Four Corners. Monday. Mining V's Farming.

[topcropper]

On the ABC's four corners program, Monday 20th, 8.30 pm, the issue will be the mining V's farming debate on the Liverpool Plains.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2009/s2628992.htm


Should be interesting. I've seen the camera's out and about. Can't imagine that it will be pro mining. Hopefully it will be pro farming, however 4 corners generally shows both sides of an issue.

There is certainly 2 sides to this issue. Cash strapped governments looking for an instant cash injection and massive mining profits, verses the much lower but sustainable profitability of farming.

No one can say this is about farmers being greedy. Any farmer who allows the miners on to drill are the ones who get the offers to buy, at above market rates. Most are blockading. We all want to continue what we do. We all know we are sitting on a gold mine anyway if we can continue to farm, so why sell out even at good money? You wont see too many busted ar$e 'dad and dave', 'misery farm' croppers anymore, as they're all gone. Anyone left is switched on and doing things right. We have had good profitable seasons, fantastic dirt, assets and business's and don't want the land destroyed. Most are staying.

Can't wait to see what the show is about and to see my local area on national TV.

See ya's.

 

[pursefattener]

Look forward to seeing this and perhaps a glimpse of something positive for good farm business people .

 

[yadreamin]

Thanks TC l too will look forward to watching this programe.
I have found in the last 18 months that a much more favourable view of our farmers has been promoted.
Maybe its finally been realized how very very important you all are to us.
cheers
yadreamin

 

[topcropper]

Look forward to seeing this and perhaps a glimpse of something positive for good farm business people .

I'm not that confident. There is just so much money involved going to governments from mining. Right from start to finish. We'll just do our best. Hopefully people can look a thousand years into the future instead of a few years.

Apparently there was a preview of the 4 corners program on 'Landline' today. And I'm on the program, or so I've been told by some of my mates who've rung me up. I'm getting on a bus at 4 am in the dark. The camera has me walking down the bus isle. Then a few hours later the camera has me reading 'THE LAND' rural news paper while still on the bus. We were going down to NSW state parliment to hear a motion get passed by the upper house to get prime farm land protected from mining, but farmers lost out.



I hear milk prices have crashed right down. That's bad. The boom didn't last long. What prices are you going to get this year, and what does it cost you to produce.

Good luck with it all.

Cheers mate.

 

[kinga4610]

TC

I was watching Landline today. So I guess I did see you on there (you did a fine job of advertising "The Land" newspaper). Not knowing it was you of course. I was thinking how awake everyone looked for the hour of the morning (4am). It was a good lead up to the 4 corners programme, which I intend to watch.

We have many farmers going through this same situation with the Kunion mine site. Most have sold out now, but still a few not budging. Some of these farms have been in the family for generations.

Kinga

 

[Aaron Sice]

just saw the repeat now - what a golden place.

the NSW govt need a royal commission if they approve a coal mine in that area.

i'd bomb the bluddy rail line myself.

 

[Bill.L]

Hi TC,

I watched it of course, and see that you have a fight on your hands. In our area we have been fighting a similar battle with govt over the mining of water. Groundwater for city consumption.

Despite the obvious damage to the local environment, all sorts of consultant reports (independent ones, yeah right) stated no damage would be caused.
We eventually won, but not because of us, nor the local environmental effects.

The new desal plant plus the pipe from the North meant that Melb water authorities needed more money to pay for it. So Geelong's Barwon Water had to be part of it. Barwon Water was who we were fighting. Suddenly the govt stops them from testing our groundwater, what a coincidence.

Basically, unless there is some elephant from left field to stop money for the coal (like world wide ban on new coal because of CO2 emissions), then the money will win out.
Every independent report that the govt will produce will show positive effects for the local community with safeguards for the environment. From the political viewpoint (both govt and business) you never ask the question unless you know the answer, as in the right answer.
Any "independent" reports your side comes up with, will be judged as biased and dismissed.

Sorry to be so negative, but just stating what happens in the real world. I noticed the chat between you and Dazz in another thread and wonder if a moderator could move that discussion into this thread.

Good luck, cause you're gunnu need it.

bye

 

[steveadl]

Hi TC, asking this question here as I don't want to derail the rural farming land thread...

TC: However, just remember that all farmers who will have their land mined are being offered more than the value of their farms to walk away, so we are beiing compensated.

I don't think mining companies have to compensate us. However it is a matter of social responsibility. This is not China.

I didn't watch the program, so sorry if this was mentioned already. Is it possible for the coal mining co's looking at your area to mine the ground underneath whilst leaving the framers in tact to go about their business on the surface?

Does the mining (with the exception of above ground operations, run off pools etc) activity effect the soil you work in the long term?

Just wondering if it's possible to have both industries going or is it more a case of mining co's just finding it easier to throw some money at the farmers and have the land to themselves?

 

[VeeDub]

I didn't watch the program, so sorry if this was mentioned already. Is it possible for the coal mining co's looking at your area to mine the ground underneath whilst leaving the framers in tact to go about their business on the surface?

