France terrorist atrocity.

[Mr. Fabulous]

Perp, we can dig into the literally hundreds (if not thousands) of mini sects within religion as a whole. But what would be the point? It's guilt by association. I didn't say that 'individuals within religion are the cause of....' I said religion. As in, religion itself, is poisonous.

That is, religion as an ideology. Most homies that are religious are chill as, but so much violence, pain, suffering and death has been committed in the name of religion that all religions not only have 'blood on their hands' so to speak, they swim in oceans of it.

 

[Perp]

Perp, we can dig into the literally hundreds (if not thousands) of mini sects within religion as a whole. But what would be the point? It's guilt by association. I didn't say that 'individuals within religion are the cause of....' I said religion. As in, religion itself, is poisonous.

That is, religion as an ideology. Most homies that are religious are chill as, but so much violence, pain, suffering and death has been committed in the name of religion that all religions not only have 'blood on their hands' so to speak, they swim in oceans of it.

I'm just not sure that "religions" makes any sense as a grouping, in having any particular common feature. Well, unless you also think "people" and "places" are sensible groupings, too. Which is fair - I've been known to observe that people suck.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

I'm just not sure that "religions" makes any sense as a grouping, in having any particular common feature. Well, unless you also think "people" and "places" are sensible groupings, too. Which is fair - I've been known to observe that people suck.

See, I would argue that all religions have a single, common, binding ideal (not sure if that is the right word) - intolerance.

 

[Perp]

See, I would argue that all religions have a single, common, binding ideal (not sure if that is the right word) - intolerance.

Now you're saying "all" religions, not "religion" as a concept, so again, I'd ask where you find intolerance in Jainism or Universal Unitarianism or one of dozens of others.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

For goodness sake! Semantics!

See, I would argue that religion as a concept has a single, common ideal (not sure if that is the right word), which is binding to all religions - intolerance.

There.

 

[Peter_Tersteeg]

A lot of commentary appears to be that atrocities are committed in the name of religion and therefore religion is bad. This is very narrow minded.

This type of thinking focus' on the actions of a few individuals who are using religion as a tool or an excuse for their actions. For these individuals religion isn't about worship or faith, it's a way of manipulating others, it's about power.

This thinking also focus' on the actions of an extreme minority and completely ignores things like charity, education and a simple sense of inner strength and contentment that religion brings to billions of people everywhere.

By all means read the old testament and be horrified by the descriptions of a vengeful God, mass murder, oppression, etc. I think you'll find that most Christians identify better with stories of the good Samaritan and tenants such as, "Do unto others as you'd have them to unto you".

Take religion out of the world and I think you'll still have people who oppress and harm others. They'll just have to do it in the name of a different label. There'll also be a lot more people who still want to make the world a better place for everyone. You'll still only usually only hear about the bad guys, not the vast majority that want the world to be a good place.

 

[property_girl]

See, I would argue that all religions have a single, common, binding ideal (not sure if that is the right word) - intolerance.

I think that most religions are tolerant; at least, at the heart of it, they are. Jesus taught not to judge. Buddhism is a very peaceful religion. The fact that Christianity has been used and manipulated by men to gain power over others is another issue.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

A lot of commentary appears to be that atrocities are committed in the name of religion and therefore religion is bad. This is very narrow minded.

This type of thinking focus' on the actions of a few individuals who are using religion as a tool or an excuse for their actions. For these individuals religion isn't about worship or faith, it's a way of manipulating others, it's about power.

This thinking also focus' on the actions of an extreme minority and completely ignores things like charity, education and a simple sense of inner strength and contentment that religion brings to billions of people everywhere.

By all means read the old testament and be horrified by the descriptions of a vengeful God, mass murder, oppression, etc. I think you'll find that most Christians identify better with stories of the good Samaritan and tenants such as, "Do unto others as you'd have them to unto you".

Take religion out of the world and I think you'll still have people who oppress and harm others. They'll just have to do it in the name of a different label. There'll also be a lot more people who still want to make the world a better place for everyone. You'll still only usually only hear about the bad guys, not the vast majority that want the world to be a good place.

Hi Peter, I agree with your stance regarding using religion as an excuse. Eradicating religion isn't going to magically make all that disappear. Human nature dictates that power provides many benefits to those who hold it. So even without religion, people are always going to try to access power, by force or otherwise. 'To the victor go the spoils' as the saying goes.

However, that doesn't negate the fact that religion breeds intolerance. This thread reeks of it. For instance, TC seems like a good dude, at least based on his posts, I don't know him IRL, so can't say for sure if he actually is or not.

But when it comes to Islam/Muslims, holy moly (no pun intended)! Let the hate flow through you my son. Come to the Dark Side of The Force. It's crazy.

 

[pieman]

You must convert to Islam, read the Koran and cover yourself.

Religious comment, true or false?

