Eye of the Storm

There's a few commentators & posters here suggesting we're in the eye of the storm.

Various macro indicators have shown tentative signs of improvement, and anecdotally stocks & house prices are rising.

We appear to have survived the banking/financial crisis. So what's going to be the catalyst for the expected 2nd leg down ?

Is it going to be known known - like unemployment rising ?
Or an unknown unknown ?
Or something else ?
 
So what's going to be the catalyst for the expected 2nd leg down ?

?


Hopefully there won't be a second leg down, but if there is a trigger for the next bust I'll punt that it has something to do with China. Maybe a realisation that China is in a bubble too, or a China housing bust, or something to do with a bank.

I'm trying to work out what they are doing with all the commodities they're buying, what their intentions are, and why they wouldn't simply hold off and let the commodity market crash first.



Meanwhile back at the ranch, the Chinese coal mining company Shenhua has started buying up farms on the Breeza Plain not far from me. I don't get this at all. Buggered if I do. The state government gets 300 million to allow a Chinese company to explore for coal, and now they are buying up the farms. This is free trade gone mad, yet in a free trade agreement they want agriculture excluded..!! Don't feel sorry for the farmers, the prices offered are tripple the market rates. How does this help Australia besides a one off payment and coal royalties..??

There will be a lot more news about this shortly. Just wait and see.

See ya's.
 
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Rising inflation.
Higher interest rates.
Unemployment.

With all the $$$ being pumped into economies around the world, the crunch is being postponed.
Marg
 
I like some upside on values but what I have witnessed at auctions recently can only be described as a stampede. I'm struggling to remember the last time I've seen 5 genuine bidders at 1.5m+ r/e. I am actually thinking of selling my ppor as I can't believe it's sustainable, but then again I thought it may have been flat this year.
How wrong I was
pieman
 
Based on what I've experienced recently with our business purchase, and becoming more acutely aware of how the banks are thinking these days, I can see small to medium sized businesses suffering due to lack of access to credit and borrowings.

If this continues, and if the Banks continue to be difficult, and if their rates remain high, we are not going to see much growth in commerce and/or jobs.

In fact, if people don't spend as well, we will continue to see a contraction of commerce, losses of more jobs and worsening community sentiment, and probably a lapse back into recession.

People have short memories, so the current perceived improvement is fuelling a bit of an improvement in sentiment and we are seeing some unexpected growth in many areas.

I can see only a very slow crawl of increased values and hopefully steady employment figures.
 
if UE holds - i think the banks need to ease up the credit a little to get things rolling again. if growth can match inflation then i think it'll be a recovery.

but there's the prob - they're all caught up in cash. they all missed the last big share market swing, and now we're in a consolidation phase again, they're all not rushed to liquidate and be cashed up again.

newsflash banks. no credit = no growth = no jobs = no renters = you holding empty houses. we all know the bank doesn't WANT to repo your house, they make 20x it's value by YOU holding it. so what gives?

the asset grab is on. it's started in the US and it'll start here with less success, but some nonetheless. since when has high-end real estate been "risky"...? never. that's all i'm saying, and i'm sure Sunfish probably understands what i'm saying. RE is not, in historical terms, a risky venture. it's not liquid. it's not prone to being a AAA rated home and suddenly not worth the ink value on the deed it's held by. why are the banks working against the country ...?... bit by bit, it's a scinch - mile by mile, takes a while....

i called the eye of the storm about 4? 5? months ago. there's been steady progress since. but the tail of the storm will be worse than the head. always is.

obamarama will witness the move away from the united states dollar as the world reserve currency. maybe i should re-fi with HSBC...
 
There's a few commentators & posters here suggesting we're in the eye of the storm.

Various macro indicators have shown tentative signs of improvement, and anecdotally stocks & house prices are rising.

We appear to have survived the banking/financial crisis. So what's going to be the catalyst for the expected 2nd leg down ?

Is it going to be known known - like unemployment rising ?
Or an unknown unknown ?
Or something else ?

I'm not sure how to answer this.
There are two components a direct (answering your opinion) and an indirect (whats the effect on my investments).

To answer the first:
i dont think there is a high probability of a 2nd leg down. How can we get a 2nd leg down, if the leg is still on the floor. Sure we are seeing potential greenshoots, but greenshoots are just that: indications that things maybe turning for the better. Dont tell me we are going to see another period like November to March (from an economic point of view, not with regards to any asset classes).
Look at the drop in trade figures during this time, look at the freezing of finance. There was a period here that was really scarey. I dont know if anyone watched the latest Warren Buffet interview on cnbc asia (i posted it somewhere in this forum), but he said that there was a brief period where big business was at risk of performing basic business like issuing payrolls through the banks.
From current levels we are not going to see some of the drastic quotes that we saw in recent times, like trade figures down 30-40% in a month (especially as over time these will be from lower bases).