Steve,

If you had been able to watch 4C, which was very interesting, you would understand why the answer to this is "No"

Does the mining (with the exception of above ground operations, run off pools etc) activity effect the soil you work in the long term?

In layman's terms, Yes.

VW

 

[topcropper]

. Is it possible for the coal mining co's looking at your area to mine the ground underneath whilst leaving the framers in tact to go about their business on the surface?

Does the mining (with the exception of above ground operations, run off pools etc) activity effect the soil you work in the long term?

Just wondering if it's possible to have both industries going or is it more a case of mining co's just finding it easier to throw some money at the farmers and have the land to themselves?

Coal is mined in the most cost effective way. Where it's shallow, it's open cut. The topsoil is put in one spot, the next layers put in other spots etc. After the mine is finished the layers are supposed to go back how they came out and the land reabilitated. We are told that reabilitated mining land is never much good again, but that could just be anti-mining propaganda.

If it's deep it's long wall mined. A massive machine operates under the ground and takes out say a few metres of the coal seam. The land is then allowed to subside behind the operation. Long wall mining sounds hard to understand for someone who's never seen it. It sounds like science fiction to me, however i know numerous miners who have done it. The problem here is once the ground subsides it shatters the water aquifers, drains creeks etc. Also, the plains would end up with hollows in them.

Not many areas have such wonderful water under them like in this area.

Long wall coal mining has never even been done before under an alluvial black soil floodplain. My mates who've done it under a gravel hill in the Hunter say water pours down into the operation and massive pumps have to pump it out, so how will it work under these floodplains?. I personally think it would be impossible. The water will just be gushing down under these plains I'd think. Maybe the workes will use scuba gear..??

I'd think if mining was possible with farming then the miners wouldn't be buying out the farms.

We currently have coal mines to the north of us, near Gunnedah on country that is very poor agriculturally. The farmer owners many years ago were probably relieved to have it purchased off them to put them out of their misery. To the south is the mines of the Hunter. The rich river flats have mostly been left alone and the majority poor soil on the ridges mined.

Check out the Hunter from google maps,.....

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=-32.506866,151.033859&spn=0.390291,0.614548&z=11

And that's just the open cut. You can't see the long wall stuff. Driving past you don't realise the extent. If I climb to the top of the range just south of me, 1200 metres asl, I can see the mines and the power stations.

We are being bombarded with nightmare stories of environmental degradation from the anti mine organisation. We have to sort out what is exageration and what is true. Of course some of the problems are well known, and some completely unknown.

See ya's.

 

[Sunfish]

I saw the show and I do shake my head and wonder why. If there is hundreds of years of coal in the country, why this bit?

I'm trying to work out where you are TC and assume that if you were on the bus you are close neighbours of the farmers featured. (What a lifestyle the old families have?)

Looking at the map, there is some good looking country south of the Coonabarabran Rd. Is that where you are?

 

[steveadl]

Thanks TC, interesting stuff.

 

[Aaron Sice]

I saw the show and I do shake my head and wonder why. If there is hundreds of years of coal in the country, why this bit?

because it's close to existing rail infrastructure,so it's cheap to get to export.

 

[VeeDub]

When the State Govt gets to collect $100M in license fee / royalty and only requires the miners to pay $100K bond in the event that they do cause damage to the environment; it is difficult to draw any conclusion other than that State Govt will be a "rubber stamp" when it comes to the Environmental Impact Statement etc.

You would have to think that the farmer's best hope from a political perspective is the Federal Govt. From an environment perspective if there are fair risk that the miners can't guarantee the integrity of the floodplain then Penny Wong & co (no doubt urged by the Greens) may step in.

 

[depreciator]

Not knowing it was you of course. I was thinking how awake everyone looked for the hour of the morning (4am).

That's because they're farmers. Bus load of us city slickers at that hour?

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

 

[topcropper]

I'm trying to work out where you are TC and assume that if you were on the bus you are close neighbours of the farmers featured. (What a lifestyle the old families have?)

Looking at the map, there is some good looking country south of the Coonabarabran Rd. Is that where you are?

As from that other thread, this is roughly the area that was featured on the 4 corners program,....
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=-31.333112,150.390472&spn=0.197652,0.307274&z=12



I'm about 40 ks to the south, south/east. Why not check out my sorghum crop on street view,............



So, Everyone's seen exactly where I live..?? Cool then. No need to leave it here for eternity then. Never know what some weirdo's can get up to?

.......Deleted......


See ya's.

 

[steveadl]

Love the images TC, thanks for posting!

I'm sure you've mentioned this in your farm threads before - but how many of you are there working this land at plant/harvest time? You, your dad.....?

 

[topcropper]

Love the images TC, thanks for posting!

I'm sure you've mentioned this in your farm threads before - but how many of you are there working this land at plant/harvest time? You, your dad.....?

Just me and dad.

Dads 70 next year. A lot of the time our farm is a one man operation. Like it is now. From when the wheat is in, for a few months I can easily look after things on my own. Mum and dad are currently in Europe spending some of their hard earned and good on them. They never could afford it when they were younger.