 

[Peter_Tersteeg]

For goodness sake! Semantics!

See, I would argue that religion as a concept has a single, common ideal (not sure if that is the right word), which is binding to all religions - intolerance.

There.

I don't think people would generally describe me as being intolerant, yet there is a religious aspect to my life.

Would you describe yourself as atheist or non-religious? You clearly have some very strong opinions and you're extremely one minded and highly argumentative about some of your beliefs. I make this statement based on evidence literally hundreds of your own posts. Common topics are religion and various arguments under the general banner of 'feminism'.

There's no denying that there is lot of intolerant religious people out there, but there's probably more people who identify with a religion who would be considered reasonably tolerant. There's also plenty of evidence that you're kind of calling the kettle black.

 

[cu@thetop]

I suppose as regards Muslim criticism vs Christian criticism it is a bit different given that the core belief systems are essentially different and one is consistent with western liberal democracy and one isn't. Christian's would "turn the other cheek" (at least in theory) whereas the Islamic response tends to be somewhat different.

An older article, which seems well researched gives a useful insight into the Islamic thought processes of the radicals- much of which is justified by direct reference to the Quoran:

http://insct.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Wicktorovitcz.2005.Geneology-of-Radical-Islam.pdf

Essentially , as at 2005 anyone from a western liberal democracy either occupying or supporting an occupying power of a muslim homeland is fair game. Includes children too!

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

It's a shame you chose to get personal there, Peter. Was hoping to have a friendly, open minded debate with you.

To answer your question, yes I am atheist. I also respect all individuals' right to believe whatever they like. My circle of friends ranges from openly atheist to openly religious. If someone chooses to be religious, that's cool with me, as long as they aren't forcing it down my throat.

I used to be close friends with a broad who identified as a Creationist. We have since lost contact, which is unfortunate, but that's life. We would have hours long conversations about religion, god, atheism etc. and it never ever got personal.

Why? Because we respected each others' views. Just because we held opposing views didn't mean we couldn't discuss them. I express myself in an up-front, take no prisoners way, but I am also always open to hearing what other people have to say.

If you want to debate, let's debate! I'll happily discuss this (or any other issue) with anyone (well, almost anyone), anytime. As long as it stays on subject and doesn't devolve into personal attacks.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

I suppose as regards Muslim criticism vs Christian criticism it is a bit different given that the core belief systems are essentially different and one is consistent with western liberal democracy and one isn't. Christians would "turn the other cheek" (at least in theory) whereas the Islamic response tends to be somewhat different.

Absolutely.

In my opinion, a more accurate statement would have been 'The overwhelming majority of Muslims are good people and the overwhelming majority of Christians are good people. It's the small percentage of extremists on both sides that cause all the trouble.'

 

[Peter_Tersteeg]

Mark I apologise for that, I'm not intending to make any sort of personal 'attack', rather I'm fumbling to make an observation which is a difficult one to describe without it being taken personally.

Can you honestly deny that you are highly argumentative, one sided and vocal regarding your opinions of religion?

I don't doubt that you have religious friends and that you're okay with them having their own beliefs. I suspect we're the same in that it's the extreme ones that make us uncomfortable, but I can also give plenty of examples where extreme atheism has made me use as uncomfortable as the fundamentalist spectrum of religion.

Again it can be argued that there is intolerance in religion. It can also be argued that there is a lot of tolerance as well. These days religious officials at all levels work across demonimations for everyone's mutual benefit. There's also a lot of intolerance of religion from the atheist sector. Often as a Christian you only have to read the comments in the online newpapers to feel somewhat marginalised.

In my opinion, a more accurate statement would have been 'The overwhelming majority of Muslims are good people and the overwhelming majority of Christians are good people. It's the small percentage of extremists on both sides that cause all the trouble.'

I couldn't agree more but you certainly don't need religion to apply that statement to humanity. There's plenty of nutter athiests out there as well.

I have no idea what the crazy person in the photo is meant to represent. Certainly doesn't appear to represent anything I believe.

 

[cu@thetop]

Absolutely.

In my opinion, a more accurate statement would have been 'The overwhelming majority of Muslims are good people and the overwhelming majority of Christians are good people. It's the small percentage of extremists on both sides that cause all the trouble.'

Have a read of the article I linked to. The radical Islamists can actually justify their actions through interpretations of the Quoran. Christians would be hard pressed to find suitable quotes from the New Testament to achieve similar justifications for violent actions.

As objectionable as Westboro are they don't actually kill anyone as far as I am aware.
I started to remember the number of Islamist attacks vs Christian based ones in the last say 15 years:
Christians: Abortion clinic bombing.
Islamic styled/themed/flavoured:
Sept 11
London Tube
Madrid railway
Lindt (originally I just viewed this guy as a lone wacko but it now appears he had links to Derka Derka types)
Rigby killing ( British soldier- arguably as a soldier a legit target however)
Belgium synagogue gunman
Mumbai terror attack
Richard Reid failed shoe bomber
Breslin/Russian subway/Russian Ballet attacks (arguably separatist attacks but as I understand it Chechnians seeking an independent Derka homeland)

Been plenty more that I can think of and that's not even counting the crap going down with Boko Haram , ISIL etc.

