the reference to "Xcol to the hilt".

There are commercial property lenders out there that will lend upto 80%-90% you find them advertising in the business for sale section of the paper, little ads, lots of text not much else you miss them if not looking.

Daz can elaborate if he wants to.

Thanks for the post Daz nice to get an insight into the commercial property arena.

Cheers
quoll
 
I think you will find Dazz has borrowed against the building maybe 80% or more and the rest is borrowed against other property which is why the reference to "Xcol to the hilt".

There are commercial property lenders out there that will lend upto 80%-90% you find them advertising in the business for sale section of the paper, little ads, lots of text not much else you miss them if not looking.

Daz can elaborate if he wants to.

Thanks for the post Daz nice to get an insight into the commercial property arena.

Cheers
quoll
Quoll,

thank you very much for your feedback. This is the first response I have had that has actually included any detail of any value. Dazzling, don't get me wrong, I very much want to "believe", but without the details, it is just a good yarn and of no real value to me.

Would welcome hearing from you Dazzling with some details that may guide me (and perhaps others) to understand how these deals can be done in the way you outline, which I am eager to undertake as well.

THANSK!
 
Would welcome hearing from you Dazzling with some details that may guide me (and perhaps others) to understand how these deals can be done in the way you outline, which I am eager to undertake as well.

THANSK!

Didn't Dazzling have a story on him in API last year? Maybe there were details there? I might be mistaken though...

GSJ
 
Quoll,

thank you very much for your feedback. This is the first response I have had that has actually included any detail of any value. Dazzling, don't get me wrong, I very much want to "believe", but without the details, it is just a good yarn and of no real value to me.

Sorry KlausB,

You've asked twice now, but I'm not prepared to go any deeper. Your "belief" or lack thereof is of no concern to me. I ain't got nothing to sell. What you've asked is of no real value to me either....so there you have it, we're even Stevens.

The three posts in this thread, along with my other posts from other previous ventures are about as detailed as you're going to get from me. Loose lips sink ships and all of that....I am constantly castigated from my better half over disclosing too many details of our deals.

If it ain't enough, then I'm afraid the info shall have to be relegated to your yarn category, but I'm not prepared to go any further.

What I've outlined is way way way way more than anyone ever gave me to get started. Thinking back to the elderly gentlemen who I asked face to face for details at the start of our journey, I can only shudder at their response. If I typed it here, ol Geoffw would probably suspend me.

If you are really hungry for knowledge, then you are going to have to take far more drastic action than asking me on a website. That doesn't show any commitment on your part. I'm a dreadful coach and lost my spoon ages ago.

Dip your toe in your local water and see how you swim. You cannot possibly be an expert swimmer by standing by the side of the pool and asking for exact details on what it is like in the pool.

There's only two things you need to do ;

1. Start
2. Keep going - no matter what - until you get where you want to be.


I reckon that goes for everyone else as well. I've lived by this philosophy for quite a while now. :)
 
Congratulations Dazzling (and Mrs Dazzling),

I also read your other thread where you missed out on the property you had your eyes on.

Dazzling, I find your whole situation quiet amazing!! I really enjoy reading your posts - thanks for the information you freely give. I'm still swimming in the Resi pool, but am reading as much as I can about Com, and rekon I will jump soon!!!!

Regards Jason.
 
Daz

You've shared heaps in your contributions so far, and it is very much appreciated.

You haven't typed in any names which can get you into trouble, so it's all good.

(Footnote for others. We do try to be careful of adverse comments where people or companies are named. Those sort of posts can get us into trouble- they have, at times, caused us trouble in the past.)

You've gone down a path which goes well beyond what any of us have been down. You've played to rules which haven't worked for some of us. X-coll (cross collaterisation) was a huge headache for me, even though it helped me get down a path I would not have been able to go down otherwise.

For many of us, we have learnt from the experiences of everybody else. We all know, and are all familiar with, residential property. And we all know about dealing with banks (if not personally, from posts in the forum).

The shared wisdom of many people becomes the common knowledge of many more people.

And then people come along who have succeeded, far beyond what most of us could ever do, following a different procedure, and, at times, breaking all the rules which we have been constrained by.

Daz, you provide a sparkling (or even dazzling) inspiration for anybody who wants to succeed.

