Farewell from WW

Hmmmm...I think we have seen this before.

I recall Dazz left for a while and then came back.

Don't know what caused this.....but I am sure they will miss SS and come back at sometime!;)

Seriously people....what could have happened that someone throws their Tiara on the floor.

After all it is only an online forum!:D
 
Hi perp,

But as you still haven't given me an example, I can't be sure what statements were made which you think were unfairly deleted.

My post elicited exactly the type of response I was expecting.

Thank you SIM, Mark ;)

You never get legal threats thrown at you for agreeing with 'guru's', only when you say something against them. If I recall correctly Henry Kaye's organization was pretty good at it as well, until he was closed down by the authorities.

It is very hard to give you an example of a deleted post or posts, because ahh.. um.. they are not here anymore. What evidence did you want??

bye
 
My post elicited exactly the type of response I was expecting.

Thank you SIM, Mark ;)

Hi Bill, for someone quick to point fingers at others making assumptions, you seem to make quite a few yourself. I have no affiliation whatsoever with Navra and haven't had so for a long time. I don't own any Navra funds and have no contact with Steve or any employee of Navra.

In fact, I was banned from his forum for asking some rather prickly questions regarding investment returns. I was hoping for some open and honest discussion, instead I got the ban hammer. Just like that. BAM! Banned for life!

I was merely pointing out the fact that your posts were removed because of threats of legal action, not overzealous mod's, as you assert.
 
Mark,

I was merely pointing out the fact that your posts were removed because of threats of legal action, not overzealous mod's, as you assert.

That is what I said thank you for. That is what I wanted you to say.

bye
 
You never get legal threats thrown at you for agreeing with 'guru's', only when you say something against them. If I recall correctly Henry Kaye's organization was pretty good at it as well, until he was closed down by the authorities.

Yes, we never hid behind the fact that there were legal threats. In my understanding of Australian law, a company (or an individual) has the right to defend themselves against untrue, unfounded, or outright malicious remarks which might materially affect their reputation and ability to reasonably earn an income or might prejudice them unfairly.

Just FYI - we don't automatically delete posts just because we get a threat. There was a case recently where we got an email from a representative of a company who complained (and threatened legal action) about a thread which negatively discussed their company. After reviewing the thread, Ian and I agreed that the post in question was quite legitimate - it explained one person's experience of dealing with a particular company and made no accusations of impropriety or illegal activities or anything else like that. It simply said what had happened (from their point of view) and expressed their dissatisfaction about the outcome.

We told the company representative that they have a right of reply and that we wouldn't be removing it.

However, we did remove some subsequent posts in that thread which did make accusations (without evidence or explanation) of wrong-doing or was misleading in its content to the point where someone reading the thread could possibly get the wrong idea about the company's involvement in some activity.

There was another case where someone linked to articles about a company on a newspaper website and on a Dept of Fair Trading website, describing some court action taken against that company. A representative of that company complained and threatened legal action, but we responded saying that they were merely reporting the news, which we thought was reasonable. As it turned out, the news was actually inaccurate and misleading, and the newspaper and Dept of Fair Trading were both forced to remove the articles from their websites - at which point we agreed that it was reasonable to remove the thread in question, since it was also misleading.

It's never a black-and-white thing. A number of times I've had to instruct moderators not to automatically remove posts which are negative - it really depends on the context and content of the post.

With the situations we're referring to, a post of something like "I invested in product X, and over time period Y, it only showed Z% return, contrary to that promised by the guru", would have been fine. Even a post of "comparing the performance of index X to the performance of this fund over time period Y, you would see that it underperformed by X%", would be acceptable. Indeed, I believe there were several of these made at the time.

What is not acceptable is continuing to post over and over again in a combative manner, "crusading" against a "guru" you've taken a dislike to. This is where opinion starts to become malice - something you will get into trouble in court over. Many of the posts made at that time could easily be taken out of context and made claims that were unsubstantiated (eg: "the fund can never outperform the index", or "you will never make any money out of this fund", etc). To me, that is clearly libellous and the companies in question (there were more than one I recall) had every right to complain, especially when such negative posts were made at just about every opportunity.