To answer the second:
It will depend on the relationship between actual performance and expected performance. The higher asset classes move in the anticipation of better expected performance, the greater the chance of disappointment if things dont turn out as expected. So many people fail to understand this key point.

All my investment energy is being directed based on the assumption that we are in for a 'L' type recovery (but try to get that 'L' on a slowly upwards moving projectionary, i can't type it here cause there is no symbol, but basically its not flat, just moving up slowly from the bottom).

Why am i investing this way?
Well if it turns out to be a 'v' recovery then i will still do nicely. If it doesnt then my investment strategies are not predicting 'blue sky', and hence there is not much room for disappointment in the market, and hence my investments shouldnt be shot down (at least not from the point at which i purchased the investment).

If i highlight two things for this forum:
1) dont understimate mankinds ability to adapt to his circumstances
2) dont understimate the ability of capitalism to direct its efforts towards making profit
.

These two characteristics have served us well over the centuries, always have always will.

Future profit will probably not come from the sources that generated profit in the near term past, especially if we are in for a time of structural change, but profit will be made, its up to people to research where those profits will come from. Those that successfully identify the profit catalysts will do very nicely, regardless of the times.
 
hi all
not sure about the eye of the storm
for me its the age of cash
they say cash is king well for me thats not true what is true is the ability to get cash and then leverage
I think we are in hold and see mode
is that a good thing
for me no
we have a no movement economy not up or down
this causes lots of problems
first people think we are fine
others won't lend because they think it will get worse
and others think its great as we are not dropping any further
this is the hold pattern
is this the best time to buy
yes if you can get to the ones wanting to sell and you have cash
because lenders have a problem lending in this enviro
or put a structure in place to borrow or lend off it
if you think we were in ahole I think you have missed it by 6 months
are we on our way out
no
can we fall more I think not
so were are we
we are spinning wheels at the moment
we want to get going we just have no idea how to get there or even where to go.
and worried about if we will get there and whats it like.
now isn't that an alice in wonderland and the hare
to be in the eye you need a storm
we don't have a storm that I can see but we have some very big problems
and I think that we have no answers to them anytime soon
we are being choked by credit and this will cause big problems
but its slow so it creeps up on you and you don't feel it until its to late
we have a cronic building industry
we have very little development funding and we have huge problems comming in this area
just a couple oif views
 
Maybe a realisation that China is in a bubble too, or a China housing bust

I think this idea has a lot of merit...

Meanwhile back at the ranch, the Chinese coal mining company Shenhua has started buying up farms on the Breeza Plain not far from me.

Shenhua isn't just a coal miner...

They also own about 20% of China's electricity generation capacity (one of the big four / five coal generators in China - a way of getting their coal to market)

They also are one of the biggest wind farm owners in China.

They also own a large swag of hotels,

They also (used to) own an airline,

They also own (a lot) of railways,

They also (you get the idea).

As a guest of theirs, you get to sleep in a Shenhua hotel, eat at a Shenhua restaurant, travel on a Shenhua train, shop at a Shenhua shop, fly in a Shenhua helicopter etc etc.

This link rather underestimates their size and reach... do not underestimate them!


On the thread topic, I believe the storm will return if / when it is shown that the Emperor in China has no clothes (pardon the analogy!:rolleyes:). There is something distinctly unsustainable about their mix of quasi-market economy and full-on state control that will trip them up at some point in a big way IMO.

I do wonder what will happen to the "China will save us" idea if and when they get their inevitable problems. And I wonder how the rest of us will fare in that event? :eek:

Doesn't stop me from investing though - this type of thing could be decades away!
 
the asset grab is on. it's started in the US and it'll start here with less success, but some nonetheless.

BC what are your latest opinions on the illuminati power/asset grab? it would seem it is all backfiring horribly - a collapse in the USD and the US economy will see them completely sidelined whilst the dawn of the asian century really starts to shine. Or do you see this as part of the process in which they will get a seat at the table to partake in the global currency? they would need to make their move soon
 
per the latest release from RP Data, perhaps ANZ was right and we are headed for the mother of all housing booms.

mabye, but if we are then im out, even with the expense of transaction costs.

not sure if anyone has seen the similarity between this and the US market post the dot.com and Sept11 crisis. A drop in interest rates because of fears of a consumption reduction which lead to a boom in property prices.

Keep a very close eye on increases in supply.
 
mabye, but if we are then im out, even with the expense of transaction costs.

not sure if anyone has seen the similarity between this and the US market post the dot.com and Sept11 crisis. A drop in interest rates because of fears of a consumption reduction which lead to a boom in property prices.