But it is a "road less travelled". There's not so much knowledge out there. Daz, you've explored an unknown area, and struck gold. My brother in law has struck a lot of gold as well- slightly later in life, I suspect, but with a pretty large nugget by now. There is more gold to find, I'm sure.

But, the people who are not careful may find themselves lost down a dead end. The road less travelled has its own problems. There's not as many maps. There's probably more dead ends.

And there's certainly not the amount of publicly available knowledge as there is in this forum.

Not yet anyway.
 
Quoll,

thank you very much for your feedback. This is the first response I have had that has actually included any detail of any value. Dazzling, don't get me wrong, I very much want to "believe", but without the details, it is just a good yarn and of no real value to me.

Klaus,

There are quite a lot of details that have been shared in Dazzling's posts (have you read them all?) as Geoff says. I don't think knowing the numbers behind the deals is going to help, they're just really big! (eg. MM instead of K's). Understanding the basic investing principles/ideas/strategies behind the deals is more important. We're discussing smaller deals, ie. involving smaller numbers, with the same basic principles involved in this thread here, which you should read:

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32060

GSJ
 
hi all
I have read with interest dazzlings answers and I only have one thing to say.
I read alot of posts from alot of people and it seems to me that alot of people seem to want the teacher to explain every little detail instaed of taking the information and trying to work it out for themself.
these forums are a wealth of information but thats all they,
they are information
the number in a deal are the number for the dealer
and I would be very supprised if most of them every get to a board.
in answer to can you get above 85% on a comm yes you can.
comm lending or comm borrowing is not done as resi lending
it is done on a case by case basis and for me the information of anyone on a board as to how they fund or the numbers are not the main point.
I think any information from a dazzling of this world or for that matter coasty mike or any one is information that is given free so instaed of asking are you for real how did you get to this or how did you get a lender to give you that you need to learn that its out there and ask your funder.
and in comm suncorp go between 56% lend in some cases up to 75% in others and it depends how you present and who you know
thats just fact.
for me I hope you do well dazzling and hope to pop over one day and have a drink.
I think there seem to be alot of people that are trying to look at the teacher instead of looking at the lessen.
but that just me.
 
Hi all

I admire any property investor whatever type of investment they succeed in.

I also feel that wanting to know specifically each deal and numbers etc on an open forum or even privately unless willingly shared is probably stretching it.

My thing has not been to know persons personal deals but the traps one can get themselves into.
This to my mind is far more valuable,a persons experience and indicating what not to sign into.

After all if you buy a Commercial property it is not like buying a pair of shoes if the legal contracts have some traps you are not aware of or have missed or your solicitor doesn't do the right thing by you it can set you back years.

This type of sharing would be invaluable to my mind. (Dazzling did say he had to go through the contract with a scalpel so to speak).

Be it a
Resi Contract
Industrial
Commercial
Retail

Congratulations Dazzling


Cheers
BC
 
I feel the opposite. These sorts of posts make good stories that are enjoyed by a certain type of forumite. However, they contain virtually no info that's useful to a prospective comm IP investor.

He could tell us -

  • high level info about the loans - LVRs, Interest Rates, other loan conditions.
  • Why it's such a good deal.
  • Compare it to other comm props he's looked at & why he chose this one
  • Tell us what the rent is indexed to, rentals reviews, etc
  • When it will be c/f +ve, when will it let me retire.
  • The risks of this particular prop.
  • Tenent mix.
  • Where this comm IP is in the cycle - is this the peak or will there be growth above rental income?
  • What growth this IP is expected to have & why
  • Compare it to LPTs that have higher nett yields & arguably lower risk.
  • How it will impact the rest of the portfolio.

All without using the actual figues or personal details.
 
He could tell us -

  • high level info about the loans - LVRs, Interest Rates, other loan conditions.
  • Why it's such a good deal.
  • Compare it to other comm props he's looked at & why he chose this one
  • Tell us what the rent is indexed to, rentals reviews, etc
  • When it will be c/f +ve, when will it let me retire.
  • The risks of this particular prop.
  • Tenent mix.
  • Where this comm IP is in the cycle - is this the peak or will there be growth above rental income?
  • What growth this IP is expected to have & why
  • Compare it to LPTs that have higher nett yields & arguably lower risk.
  • How it will impact the rest of the portfolio.

All without using the actual figues or personal details.

