floor coverings just when I thought I had it covered

[Shelly]

Hi Peoples,
I have to replace the carpet in one of my houses.

I'm tossing up between carpet or tiles for lounge/dining/kitchen in another.

I just read a post further down discussing floor coverings,this was for a new IP.
So now I'm good and confused.
It appears I need to consider several factors.
Longevity from what some one indicated seems to amount to the more you spend the longer the product will last and in better condition.

I had the carpet guy come by today and measure with the idea of installing a cheap polypropylene.$100 per meter.
He said he sells this particular carpet to housing commission because it's so hard wearing.It has a rating of heavy domestic,guess tha'ts easy to claim but means nothing,really.
It's not too daggy,has the sisal look.
This place is a very basic,eight yr old brick veneer,no redeeming features,it's a house.

It doesn't make sense to put in an expensive wooll carpet in such a simple little house.Plus I don't won't to spend that kind of money.I don't know how long I will keep the place,
I can only guess another four or five yrs.
I
personally hate carpet,it's impossible stuff.
My favourite floor finish is strip parquatry.Now you talkin big $$'s.

As for the other place,it's a duplex.Once again it's very basic.
You open the front door and your in the lounge room with the
dining/kitchen running straight off it.
Presently it has grotty old carpet in the lounge and bedrooms,
wrecked vinyl in the kitchen and tiles in the wet areas.
I'm inclined to tile the lounge/kitchen and carpet the bedrooms.
I
've had young messy guys in this place all along,they are scary
how grotty they can be.I figure tiles will iliminate future hassles
with tenants staining the carpet and disputes over how clean is clean etc.
I'm in northern NSW so tiles though not commonly used in lounge rooms wouldn't be too cold,only for a few months perhaps.

I intend to keep this place for a long time.
By the way I have vitrified tiles in my own home and find them
hopeless to clean.Dirt gets stuck in every little nook and cranny.
I've found tiles that have some sort of gloss finish,clean up more easily.

I'm not sure what type of floating floor product others are referring to.I know a lot of people were using one that made a
weird noise when you walked on it.It sounded like plastic.The sound of women's shoes on it were a joke.It was commonly used in fashion shops.I'm sure it was real timber.
I saw some bamboo floor baoards the other day at a carpet place,
nice but not cheap.

I've also seen some really funky new vinyls that look exciting for creating a modern retro look.Once again not cheap.I would assume like most vinyl it would mark and scratch easily.

What to do?
Cheers Shelly

 

[Jude H]

Last year I replaced the carpet in one of my ips. Polypropylene for polypropylene. It was still going strong after ten years. Professional carpet cleaner gets it like new. I replaced it when I renovated the house because there was nothing I could do about all the cigarette burns in the carpet. They had been there 5 years, incompetent pm with interstate landlord...you know the story. Personally I like the stuff and the new pile makes it look quite classy.

Jude

 

[sbe]

I just did a reno on a unit of mine. Had Vinyl in the dining / kitchen, and carpet in the hall / lounge area.

The cost to replace the (supply and lay) Vinyl was the same as the supply only of a floating floor. Altough the lounge carpet was OK, it was different to the rest (been replaced by previous owner), and the hall had been water damaged some time ago.

I decided to bite the bullet, and laid 46m2 of floating floor through the hall/dining/kitchen/lounge. Looks a million bucks!

I chose a laminate floor (pre-finished and harder wearing-it is rented after all), decent board thickness (there's some really thin junk out there), and a pattern that would hide the sins of tenants more easily - ie more "country/heritage" style than perfect polished strips that would show every mark.

Everyone who's seen it comments on how good it looks. I got the boards on a special deal, I think it cost me around $39 a pack, with 2m2 coverage, then the extra for the edge beading - around another $100 odd, plus staining of the edge strips only. Did it myself (GET KNEE PADS !!!). Take your time and viola!

If you're tiling, the difficulty is the non-glazed tiles get dirtier quicker, the glazed ones are damn slippery when wet.

