Financial Advisors/Planners

hi all
an interesting post.
I am a little with nigel about not only financial advicer but any advicer
yes it is good to out source but also check to make sure you are getting the best advice.
just because a person has a letter from somewhere to say they are qualified in this or that doesn't mean there were any good at this or that
its just that they completed the this or that coarse
and could have come out just as stupid as they went in and this you can't control.
It always make me laugh a little that all these people that qualify in this or that have not a clue on earth about anything.
and financial advicers are not the only ones,some brokers and even some bank managers I have met some bank managers that it would make more sense trying to explain financial transactions to the desk.
when you have some one that is going to get an income from a fund and hasn't got a clue then you are going to go into that fund very simple.
my advice is try to understand what you are going into before following anyones advice.
the one disagree I would have with nigel is that
you may not be able to iron and you can wear a wrinkled shirt and
not fix out your car so send to mechanic or you can catch a bus and you can get someone to clean your windows for that matter and if he stuff up you can look out of dirty windows but if the adviser stuffup you can't rebuild your life and for most by the time you find out is to late and for the rest of your life.
I would be happy to sit in a house with a wrinkly shirt and a dirty windowed house with no car and still have my financial situation secure but thats me.
I would outsouce every thing except my financial status or the roof over my head but thats me.
my .002
 
Hi all,

Now here is a can of worms.

How many FP offer advice to clients along the lines of " this is how I made my money" ??

How many FP actually practise what they preach?? (For example, in Glebe's case did his FP sell all his assets and margin into his own fund by 50%) ??

Any financial advice is about the future, an abstract concept in what to expect.
Recommending your own fund is sales, not advice.

bye
 
Hi Gang,

And yet another article from the SMH news site:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/money/pu...1147545261599.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

The following snippet is interesting:

"It is time the financial planning industry stopped rolling out the last remaining argument in favour of commissions - that fees will make advice unaffordable for consumers with small or no investable funds.

The argument would hold more weight if it could be shown that the commission system was already accommodating their needs. But the financial planning industry is set up to service retirees and near-retirees and their large account balances.

Could it be that the real reason for sticking with the commission system is that if consumers had to write out a cheque, they would realise how much they are paying for advice?

If the industry got rid of commissions, consumers would have more confidence the advice is unbiased and in their best interest. They would also be able to assess for themselves whether or not that advice is worth paying for."

Cheers - Gordon
 
Simon said:
I recently visited three planners to see what they could do for me.

The first admitted that I was already more sophisticated than his usual clients and he felt he could add no value.

He semed to be the only one that told me the truth.

Same thing happened to me... Funny that.;)

There are some ethical player in the industry. However, the way the system is set up, I doubt that they are the one who are doing the best financially.

Unfortunately, the way the system is set up drives the behaviour that we all experience.

Cheers,
 
I guess Simon's situation highlights the quality of the postings by some of the regulars on this forum.

I have the same response when talking to both accountants I use, from my solicitor and am regarded as the family investment guru.

Yet I consider myself less knowledgeable than quite a few of you guys (and gals :))
 
House_Keeper said:
Same thing happened to me... Funny that.;)

There are some ethical player in the industry. However, the way the system is set up, I doubt that they are the one who are doing the best financially.

Unfortunately, the way the system is set up drives the behaviour that we all experience.

It is a case of market failure exacerbated by the long-term nature of investing. The seeds of this failure can be found in both consumers and industry.

Though we're supposed to be a service economy (70% of GDP), people are much more comfortable about paying hairdressers, plumbers, car repairers, estate agents and masseurs on a fee for service basis than financial advisers.

In all these cases there was a tangible service rendered. In most cases the customer knows how good it was pretty soon after they get it. And if it isn't much good then they've only lost a few thousand at most, so it's no big deal.

Not so with financial advice, where people have much longer time-horizons and much bigger amounts involved. Also investment relies on all sorts of externalities like asset prices, economic growth, demand assumptions etc. So you don't know if it's successful until 5, 10, 20, 30 years down the track. And even if it sort of works, others might have made two or three times as much despite having identical capital.