If you would like to read some information about defences to an action of defamation, here is a useful summary: http://www.lawhandbook.sa.gov.au/ch14s06.php (click through the next few pages on that site to see examples).
 
As someone who has been banned from other forums (based on legal threats from a guru who will remain nameless) and has now become a permanent lurker instead, may I suggest a solution to your problem Sim?

Many Brokers, Fund Managers, Financial Planners, Real Estate Agents, Guru’s etc use forums like these a marketing platform for their product or service.

The problem these guys have is that a forum isn’t really the right place for shameless self promotion. As other forum users can post comments, point out flaws, highlight risks and generally tell you potential clients all the things they don’t want you to hear. And even worse, clients who have been promised the world based on their spin can post prickly questions and even poor feedback on service and/or returns. Some self promoters handle this well, others freak out and threaten legal action.

Why not just moderate all forms of self promotion.

That is all links in signatures that point towards their website or business, posts that suggest they PM them for more information or other posts that could be deemed as plugs. If the users is a constant repeat offender just ban them.

If people want to advertise on SS why not pay SS a fee instead of being a tight a**, or even charge a small fee to have a link in their sig.

Plus it removes the conflict of interest in posts and gives people more helpful, less loaded information.

As an example if I was a newbie poster and wanted to know where the best place to buy a house was and another poster suggests the suburb XYZ for reasons blah blah blah. That would be more helpful and honest than someone who replies invest in Suburb XYZ for reasons blah blah blah (oh and BTW did you see my sig? yeah I’m a Real Estate Agent located in XYZ why not call me? I can sell you a house :)).

Or “I’m interested in getting rich quick, any suggestions?” , “Why yes you should do X, Y and Z but really you need to speak to an expert, PM me or book into my $5,000 weekend seminar….”

You’d probably lose a few posters as they are only interested in selling people something, but you’d be left with a genuine community of people interested in helping out each other.

As someone who fits into one of those categories of employment where self promotion is beneficial, I’ve posted for many years without a whisper of how to contact me. Probably saved me a few letters from solicitors and some angry phone calls.
 
I am all for a link in the signature.

But I detest brokers who pop up and answer a question merely by asking the poster to call or email him.

I think if you have a expertise and you build a reputation as a person who gives help and information freely then good things come.

But as a person who had a broking business in a previous life I can assure you that return for time spent posting would discourage those who are simply here for the clients.
 
I love dissenting voices who can rationally argue a position. That western liberal democracy allows this dissent is the cornerstone of its strength.

The responses seem to be either: They'll be back or never liked him anyway.


So Winston voiced some politically incorrect comments about migration causing the comfortable bourgeois to reach for their smelling salts.

Dazz had the nerve to drop the niceties and give a glimpse of what the real business world is like- and other members resented either his attitude (or perhaps his financial success).

I see it as the loss of two valuable input sources.

As to patriotism leading to wars- I think thats a valid point.

We will see what transpires.

Well said, no need for me to say that I will miss WW who was never afraid of a prickly question nor the political correctness of the politically correct.

The voice of minority is often louder than the majority who for most part tend to stay complacent rather than be heard.

Regards JO
 
As someone who has been banned from other forums (based on legal threats from a guru who will remain nameless) and has now become a permanent lurker instead, may I suggest a solution to your problem Sim?

Many Brokers, Fund Managers, Financial Planners, Real Estate Agents, Guru’s etc use forums like these a marketing platform for their product or service.
.
Welcome back,Greedy ..willair..
 
Well, you go away for a long weekend and when you come back it's all turned to custard! :(

Quite apart from whatever happened to push these guys over the edge, I suspect the main problem for both of these esteemed gentlemen is that they are operating at a rather different plane to the majority of the rest of us here. The attraction of this place is to chat among like-minded people so as to learn something about property investing. These guys are very knowledgeable and skilled on their respective subjects so I suspect they could feel the information was only flowing one way for quite some time. You can't keep giving, for no reward, without feeling rather frustrated with the whole process.