I'd be tempted if carpeting to go for a poly carpet, less absorbent. If you want really tough stuff, check out walkatex

http://spec-net.com.au/chic/walk.htm

This stuff is amazing.

Good Luck.

Simon.

 

[geoffw]

Presumably you don't have wood floors- a concret slab?

We had carpet in the family room- it was too much trouble to keep clean. We replaced it with tiles- lino-type tiles, not ceramic, and have been very happy with them. They're softer and quiter than ceramic tiles, and a lot more forgiving of dropped plates.

The RE agent says that in the Canberra area, tenants prefer carpet in bedrooms- polished wood in living areas.

I've heard that "DHA carpet" is the carpet of choice for an IP. I can't remember what that is- I'm due to put carpet into a property now, and would be interested to know- and to compare it to the carpet the PM is proposing.

 

[Aceyducey]

We wanted to go for polished wood in kitchen/living/halls & a tiled entranceway in a property we're renovating (in Canberra), but found that the floorboards were far too damaged to come up looking good and we had some potential heating issues due to gaps.

Instead we've stuck with carpet throughout living & halls areas, with ceramic tiles in the Kitchen/family (and, of course, wet) areas.

You can get some very hardwearing carpet at sub $100 (inc laying), including some commercial-grade options if you look around.

From our experience tiles are becoming more and more popular in family areas.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

 

[XBenX]

100% poly stain protected carpet is the way to go - this will come in at under $100 a broadloom metre including laying and underlay

I personally prefer the sisal varieties (but make sure it is never cross joined - it looks shithouse)

Never ever go anything other than 100%poly in a buy and hold (the possible exception being if its an exec rental)

Regarding floor boards - it will cost you the same $$$ except you will have to lay it yourself... go laminate its harder to scratch (the sales pitch is its been on your kitchen benches for years it will be good on the floor) the only downside is that you cant sand them and if you drop a heavy sharp object on them it may split

It really all depends on what the market you are aiming at prefers

 

[New Dad Soon]

Lots of good answers.......

As said in a previous post.....

Polypropelene is a form of nylon (invented by Dupont in their London and NY operations hence the word was invented they say). Nylon has a VERY good abrasion resistance but poor resilience (flattens) and stain resistance in it's raw state. This can be rectified by engineering different characteristics into the construction/treatment. (That is why there is a huge number of stain treatments such as Stainmaster etc , and also why, after a number of steam cleans, eg when the tenant leaves, you wash out the treatment and it suddenly looks grotty all the time).

A derivative of nylon is Polypropelene. It has an improved stain resistance, but is even more prone to flattening.

The manufacturers submit their carpets under the Australian Carpet Classification Scheme, for assessment. The carpet is then tested for it wear rating (abrasion resistance). Because it is nylon, it will perform well, and given enough quantity of yarn (face pile weight) it will in all likely hood attain a heavy duty WEAR rating.

This can be affected by the quantity of yarn, and the construction. A loop pile is far stronger than a cut pile so takes less yarn to attain the same rating.

The point most people miss, is that you NEVER actually wear your carpet out. You just flatten it, and stain it, and if you do not vacuum the recommended (8 times per session from memory) amount, it gets grubby. The solution to our lack of maintenance? replace it, or give it a steam clean.

Wool, on the other hand, has a natural abrasion resistance AND resilience, reasonable stain repellant and no static problems. (remember those old loop pile berbers that are still going strong all these years later? or 30 year old axminsters? wool)

You can easily use Poly, as a low cost alternative, but be aware of what you are getting. If you want cheap, then this is arguably the best way to go.

Carpet comes in several styles of structure. The DHA usually uses a cheap loop pile called Polypropelene. This is a hard wearing commercial synthetic that is prone to flattening (therefore looks cheap within twelve months) and if not scoured (de-oiled) properly by the manufacturer, will stain easily and become soiled.

The best way to look for a Poly is to use a domestic (not commercial look) style loop construction in a dense weave. As with all things, you get what you pay for. So if our solution is replace it all the time, then the replacement cost must be taken into account over a set period.