The only partial parallel (ie the uncertain results) I can think of is alternative medicine practitioners. However the cost is typically in the $10s to $1000s range, any curative effects should be apparent in a shorter time (a few days to a few months) and if it doesn't work, there's always conventional doctors, hospitals and Medicare. Also we all understand that 'not all cures work for all people' and 'it might do some good' so if their pain is acute there's little to be lost 'giving it a go' and pay the relatively small sum involved knowing it's a chance.

In contrast the average 60 year old retired manager who loses a $500k portfolio to a dodgy scheme isn't going to be in much of a position to get it back unless their working life was miraculously extended 20 years.

Another problem with fee for service is that those who need it most are least willing to pay an upfront fee for advice given all the above uncertainties as to its quality.

One possible treatment of a market failure is to provide a government scheme or subsidy so that people are forced into it. Thus we recognise that the free market can stop needed things getting done so try to modify behaviour through government intervention.

A prime example was the Hawke/Keating Govt's Training Guarantee Levy that forced employers to pay for employee training. Skills were seen as key to industry productivity (and thus national competitiveness) by people like Bill Kelty but bosses were seen as unwilling to do it on their own so a government coercive measure was seen as necessary (until it was scrapped by Howard & Co).

Hence government could either set up a financial advice body (as opposed to a consumer watchdog that puts out press releases that few would read) or give people a subsidy or tax deduction for getting it themselves.

The latter would hand money to the financial planning industry (just like the mollycoddled private health insurance industry which would fold tomorrow if it wasn't for government) but if legislation prohibited commissions as a quid pro quo it could work.

As for the former, Centrelink are already in this field to some extent. However I have some unease about government getting more involved in this area, mainly because if it did give advice recommending certain investments then taxpayers would be exposed to liability (whether legal moral or political) and have to bail investors out.

It is also not free of corrruption and misuse, as in the notorious 'Western Women/Robyn Greenberg' case in WA, where a dodgy adviser stripped divorced women of their savings, using a government welfare service as a front organisation.

Fee for service also won't necessarily eliminate bad judgements by advisers for other reasons.

So I don't know how it can be fixed.

Peter
 
Moving along....asking questions

Hi

OK, do you think we could make a list of appropriate questions to ask financial planners to help us ensure that we get independent and good advice?

Perhaps, we could start with:

why do you recommend these paticular funds as opposed to other market funds?
would this advice stand up to independent scrutiny?

I'm not thinking as clearly this morning as I would like...so, please add to this list so that all our members can have a valuable resource to use.

Dale
 
More specifically

Can you explain to me why you think that your fund ( which has only been around for a short time ) and that you are recommending I invest in , is better that similar types ( eg growth or income - there are other income funds out there ....) of funds already in the market which have longer track records. ( PS you don't need to include the loaded bits I've put in .....)

Can you show me performance comparisons between the recommended funds and funds of the same style ?

ie I want to see what due dilligance you've already done ( you should have already done and if you've done it , it should be available now...)

See Change
 
DaleGG said:
Hi

OK, do you think we could make a list of appropriate questions to ask financial planners to help us ensure that we get independent and good advice?

Perhaps, we could start with:

why do you recommend these paticular funds as opposed to other market funds?
would this advice stand up to independent scrutiny?

I'm not thinking as clearly this morning as I would like...so, please add to this list so that all our members can have a valuable resource to use.

Dale
Dale can I suggest that the most important question is the magic question.

"How will these investments move me closer to my goals?" :)

A 'Managed Funds Salesman' (Financial Advisor) just told my mum that 'retired people don't borrow' after she presented one of my suggestions to him which involved moderate gearing. Meanwhile he has suggested a 3% exposure to shares and a largely cash based pie chart as we stand on the edge of the abyss of strong inflationary pressures.