Hi keithj,

Good points and questions. Not sure why no-one has directly asked this, until now. Maybe because the deal itself is so, so far away from what people here can realistically do...Would be interested in some of the answers to understand the decision making/evaluating process in such comm. deals. This could be applied to the <$500k deals we're talking about in another thread.

Thanks,

GSJ
 
Dazzling, thanks for your response. I can but only ask and it is fair to me that you have opted to decline with more details. It is a pity however as I hear lots of great yarns from investors and all too often not enough detail for it to actually be of any value. I also get skeptical when I hear of 117% borrowings without at least a little more info to put this into context.

I plunged into property some time ago, including property development. I have not yet plunged into commercial property albeit have had a crack at it without success at this stage.

I like what it is you seem to be doing, but unfortunately, the forum info is of little value to me. Guess I will just have to search elsewhere.

Again, thanks for stating your position.
 
Keithj,

That's just scratching the surface what you have listed there. There is a massive amount of due diligence that needs to be done before finally signing an unconditional cash contract to buy a property that is multiples in value of most investor's entire portfolio's. Numbers count, and big numbers count even more.

Because this is a numbers game we play, I only look at the numbers. Emotion, general principles, over-arching philosophies, common wisdoms and other fluffy feelings don't come into it.

You ask about LVR's....well it's simply a number. No go.
You ask about interest rates....well it's simply a number. No go.
You ask about other loan conditions....well the important conditions involve a number. No go.
You ask about why it's a good deal....as stated above, simply because of the numbers. No go.
You ask about comparing it to other deals and why I chose this one....as stated above, simply comparing numbers. No go.

The rent is indexed to a floor area - a number. The indexation rate is a number. The future rent escalation rate is a number. The rental review date mechanism is simply a number.

The cashflow amount of the deal I have already foolishly divulged, and been castigated severely for...but oh well. That too was just a number.

The risks of this project has been evaluated through my scaling mechanism and numbers assigned accordingly, pumped through my risk matrix and a number popped out. Viola.

The tenant mix I have already divulged. It was a number. Tenant quality wasn't a number, so I can confirm it was very good. I have however already said they are bigger than Ben-Hur. I also stated lease length - which was also just a number.

Where are we in the cycle, well the cycle is described by a certain number of years, and we are a certain number of years into it. I've divulged this already in another thread. Both are numbers.

What growth is this expected to have ?? Well it all boils down to either a number or a range of numbers. Or would you prefer good or very good. It means nothing without a number.

LPT's - dunno, too busy bashing away doing my thing to worry about them just yet....not enough time in the day to concentrate on them as well. When I get big enough, hope to start my own up, and then get people like you Keithj to buy into my own LPT at highly inflated retail prices, when I've picked them up at vastly reduced wholeslae prices. At that stage, I might show you some numbers. :)

How will it impact the rest of my portfolio. It'll impact it on both an LVR, cashflow and future growth level - all of which can only be described by numbers.


As I've stated many times before, this game we play is simply a big numbers game. Without the numbers, or introducing some fairy tale numbers, the whole thing is a sham. 43% it's a winner. 5% it's a dud. Plucking numbers out of the air to explain an over-riding principle just makes a mockery of the whole exercise.

We have a blank standard format we use to assess a property. It's a huge big list with a blank in one column where we simply fill in the numbers. Without the numbers, the whole thing is a waste of time from an investment decision p.o.v. Now simply discussing executed deals on an open internet forum with the intent of simply having a chat, whoa back - that's a whole different ball of wax.


Keithj, sorry you didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling about my humble story. Happy for you to elaborate though on your investment journey.

I get the feeling everyone wants more numbers and to be led by the nose every step of the way. This ain't gonna happen.

I'd suggest you buy one of two CIP's and plop down the deal on an open forum and let everyone else tear it to shreds and see how you go. It may be an interesting exercise, and a tad more confronting than sitting on the sidelines.

Enough's enough, I'm going to bug out of here and go play with the kids.
 
He could tell us -

high level info about the loans - LVRs, Interest Rates, other loan conditions.

Hi Keith,

If you have any queries about commercial finance I'd be happy to answer them, writing these loans is how I feed my family. I can tell you upfront though that for larger deals everything is negotiable and is heavily dependent on the strength of the property and borrower.