TIP Rememeber that carpet is priced usually as a bradloom metre, that when quoted around $100 actually equates to $27.32 sqm. Pretty cheap when you do the maths.

If you use PIA, check out the difference it makes to your situation, balanced by any (possible) increase in rent due to the more upmarket appearance. PIA is a great leveller for this discussion, (when you factor the differences between $$$ vs quality and its' impact on your budget, you may see the decision there).

Re Floating floors, traditionally commercial and retail outlets use the $29-$49 laminate 6-7mm thick for their floors, as they have a high point loading resistance. Point loading is what happens when a lady wears high heel shoes. Her 60kg per square inch weight translates to several tonnes as the load is concentrated on a few square mm. This is why you get dents in softer woods such as pine.

By having a Laminex type surface, they eliminate the grain, and have a higher scuff resistance than timber. The surface is coated with Aluminium Oxide (the same stuff as in sandpaper hence the abrasion resistance) and all goes well. They do sound clackier (is that a word?) because they are hard.

Where the Laminates fail spectacularly, is in their dimensional stability. Simply put, get it wet, throw it out. The backing is compressed fibre (cardboard) that is impregnated with moisture resistant glue. As it absorbs moisture (through the ground, spills, humidity) it WILL expand.... just like cardboard. I have seen some floors in commercial applications expand by up to a foot. The manufacturuers have recognised this and developed a glue free click-in click-out system for easier replacement of sections.

Domestically, it can easily be used, just be prepared for a problem at some point, knowing that you may have to spend tomorrow what you save today, and insure yourself accordingly.

The timber versions, such as an American Oak, Jarrah, Karri and to a lesser extent Hevea perform very well in high traffic areas.

They can be re-sanded up to 4-5 times, as you are resanding the polish and not the timber as a rule. The best warranted product in this is the Fastwood, and an american version that may still be available through Carpet One which had a ceramic coating over the timber.

This type of flooring is designed to be a DIY and you can save heaps by laying it yourself. You will find each pack comes with a set of laying instructions. Just rememeber to take time in prep then you won't get the hollow noise.

Tiles' main cleaning weakness is the grout. (If you go for an unglazed porcelain, the rough surface will also accumulate dirt).

The grout is there for one purpose. To fill up the expansion gaps as the clay tile absorbs and exudes moisture, and therefore expands and contracts. A clay tile is cheaper than a porcelain, but a porcelain doesn't need the same gaps due to it being almost impervious to moisture, hence the maintenance is lower.

IMHO, spend now save later. Do the maths for your situation, and do it once.

Tiles and timber are becoming more and more the living area floor because they perform better, for longer than cheap solutions like carpet.

Many times I have seen customers come in to look for flooring, go away and put down a budget solution, and come back months or a year later looking for a proper solution.

The number of times I have seen 'investors' put down nothing but S*#* and then complain about poor tenants........ because they focus on getting the minimum cost and wonder why the tenant won't stay when you increase the rent.

I have spent the money on quality fixtures and found it easy to get tenants who sign up for two years+ who look after the property and take pride in their home.

After all, they are just people like you and I......

 

[XBenX]

all that info and not even a plug for where you work ?

surely you cant be in showroom salesman ?

so are you saying i should spend $200 a broadloom for some good quality wool ?

or maybe $70-100m2 for some solid timber ?

for $30m2 you can get the click system moisture treated laminates (avoiding the water issues)

as in the shower post, its my experience that its the first impression that matters - tenants walk in and see timber laminate floors (unless the work in a trade or sales) and are impressed - or they see nice new carpet (whether its 100% poly sisal or a $200 100% quality wool) and love it - maybe again you in a different market but for the extra $$$ spent id be lucky to get any extra $$$ or a better tenant...

the only benefit is how long it will last .... ive seen 100% poly looking good after a few years yet we have a nice wool in our home and after a few years of indoor pets id prefer the poly - except for the comfort pattern - but how many tenants lie on the floor or feel the carpet when doing an inspection.

wow, thats quite a post, im normally short and to the point

edit : lol it aint that long after all

just on reading it again - id never have poly in my own house - but thats just me - you have to distance yourself from what you like and what tenants like - when i first saw fake timber floors i thought they were terrible - yet tenants like them so in they go....

