Free energy device invention

This is going to sound crazy, and if anyone quotes the second law of thermodynamics to me I may get a little upset, but I'm going to lay it on you anyway.

Suppose you knew someone who had invented a device that made water run uphill under its own weight, without any fuel of any kind.

Suppose that person had built the device, tested it, dismantled it, and wanted to patent it so that they could (obviously) make ungodly amounts of money from the patent rights.

Suppose they asked if you wanted to invest in the device, but not directly - all this person wants is for money to be placed in trust, in a trust not controlled by them in any way, shape or form, with money released only when the device was shown to be working, and for money to be used only to pay patenting fees.

Would you invest in such a thing?

Anyway long story short, someone that I know is in exactly that situation. The story with patents is that in order to patent something, you obviously have to pay a fee to the patent office in your country. If you want to patent the device worldwide, you have to pay a fee to every patent office in every country. If, however, you show anyone who is not in the research team how the device works, then the device is deemed "unpatentable" by the patent office and no one can patent it - ever.

What then happens is a situation where people want to invest, but want to see the device, but if the inventor tries to patent it thereafter, they can't, and so the inventor doesn't show them, and they don't invest.

So my inventor friend has turned around and said "if there was money guaranteed in some account somewhere controlled by some independent party who would only release it upon lodging of a patent application, demonstration that the machine works, and if released, the money could only be used in paying for the patent, then I'd do it".

Anyway, supposing all of this is the case (it is, this man is a good friend of mine, and I think that he just wants to achieve it before he passes away - aged 70), my question apart from the obvious "would you do it" is what kind of legal vehicle/escrow/trust/whatever would you use to get this done?

Oh and because some of you are no doubt curious, the device is entirely mechanical, scalable, and supposing a dam was built with dimensions 100m x 100m x 30m high with the device placed next to it, would generate enough electricity to power the homes of 20 000 people (approx 15 megawatts). The device works by recycling water from low to high as it goes through a turbine.

Cheerios
 
Quoted without comment:

What can and cannot be patented?

What can be patented – utility patents are provided for a new, nonobvious and useful:

Process
Machine
Article of manufacture
Composition of matter
Improvement of any of the above
Note: In addition to utility patents, encompassing one of the categories above, patent protection is available for (1) ornamental design of an article of manufacture or (2) asexually reproduced plant varieties by design and plant patents.

What cannot be patented:

Laws of nature
Physical phenomena
Abstract ideas
Literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works (these can be Copyright protected). Go to the Copyright Office .
Inventions which are:
Not useful (such as perpetual motion machines); or
Offensive to public morality


US patent office website
 
That really does say a lot about the world that we live in, doesn't it. You can patent the nuclear reactor that made 8% of Japan uninhabitable, that poisoned the Pacific Ocean and millions of people, some of whom are as yet unborn, but you can't patent a machine that produces free power for everybody and would raise the standard of living for the entire planet. Disgusting.

Anyway, there are ways to get around the "perpetual" part, if you like. All you'd have to do is make it 99% efficient, and hence below unity.

Personally that law makes me really mad, by the way. Julia Gillard set aside 3 billion dollars for "green" energy, but if your energy is too green, then you can't benefit from it. What a load of pus.
 
As a dragon might say ;

"I don't believe in the product, I don't believe in you, your pitch was one of the worst I've seen, and it is for these reasons that I cannot invest, so I'm out."

However, one couldn't possibly comment.
 
Your mate could patent it. He could do this even if others have been shown it. But if he does show it around there is a risk there someone will steal his idea and beat him to it.

If it does what you describe it will solve the world energy problem and be extremely profitable. If it doesn't you may blow your investment.

Best to see an IP lawyer asap I think.
 
ocean,

if ne has a perpetual motion machine, why should they patent it?

its like drug companies patenting life saving antibiotics.

its counter productive to the betterment of mankind.

that said, the US patent office WILL allow you to patent a PPM, as long as you can prove it does what it claims. otherwise, no patent. the " we dont accept patents for PPM" mantra is due to a large number of applicarion for things like perendev motors, etc.

and considering all PPM machines violate the laws of thermodynamics, there's your answer.

if its a machine that can push water uphill, thats not a PPM, just sounds like a bloody powerful electromagnetic / frequency machine.
 
I've never understood the infatuation with a PPM. By definition, once started it never stops. Who cares?

Can it actually do work? Unless it can AMPLIFY the energy input it's market is limited to Toys'R'Us.

I live in the real world.
 
Cheers for the replies.

Just to clarify, I'm not looking for people to invest in it. This is a "how do we set it up to protect investors money yet make sure that it is there 100% for a world wide patent" question.

He is adamant that he wont disclose until there is enough money for a world wide patent, because right or wrong, he believes that if he discloses it without the application being made first, he wont be able to patent it.

Like I said, the guy is 70, but his mind is razor sharp, and since I have known him and his family for a very long time, know that he has already patented a device in the past (a kind of jet turbine mixed with a rotary motor), and based on that, believe his assessment of how patenting works.

At the end of the day, if this was a scam, why would he want the money in the hands of someone else, and the money to be released only to the patent office and only if the invention is shown to work? (he wants to pay for the aussie patent, and the money released for the rest of the globe).

Also, if the device doesn't work, why would he sink $20 000 of his own money into an aussie patent and lose it for no benefit? Makes no sense.