The understanding of risk is limited by our knowledge and education, for my family it's easy to quantify the risk of investing in shares but much more difficult to quantify the risk of not investing in them.
 
DaleGG said:
Hi

OK, do you think we could make a list of appropriate questions to ask financial planners to help us ensure that we get independent and good advice?

Perhaps, we could start with:

why do you recommend these paticular funds as opposed to other market funds?
would this advice stand up to independent scrutiny?

I'm not thinking as clearly this morning as I would like...so, please add to this list so that all our members can have a valuable resource to use.

Dale
If you were to ask these type of tough questions to financial advisers, you would probably get a blank look, as they are not used to be challenged like that. Even more scary, most of them don't know the answer to the question...:eek:

To me, the question is: have you become wealthy through the type of advice you are providing? If not, then why should I follow your advice then?

The bottom line is, most financial advisors are sales people, not professional investors. :mad:

Cheers,
 
Last edited:
House_Keeper said:
The bottom line is, most financial advisors are sales people, not professional investors. :mad:

Cheers,

You are VERY correct!! I just recently went for a job interview to be an assistant to the financial advisor, and I was completely drilled on sales the entire time. They said to be in this position, you essentially need to be a sales person. It's convincing people who have no idea that they need income insurance, and to move their super into the fund the financial advisor considered the best (I was so unimpressed about the info they wanted me to sell to clients that I didn't go back for the second interview, I thought it would be unethical!!) I'm definitly not saying that people don't need insurance, but these guys didn't seem to care what that insurance meant as long as they were getting a check at the end of the day.

Cheers,
Jen
 
JenD said:
You are VERY correct!! I just recently went for a job interview to be an assistant to the financial advisor, and I was completely drilled on sales the entire time. They said to be in this position, you essentially need to be a sales person. It's convincing people who have no idea that they need income insurance, and to move their super into the fund the financial advisor considered the best (I was so unimpressed about the info they wanted me to sell to clients that I didn't go back for the second interview, I thought it would be unethical!!) I'm definitly not saying that people don't need insurance, but these guys didn't seem to care what that insurance meant as long as they were getting a check at the end of the day.

Cheers,
Jen

Unfortunately, it is the nature of the industry that attracts unethical people. For those with little ethics, there is plenty of money to be made as a financial adviser. Despite all the regulation, it is not easy (or cheap) to take them to court and get your money back once you realised you have been ripped off.

Cheers,
 
Hi all,

Housekeeper, This certainly is the prime question.

To me, the question is: have you become wealthy through the type of advice you are providing? If not, then why should I follow your advice then?

Too many times we see FP offer advice that varies from how they made their money. Many will fail to tell you that the real fortune they have has come from selling investments (ie through their business), then again many may fail to be wealthy anyway, but just tell you how to do it.

bye
 
Andrew_A said:
Dale can I suggest that the most important question is the magic question.

"How will these investments move me closer to my goals?" :)

A 'Managed Funds Salesman' (Financial Advisor) just told my mum that 'retired people don't borrow' after she presented one of my suggestions to him which involved moderate gearing. Meanwhile he has suggested a 3% exposure to shares and a largely cash based pie chart as we stand on the edge of the abyss of strong inflationary pressures.

The understanding of risk is limited by our knowledge and education, for my family it's easy to quantify the risk of investing in shares but much more difficult to quantify the risk of not investing in them.

Andrew you've hit the nail on the head I think. The advice the "salesman" :) has given would probably get him a pass on his compliance exams and get a tick from ASIC as being "appropriate". But will it help your Mum achieve her financial objectives? Maybe, given your Mum's financial situation and the risk profile your Mum has described it is the right textbook answer...but it seems unlikely to make her rich after tax and inflation (if that's the goal and whatever that's quantified to mean for her) :rolleyes:
 
DaleGG said:
Hi

OK, do you think we could make a list of appropriate questions to ask financial planners to help us ensure that we get independent and good advice?