 

[New Dad Soon]

mmmmmmm

work for myself...... don't believe in using forum as a business source.........

have just bought 100% wool CAVALIER BREMWORTH (rolls royce of carpets) for $79per lm ($21.58m2) from a local shop

recently purchased solid timber for $39m2, porcelain for $35m2 inc GST

it's all in your research............

 

[rossv]

weellll,

all of the above figures sounds way over the top to me!

I just paid $2400 for enough carpet to do 14 2br units.

100% wool, commercial carpet. yes it was 2nd hand.......no it

had no signs of wear.....as new.....company went broke!

when you think you have found the best buy.........go and look

again!!!


rossv

 

[New Dad Soon]

see?

 

[geoffw]

Originally posted by New Dad Soon
work for myself...... don't believe in using forum as a business source.........

NDS,

Without having to plug, a business website, a business name, or even a location, on your profile would not be unwelcome.

What I don't like is people who don't contribute, who come in to leave an ad behind, and who never visit again.

What I don't mind at all is a person who contributes to the forum, who leaves a business card around for those interested enough to search.

You contribution has been welcome outside the forum as well. Your Private mail which I copied in http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=35372#post35372 was very welcome.

But you still haven't answered a question I raised in another thread- how long until the event?

 

[New Dad Soon]

New Mum Soon just had the latest check up.

The doc would like the New Boy Soon to stop growing, and New Mum Soon would like him to stop kicking her. The basketball up her top is rock hard and she is slowing down markedly.

We went to the hospital 'familiarisation tour' for prospective New Parents Soon. Good thing too..... we only live two blocks from the hospital and I would've gone to the wrong entrance in a rush! How embarrassing!!!!!!

My bet is next week, the doc says 1-2 wks later.......... guess we pay him to know these things so I just keep pacing

 

[geoffw]

New Boy Soon? You know already? Or just guessing?

 

[Shelly]

Well,if I thought I was confused before

When we are speaking of floating floors,is this real timber or the the fake look alike?
It's not just hight heels that make this click clack
noise,it even happens with bare feet.
Please could someone slowly explain this new timber look to me.
It comes in boards right?it's glued to concrete,right?or does it sit slightly above it, on forgot the word,timber frames.

I won't be laying anything,lifting anything,grouting anything.

I'm really not fond of fake products.Even timber looking laminex.
I've used timber veneer for kitchen cupboards for the same money.
To me when fake dates,it's a bad look.Then again everything dates.
Remember that terrible fake timber wall sheeting back in the eighties?

As for tiles.I have only found dirty grout problems in wet areas.
Grey grout seems to be the best solution. I don't care if my tenants are clumsy and drop plates,only if chips my tiles.Can't remember which tile to avoid for chipping,I will check again with the tiler.

Assuming I don't get any super deals.Not a lot of competition in regional areas.Considering I won't be doing any of the labour.
How would say a $25-$30 tile layed compare price wise to the floating floor?

I know what you mean about poly carpet flattening,I can feel the tighteness of the weave and see some would be way better than others.
I once had poly in my own place because I had two inside dogs.I can say very it's dog freindly.I also agree it's sratchy under your feet.
I wouldn't dream of cut loop carpet,that's suicide.
Yes I recall the old buber,looked at some today in partners unit,9yrs old came up perfect with a clean.

Tenants may be like you and I in their taste,they want the best,the trendy,latest look.
How ever most tenants I have found are not interested in helping me preserve my trendy look.
In my area there is a quick turn over of tenants.I've just resigned a couple for another 12 months,I consider myself really lucky.Then again they have three kids and a smal dog.Moving for them is a big big drama.
This is a transient area.
Thanks for al the info,
Cheers Shelly

 

[New Dad Soon]

Hi Shelly

Floating means not fixed to the sub-floor (eg concrete) and can come in laminate (artificial) or timber veneer/ layers of varying thicknesses.