In addition, arguing with people who have no investing track record, or even bother doing the most basic research, can be equally frustrating. I certainly get short with people who post on nuclear / coal / oil / renewable energy related topics with clearly no idea what they are talking about and no inclination to learn either.

I suspect that's the reason there are relatively few regular posters around here who have actually achieved significant financial freedom. If you're already at that level then hanging around here may not be very worthwhile for you (depending on your charitable inclinations) - you're unlikely to learn much and people will keep asking for advice and then complaining when they don't like the medicine. And it's no doubt more pleasurable to spend some time on your yacht rather than flailing in the mud around here...

So my point is that having people like these two around should be appreciated by the rest of us while they are here. Now most of us, including myself, who value their contribution and are eager to learn from their considerable experience don't get that opportunity and that's a shame...
 
whatever happened to push these guys over the edge, I suspect the main problem for both of these esteemed gentlemen is that they are operating at a rather different plane to the majority of the rest of us here.

maybe WW does not deal with rejection very well...i dont know, i do know he pushes and argues his case like many of us, including myself.

i read his posts as well, im not bullish on property one bit, im a bear currently but if you dummy spit over something so immaterial then you have to wonder if the bloke is just a plain sook and attention seeker which in my opinion he is lapping up this whole thread, seriously!

id bet he comes online every hour to get his thread update....

its just a bloody forum, whats the bloke like in person???

sometimes you gotta go with the punches..by running away from adversity you show cowardice or weakness from where i come from...

maybe those that run away need to spend some time at the school of hard knocks....
 
As someone who has been banned from other forums (based on legal threats from a guru who will remain nameless) and has now become a permanent lurker instead

Hi YG ... didn't think you were into real estate? :D

BTW. you are welcome to post on this forum and "other forums" - just try and avoid becoming lawyer bait :p

That is all links in signatures that point towards their website or business, posts that suggest they PM them for more information or other posts that could be deemed as plugs. If the users is a constant repeat offender just ban them.

This is exactly the process we follow here on Somersoft. In the specific cases being discussed here though, it was a little more complicated because these people were also well established members who did contribute a lot to the forum community - as such we gave them a bit more leeway than we would most business owners.

These days we would probably be a lot more strict about it though - we tend to clamp down on most self-promotion pretty quickly (and our members generally have a pretty low tolerance too).

We do allow links in signatures (within reason) as a compromise for being much more strict about linking to websites in posts. I think in general, the balance is pretty good these days.
 
good memory Sim, you're right I hate real estate, But I love reading the horror stories landlords have about deadbeat renters and SS seems to be a great source. :p

I guess that means you hate to read stories about landlords bragging about their tens of thousands of dollars they make from CG each year! In my experience SS has more such post compared to complaints about tenants.

So every time you get some pleasure about tenant issues there might be atleast 4 to 5 times more pain you experience reading about all the awesome profits people have made from real estate :p

Feel sorry for you...

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
So every time you get some pleasure about tenant issues there might be atleast 4 to 5 times more pain you experience reading about all the awesome profits people have made from real estate :p

Feel sorry for you...

hehe I'm not one of "those" haters, I love investing and making money and I take my hat off to anyone that does. Greed is good.

But for me property is just too over valued here in OZ (great investment 10 years ago, but now...) and I can make better risk adjusted returns trading Options in the sharemarket than I can in Property.

Personally I find it in bad taste when people brag about returns.

but lets not turn this tread into something off topic
 
hehe I'm not one of "those" haters, I love investing and making money and I take my hat off to anyone that does. Greed is good.

People will only invest into something they think will work for them. So if property is working and giving good returns people will continue to invest in it. Otherwise they will take their money elsewhere. It is as simple as that.

But for me property is just too over valued here in OZ (great investment 10 years ago, but now...) and I can make better risk adjusted returns trading Options in the sharemarket than I can in Property.

I guess you must have bought several properties 10yrs ago when it was a great investment back then?

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
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