At certain times, say especially planting and harvest we are both flat out and could probably employ an extra, but while dad is still keen we do it by ourselves. From late Oct till about Christmas is the busiest time of the year. This 2 month period see's us plant our summer crop, then get straight into winter crop harvest.

See ya's.

 

[HiEquity]

Hi TC

I have some sympathy for your situation regarding environmental impact uncertainties but discussion on this can only be had in light of a fully fledged EIS and has nothing to do with mining companies buying land. To those who doubt the integrity of an EIS for mine approval conducted in Australia, I suggest you attack the science in them rather than the process! You can't attack the environmental impact science without an EIS, or similar reports that you would have to pay for...

Anyway, I have a question for you:

What price would be adequate to compensate you for the inconvenience and the future impact to the land from coal mining?

- 1 x market price? (I wouldn't be happy with that! Fortunately mining companies generally agree this isn't adequate although the legislation allows it)
- 1.5 x market price? (I would think this is reasonable to allow the farmer to buy next door's place and make it worth the trouble of moving leaving a fair bit left over...)
- 2 x market price?
- etc?

My point is that there is a reasonable value on that land. If a mining company can make circa 50% returns on their money (as they do and you benefit from being a BHP and Rio shareholder! ) while paying 10x market value for the land, surely you're not seriously suggesting they should be prevented from doing so? I would hope not anyway... the cost of the land is in the noise of their development costs!

FYI - Even if the land was completely worthless for farming after mining (which it won't be - topsoil is topsoil and rehabilitation is a proven science) then paying 7x market value in today's dollars would, in economic terms, completely compensate for the ability to never farm the land again. This is a rule of them from discounted cash flow modelling using a circa 10% discount rate. Not saying I agree with that mind you (it hurts renewable energy just as much!) - just pointing out that everything has an economic value and in this case it is most likely that the mining value is probably at least an order of magnitude above the farming value...

Whether we should be using cheap coal as a fuel source for our internal and export energy requirements or more expensive energy sources is a battle you may also need to take up?

 

[topcropper]

G'day HE.

I don't know how EIS's work, but they must surely depend on the value of the land in question. You can't tell me that a gas field in the middle of the Pilliga scrup, or out at Innaminka should have the same environmental standards as one on prime farm land. I've seen some gas fields on some worthless scrub, the evaporation ponds, the saline salty sludge, and if there's a mistake on such worthless land,then who cares?

Anyway, I have a question for you:

What price would be adequate to compensate you for the inconvenience and the future impact to the land from coal mining?

- 1 x market price? (I wouldn't be happy with that! Fortunately mining companies generally agree this isn't adequate although the legislation allows it)
- 1.5 x market price? (I would think this is reasonable to allow the farmer to buy next door's place and make it worth the trouble of moving leaving a fair bit left over...)
- 2 x market price?
- etc?

My point is that there is a reasonable value on that land. If a mining company can make circa 50% returns on their money while paying 10x market value for the land, surely you're not seriously suggesting they should be prevented from doing so? I would hope not anyway... the cost of the land is in the noise of their development costs!

FYI - Even if the land was completely worthless for farming after mining (which it won't be - topsoil is topsoil and rehabilitation is a proven science) then paying 7x market value in today's dollars would, in economic terms, completely compensate for the ability to never farm the land again.

Land rehabilitation after mining is not a proven science. I know of no example where the land is returned to the same state it was in.

I haven't contemplated what I would want for my land.

I think there is plenty of land in Australia that deserves to be protected from mining whatever the mining profits. You go on about discount rates and stuff, bugger that. Australia's best food producing land is too valuable to risk.

I'll list some that should be protected. The red Ferrosols. Atherton Tablelands, Kingaroy, Dorrigo, northern Tasmania, and there are plenty of other areas that I'm not familiar with. These are the worlds best vegetable growing soils. The deep black self mulching vertisols of the Darling Downs and the Liverpool Plains. Basically any volcanic soil in Australia as it is so rare. The alluvial soils of the river flats almost anywhere. I'm not that familiar with the quality of sandy soil. No doubt there are quality areas of Victoria, South Oz, West Oz that are too valuable to risk.

Only 6% of Australias soil is arable. Surely we can save 20% of that, which would include all the super quality stuff?

As was stated on the 4 corners program, we have a lot of coal. 200 years of black and much more of brown. You can't tell me that in just 100 years time that we won't have developed completely clean nuclear fusion power? Or maybe we will be mining the moon for helium-3 and running nuclear fusion on helium-3 and deuterium? Or perhaps solar panels in space will be beaming down the energy? Or maybe something not even thought of?

We don't need the coal under our very best soils. Leave the dirty polluting stuff there for flips sake.



Discount rates for farming land? bugger that. Farming land lasts forever. Mining is a one shot wonder. I'll bet food is in shorter supply in 100 years than energy. We need to wake up to ourselves.

I've stated numerous times on here how I think our immigration policy is crazy. Our population growth is out of control. It's all for growth. Like a drug addict. If we didn't have such a fast growing population we wouldn't have to be raping the land like we are. Once again, we should wake up to our selves. We are heading to a population of 100 million by 2100 at this rate. 100 by 100 should be the catchcry. Total madness.

See ya's.