Perhaps, we could start with:

why do you recommend these paticular funds as opposed to other market funds?
would this advice stand up to independent scrutiny?

I'm not thinking as clearly this morning as I would like...so, please add to this list so that all our members can have a valuable resource to use.

Dale

An excellent suggestion Dale!

Perhaps people could start with http://www.goodadvice.com.au/
which is the Financial Planning Association's website supporting their campaign about "Don't ask Dazza!" when you want financial advice. You can request the FPA send you a "Good Advice" pack.

There's also a downloadable brochure which I suggest ppl have a look at.

Now of course as the peak industry body for financial planners the FPA has a barrow to push...namely drumming up business for its members. But surely recommending people get financial advice seems a fairly good thing to do...like suggesting they stop smoking and get more exercise! :D The downloadable brochure makes the important point - "It's okay not to go ahead [with a FP's recommendation] if you don't want to".

But as Andrew has mentioned in another response on this thread, the key strategic question to ask is the one you mentioned at SIG "Will this move me closer to my goals or further away?". Which question of course presumes you know what those goals are... :rolleyes:

As always some level of financial education (and some self confidence) are the key.

Other suggestions?
N.
 
Bill.L said:
Hi all,

Housekeeper, This certainly is the prime question.

"To me, the question is: have you become wealthy through the type of advice you are providing? If not, then why should I follow your advice then?"

Too many times we see FP offer advice that varies from how they made their money. Many will fail to tell you that the real fortune they have has come from selling investments (ie through their business), then again many may fail to be wealthy anyway, but just tell you how to do it.

bye

Bill,

I totally disagree - I don't think this is the prime question at all. If the FP became wealthy via gambling, option trading, legal prositution, etc, then I wouldn't want to paying them to give me that advice just because it worked for them :D :D .

As we keep saying on this Forum, everyone's situation is different - we are all at different ages, different levels of investing maturity, have different risk profiles, different investing ethics, etc, etc. Therefore, I would expect the FP to be using different wealth strategies to me.

The real question here is: is their advice appropriate for ME (that is, is it right for my situation)? That question is a question that only YOU can answer and it only gets easier with education, knowledge and experience.

BTW, I am not an FP nor have any allegience with FP. I have been stung by FP's in the past - that is why I am seeking education, knowledge and experience - that is one reason for me being on this Forum.
 
There's a simple solution - let's all spend $5K, do the 5 day course and get qualified as Financial Planners.

Then we can set up and market our own funds.

hmm - I wonder if Amway or another of the network marketing groups have stumbled onto this goldmine as yet.....

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Surely we should approach FPs as you would approach any professional. Namely, know enough about it yourself to know when the advice is appropriate or not, and to know whether the professional know what they're talking about.

I wouldn't trust my accountant, lawyer, real estate agent, etc blindly. I could need to know enough to know when they're lying to me or are just plan wrong.

If you approach a FP with no idea about your risk profile, what you want to achieve, etc. then you run the risk of being steered into something that's inappropriate. The 'I don't know anything so I'm trusting a professional to do it for me' doesn't really work in this modern world of shonky operators, self interest and plain incompetence. In my own profession, a lot of accountants, despite the years of experience, exams, etc, are downright incompetent and lazy.
Alex
 
Hi all,

Kierank,

What makes you think that a FP who made money doing one thing, possibly "gambling, option trading, legal prositution, etc", would know anything about other types of investment??

Just because a FP says "I'm investing in sliced bread now" does not mean it is a good investment, for you or anyone else, irrespective of their circumstances.

The FP industry is entirely different to that of accountant, lawyer etc. They are dealing with the future outcomes that cannot be known at present, whereas the others are dealing with current rules.

At least those FPs who have made money in 'X' at least know how to make money in 'X' (given past circumstances,luck etc). But at least it is better than them telling you to invest in 'Y' because they 'think' it may be a good idea for you, without any knowledge of how to make money in that field!!

bye
 
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