Regardless of moderates etc there are fundamental issues of difference in the core of the respective religions and the ability of the various religions to integrate to first world liberal democratic tradition. The spectrum of violent discontent seems to be larger in Islam than Christianity- and endorsed by the core text and many common interpretations of the same.

 

[Crabnet]

These French terrorists were highly trained killers.....they were so highly trained that they left their identity card in the getaway car lol....perhaps as a decoy lol

I'm not sure about them being highly trained.
From the video I saw it's certain that at least one of them could fire an assault rifle and leave a compact pattern. The main thing, though, is they showed no compunction in using their weapons to assassinate their targets.
Maybe they have killed before, perhaps in Syria.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

Mark I apologise for that, I'm not intending to make any sort of personal 'attack', rather I'm fumbling to make an observation which is a difficult one to describe without it being taken personally.

No need to apologise, good buddy! You haven't done anything wrong.

Can you honestly deny that you are highly argumentative, one sided and vocal regarding your opinions of religion?

I am who I am. As well as being the gloriously handsome male specimen typing this, I am perfectly comfortable with my views and the way I express them. Some people are okay with it and some people aren't. Personally I am okay with it and that's the only person whose opinion of it matters to me.

I don't doubt that you have religious friends and that you're okay with them having their own beliefs. I suspect we're the same in that it's the extreme ones that make us uncomfortable, but I can also give plenty of examples where extreme atheism has made me use as uncomfortable as the fundamentalist spectrum of religion.

Couldn't agree more. In much the same way as I can't stand people that force religion down other peoples' throats, I can't stand people that force atheism down other peoples' throats and/or are intolerant of any view with which they disagree. I freely admit I'm not perfect, but I do try and keep my point of view as reasoned and logical as possible at all times and try to keep an open mind when the opposing view is also reasoned and logical.

Again it can be argued that there is intolerance in religion. It can also be argued that there is a lot of tolerance as well.

Most religious people are decent. This is true. However... they aren't decent people *because* of religion. They are decent people because they're naturally decent people. Without religion, they'd still be decent. Where the intolerance comes in is the whole 'Us vs Them' mentality. Again, you can see it in this thread. One person or group of persons commits a horrific crime and how people react to it depends on the religion of said person/persons.

Christianity: Ehhh, it's awful what they did, but it's not because they're Christian.

Islam: ZOMGZ! Terrorists! Look at those awful Muslims, killing innocent people again! All in the name of Allah!

It's the same the other way around, too.

Every religion teaches that their god (or gods) are the one true god (or gods) and that their teachings are the word of the one true god (or gods) and that all other religions are a blasphemy against the lord and whatnot.

 

[Peter_Tersteeg]

Again, we generally agree, which is great.

I've got no problem with you being argumentative, etc, but honestly I don't agree with quite a few things, but that's okay, each to their own.

You being gloriously handsome though, seriously!?! Now that's taking things way too far! Lines have been crossed!



Back on topic though...

This sort of terrorist attack is far more about power and really has nothing to do with religion, it's just done in the name of religion. Attacking a newspaper or media outlet isn't going to change anyone's religious views, nor their politics or their social attitudes other than to give them fear.

What it will do is cause people to retaliate. Another terrorist attack triggered several national invasions and countless other retaliatory attacks. The ultimate goal of a small scale terrorist attack is to create chaos and mayhem.

This all leads to the oppression of the very people the terrorists claim to be representing. In their oppression they look for direction ultimately becoming pawns for the terrorist organisations. In this manner it becomes a way to exercise control and power.

The long term victims of this type of act are those who are associated by their culture, religion or even the colour of their skin. Those that the terrorists claim to represent when all they really want is to live their lives well as do most others.

 

[Strannik]

As you sow, so shall you reap

 

[Francesco]

Have a read of the article I linked to. The radical Islamists can actually justify their actions through interpretations of the Quoran. Christians would be hard pressed to find suitable quotes from the New Testament to achieve similar justifications for violent actions.

....
Regardless of moderates etc there are fundamental issues of difference in the core of the respective religions and the ability of the various religions to integrate to first world liberal democratic tradition. The spectrum of violent discontent seems to be larger in Islam than Christianity- and endorsed by the core text and many common interpretations of the same.

I gave you a kudos for doing the hard yards on this issue - drawing out a perspective that is not popular. It seems many are prepared to ascribe internal motivations of terrorists other than the obvious, what they profess through their own lips - "Allahu Akbar"!