Keep a very close eye on increases in supply.

valid points, but seriously where can any supply come from? govt is hopeless and there is no funding to develop.
 
valid points, but seriously where can any supply come from? govt is hopeless and there is no funding to develop.
Rent increases anyone? :rolleyes:

I hope you're all correct as I've secured funding to do my Mona Vale development and they'd be nicely CF+ on current end market rental appraisals when done. Constrained supply for other would-be developers can only help my personal demand/supply situation upon completion. I don't want a flood of properties competing with mine in 12 months time. :D

But to keith's topic, I think the eye of the storm analogy at the moment is being bandied around due to the US housing market situation. The Sub-prime resets have all flushed out now, but we're just about to experience the ARMs and Alt-As. These aren't sub-prime, but I read a report which showed over a third of them underwater from an equity position due to the recent falls on their property market due to what sub-prime kicked off. If they throw the keys in the mail to their bankers, then its the next big leg down for the US property market. That has all sorts of flow on effects for the global banks which are just holding their heads above water at the moment. Could mean a lot more USD printed by Obama to keep the US alive another year or two.

If you extend that to the global economy then we're skating nicely through the eye of this storm but its just about to get a whole lot messier again soon.

Cheers,
Michael
 
I've also been thinking that with the large volume of resets to come in 2010 and 2011, albeit very little subprime volume, the storm will send some whitewash here with regards credit availability and lending terms/conditions.

As those ARM loans come off the sweetheart rate and if they have LVR's assessed as upside down (quite likely), what you say MichaelW is what I've been thinking for a while.

Whilst our fundamentals are different here from the perspective of no over-supply as in the US (apparently whole new suburbs/estates are being buldozed), we are not entirely loose of their apron strings either.

Although they will bear the brunt of the storm, I expect some rain, or at the very least showers, here also.
 
BC what are your latest opinions on the illuminati power/asset grab? it would seem it is all backfiring horribly - a collapse in the USD and the US economy will see them completely sidelined whilst the dawn of the asian century really starts to shine. Or do you see this as part of the process in which they will get a seat at the table to partake in the global currency? they would need to make their move soon

i still maintain the collapse is engineered - and i'm happy to go on public record about it.

i'd love to start a blog soon with all the "things i see" but time...!

the I are using the american taxpayer as a slave. the american people voted against slave labour with abraham lincoln, so he was shot and the WHOLE country was enslaved. it's peeled over to the UK and the wider EU now as well. oceania we may be, but proles we aint.

devaluing their assets by not allowing borrowing is the reverse of allowing borrowing to increase the value of their assets. it's a play - a test. see how the theory works in real life and then adjust and implement from results.

we're about to see the "adjust" stage - a boom - and then the implementation - a bust. it'll be bigger than this one. which is why i'm keen to get in NOW to take advantage of the wealth shift to real assets and lock my expenses down. accumulate as much as i can and wait for the final breath of the US economy.

i have a great theory as to why the americans do not allow targeted immigration.
 
I think grossreal is right. Noone seems to know what to do. All the so called experts have varied opinions.

The problem is credit, credit, credit. Being creative has become alot more difficult. (Although, RAMS put out an announcement on the 22nd which involved a little loosening of the belt where FHOG were concerned and "gifts" for proof of purchase.)

My friend's husband who is in charge of some large developments in NSW and North Coast with Australand, says they have pulled up stumps and feel the property market is going to get alot worse towards the end of this year and into the next.

I haven't mentioned this to shadow Michael's development, because hey, they are just another Development company with their own "experts". I want them to be wrong.

It is interesting what Chillia has to say about China and I admit I haven't really got my head around that one yet.

We all know ourselves, whether we have property, shares or both, that playing it safe at the moment seems to be the only way to safely steer through any impending disaster. Who can blame the banks for thinking likewise.

Personally, I am proceeding cautiously and hoping I have both eyes open.;)'In saying that, it doesn't mean I would not buy property. If anyone didn't know the meaning of due dillegence before, they certainly should learn it now.

I also mentioned in another post: The USA caught a cold and we only sneezed.:p

Regards Jo
 
I haven't mentioned this to shadow Michael's development, becasue hey, they are just another Devleopment company with their own "experts". I want them to be wrong.
No worries Jo,

I reckon Australand's business model requires them to sell a few of them at completion, and tightening credit markets limit sales. Mine, on the other hand, is predicated on holding 100% on completion and letting them. Completely different model. In fact, the tighter the credit markets get, the better my rental market becomes!! :D

Cheers,
Michael
 
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