The noise comes from air pockets underneath (level tolerance is +/- 2mm per 1 metre that can easily be packed with scraps of vinyl flooring) and the fact that a harder surface will always sound different initially.

Nail polish is a great filler for chipped tiles as it has an enamel base and is easy to obtain. (New Mum Soon has a good range)

The hardness factor of a tile is partly measured by the PEI grading, which any store will guide you on. The usual suspects for cracked tiles can be the installers and the spread rate of the adhesive.......

$$$ depends on the grain of timber used. Jarrah is more expensive than Oak etc, but you can buy and install Hevea for the same price as tiles laid in my experience.

My area was probably a bit transient as most tenants wanted a short term lease while they were building in the area and awaiting completion (typically 6 months). By providing something as good as they would build, and in some ways better, they are happy to stay put for less.

Hope this helps.......

 

[XBenX]

New Dad Soon - i wasnt having a go, i was actually sayng you shoud advertise since you gave so much info

Re prices - PM or post your details, you have a new client

Rossv - we know you are the king bargain hunter

Shelly - just remember - you arent living in the place and tenants have different standards to you..... i know its an issue that causes dramas - again as above - it really depends on your market.

 

[Shelly]

Thanks New Dad Soon,
I went out to the carpet place and got the run down on floating floors.The noisy ones I'm certian are the laminex products.
Still can't come to terms with it,it doesn't look or feel real to me.
I just wonder if in a few years people will be turning their noses up at the fake wood floor look?Who knows.

Maybe I should give tenants what they would expect.
In my area new houses and better townhouses might have real timber floors and carpet in bedrooms ,tiles in wet areas and perhaps the foyer.
In older style brick veners as I own there would most likely be carpet in lounge and bedrooms,tiles in kitchen/dining and wet areas.At least this way,even if they prefer timber they wouldn't exactly be surprised.A timber floor in my places would not fetch me any more rent.

Thanks for all the help,
By the way New Dad soon,your ideas on floor coverings may change,that is when you have a little one in the house.
What's ok for singles is a different matter for kids,ask any Mum or Mr Mum?
Cheers Shelly

 

[New Dad Soon]

Hi Shelly

Had a PPOR with floating timber throughout living and carpet in bedrooms.........

New Outlaws Soon have New Nephews Soon who were very fond of

a) banging whatever toy they had on the floor
b) tipping whatever drink they had on the floor
c) spewing every 20 minutes (I'm told this is called reflux) on everything at surprising speed
d) crawling at speed across the floor
e) rubbing the metal shoe buckle across the floor to make a noise

New Mum Soon and myself had a couple of ****tail parties for 60-70 people that involved bringing a bottle of spirits each (all gone the next day), tubs of beer, slushy machines and bar staff. The next days mess took only two mops to clean up.............

Being a smooth surface meant clean up takes minutes not hours.

You are certainly correct however, current place has (yech) old tiles that we dislike and will be gone before New Boy Soon arrives (for timber)

 

[Shelly]

Hey Dad,
I may have found the solution.I went into Solomon's and had a look at all the options.
The sales guy was very excited about the latest range of timber
looking vinyl.
He asked me to check out several retail places where they had recently put different grain types of this vinyl.I had my partner
with me and simply asked him to look at a shop floor.He swore black and blue it was real timber.
Another shop down further had just put in a laminex floating floor.
Without me telling him he could clearly see it wasn't real
and thought it didn't look as impressive.
Then we looked at several shops that had real timber floors,some of them original heritage.All of them looked worn and tired,
particularly at the entrance.All of them looked due for a re sanding.A nightmare for a retail outlet.

This vinyl if damaged can have just the strips that are damaged replaced.It has a 15yr-20yr guarantee.
I must admit this stuff looks really good down.You can also get
creative and have borders and different designs.
Price wise it comes in between laminex and real timber.
Cheers Shelly.
PS I'm not on commission