I would also like to add that this forum is lucky to have someone like Dazzling posting so often. Generally people doing larger deals have no interest in telling anyone else about them.

Regards
Alistair
 
I think this might have been covered before.

What would be a decent first area to investigate in the commercial arena for a first time investor.

Something that would prove to be a good stepping stone. Maybe one area is just a better place to start than another? For example you would have to suggest residential real estate as a great place to start for anyone interested in investing as it's so forgiving of mistakes.

I don't want any more vanilla buy n hope resi properties, have been considering developing, but also commercial property for the future. I really like the passive part of Dazzling's scenario :)
 
I think this might have been covered before.

What would be a decent first area to investigate in the commercial arena for a first time investor.

Something that would prove to be a good stepping stone. Maybe one area is just a better place to start than another? For example you would have to suggest residential real estate as a great place to start for anyone interested in investing as it's so forgiving of mistakes.

I don't want any more vanilla buy n hope resi properties, have been considering developing, but also commercial property for the future. I really like the passive part of Dazzling's scenario :)

Hi Andrew,

I would suggest that a great starting point for someone wanting to enter the CIP realm would be either retail or strata office suites. Both have a reasonably low entry point and provided they are well located usually don't have too much problem with vacancy.

I wouldn't advise going industrial or bulky goods as a CIP virgin, I think this sector takes a little more nous and stomach.

CIP is totally different to resi, and it is a real eye opener once you get into it, but I totally love it and would buy CIP over resi any day....but am continuing along the resi road as well for the sake of balance in the portfolio.

Of course, this is only my opinion and I could be wrong :)
 
If you have any queries about commercial finance I'd be happy to answer them, writing these loans is how I feed my family. I can tell you upfront though that for larger deals everything is negotiable and is heavily dependent on the strength of the property and borrower.
Hi Alistair,

Thanks for the offer.
As an example.....
About 6 years ago I was interested in a retail strip - 13 shops zoned LMR fronting a v. pleasant suburb square. Good location 10km from Bris CBD. It yielded 13.5%, with one shop vacant. The tenants were nothing special, all small local business. They wanted $1.75M. The best finance I could find then was 65% LVR. I couldn't quite stretch to get the deposit together.

What sort of a deal could you offer me if I find a deal like that today ?

Cheers

Keith
 
Hi Keith,

You can go up to 85% LVR in capital cities at reasonable rates, servicability requirements are pretty strict at this level however. If you can handle 75% LVR you have a much wider range of options and rates would be substantially better, sometimes you can stretch these out to 80%, but its difficult and you'd have to be in a very strong financial position for it to go through.

At 65% if there is a good lease and tennant you can lend without giving guarentees (non recourse). A lot of Chris Lang's clients use non recourse loans.

Regards
Alistair
 
Cashflow contigencies for mitigating vacancy risk are IMHO the most important strategy (as we all know Comm/Ind vacancy rates are on average far higher than residential property)

Whilst I have not traded through a recession (I was in primary school the last time one occured) I have seen the effect on comm/ind property holdings during a recession on my family (who did have the benefit of what I mention below)

I worry that without diversification (either multiple buildings or tenants) or significant available equity (to meet interest repayments during vacancy) any downturn in the economy and resulting decreased demand for these comm/ind properties will leave the sector hurting - and a lot of small investors burnt.

This isnt residential property, you cant always get another tenant, even by lowering your rent by 10, 50, even hundreds of dollars a week sometimes because of cylical/structural changes in demand.

Yield on purchase price atm is at levels Ive never seen before - comm/ind is selling at 6% gross yields (now whilst we here are not suggesting taking deals like that - it shows the competition that is out there)

Even yields at current construction costs arent looking all that attractive.
 
You can go up to 85% LVR in capital cities at reasonable rates, servicability requirements are pretty strict at this level however. If you can handle 75% LVR you have a much wider range of options and rates would be substantially better, sometimes you can stretch these out to 80%, but its difficult and you'd have to be in a very strong financial position for it to go through.
Thanks for that. Can you give an indication of current rates at those LVRs.

What is servicability criteria like ? Do they accept 100% of nett rental income ? Do they do equity lending - ie a standalone loan based on income solely for the CIP - how strong does the tenant/lease have to be ?

And presumably they lend anythng from $100K - $100M+.

cheers Keith
 
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