Oh and Aaron, as for your question "why wouldn't he be able to patent it?" - why indeed? Why would the patent office not allow you to patent a perpetual motion device, as per Token Funders post. The idea is ludicrous to me, since a perpetual motion machine that produced clean energy would be the single most important invention of the century.

I smell a rat in the patent office
 
I've never understood the infatuation with a PPM. By definition, once started it never stops. Who cares?

Can it actually do work? Unless it can AMPLIFY the energy input it's market is limited to Toys'R'Us.

I live in the real world.

A perpetual motion device is technically impossible, which means that if anyone did it, it would mean that free (or cheap) unlimited clean energy is possible. That's why.
 
If it is impossible, why are we discussing it?

Sorry. Impossible according to presently accepted theory. You know, same sort of thing as the world being flat, the Earth being the center of the universe etc.

Anyway I don't know why there is so much scorn when talking about this kind of stuff. It's almost as if people don't want it
 
If it is impossible, why are we discussing it?

perhaps like with many things that were impossible, once they were shown not to be so...............the barriers came down.

Ok, so Im a scientist and have a simple belief that u can not create or destroy energy, u can only change its perceived form.

But im also a big romantic at heart..............



Good examples of "impossibles" in other areas


the 4 minute mile in pre 1956

Human powered flight pre Wright bros

Human space travel

The need for more than 640 kb of RAM in any home PC

A cure for Aids, we are partially there

A cure of Cancer, we are partially there for some.....

Nanotech etc etc


There are thousands more at various levels


WHat was impossible in one human's mind is now conceived as FACTUAL everyday stuff in the minds of others.............


I am either blessed or cursed ( depending on one's view) that the impossible, isnt. Its just damn hard and may not happen in my lifetime

ta
rolf
 
At 70 yr's of age, I'd be happy to leave behind such a beneficial invention before I died personally, and would not be looking for financial gain.

Even if he released it freely, he would no doubt win the Nobel peace prize, that in itself is over $1.5 million. Then every interview worth millions if he so wished, awards, dinners, what ever he so desired.

Heck, I'm sure conservative right wing think tanks would be stoked to pump money to him as a thank you for ridding the need of Middle Eastern Oil. :)

I smell BS.
 
I want eternal life and 72 virgins. [every year]

Where does "wants" come into this?

If you can demonstrate an energy AMPLIFYING machine, the world will beat a path to your door. As I said, if it is simply a PPM only the toy companies will be interested. You do remember the figure 8 bulb with two contra rotating armatures don't you? Being in a vacuum the infinitesimally small energy emitted by the silver side [or was that the black side?] kept them slowly rotating. How many are still spinning today? I suspect the cheap bearings have failed by now, but how can that be? A true PPM must not stress bearings because that involves friction and without energy AMPLIFICATION that friction can't be overcome.

Believe what you wish but don't abuse non-believers.
 
. If, however, you show anyone who is not in the research team how the device works, then the device is deemed "unpatentable" by the patent office and no one can patent it - ever.

Sorry but just think about how many items are on the market and have patent pending on them. Your entitled to sell a product with this marking as soon as you file the application.

For example I have an early Kincrome folding utility knife with a different blade change method marked as such. 100's of people saw that knife before the patent offices approved the application.

Unless I see for myself water running uphill without a pump I would be considering this a scam or the delusions of a old man.
 
I've spent a fair bit of time in the old section of our State electrical utility that got these sorts of ideas hand balled to it. A lot of these ideas came across my desk and shooting them down was actually quite a fun job looking back. The "inventors" would lobby MPs (and actually convinced one who has invested and is still shopping it around in retirement...) and try to apply all sorts of pressure to get us to invest or "purchase" but the second law of thermodynamics isn't called a law for nothing.

Anyway, to answer your question, your 70 year old friend is wrong. An invention is patentable regardless of how many people it has been "shown" to. And filing initial patent applications in most jurisdictions is actually very cheap - you just have to follow up (usually) within a year with the real deal to maintain your protection but by then he would obviously be rolling in it.

And does he really need a patent application in Chile and Argentina? Wouldn't say, a patent in the US, EU and Australia supply more than enough cash flow for him?

Someone doesn't know much about patents and obviously hasn't even spoken to a patent attorney, which leaves me wondering how much they know about creating energy out of nothing...
 
Anyway, to answer your question, your 70 year old friend is wrong. An invention is patentable regardless of how many people it has been "shown" to. And filing initial patent applications in most jurisdictions is actually very cheap - you just have to follow up (usually) within a year with the real deal to maintain your protection but by then he would obviously be rolling in it.
How can I verify that your statement is correct? Personally I have no stake in this, I just want to see what his device is.

And does he really need a patent application in Chile and Argentina? Wouldn't say, a patent in the US, EU and Australia supply more than enough cash flow for him?
I've said the same thing. I personally think that just building one power plant privately without patent would make more than enough money for him and his progeny to live well pretty much forever. Then again, when people get emotionally attached to things over the course of many years, they get a tad stubborn

Someone doesn't know much about patents and obviously hasn't even spoken to a patent attorney, which leaves me wondering how much they know about creating energy out of nothing...
weirder things have happened. Like I said, I don't want anything out of it. I'm just curious, and a bit of a dreamer by nature
 
How can I verify that your statement is correct? Personally I have no stake in this, I just want to see what his device is.

I've said the same thing. I personally think that just building one power plant privately without patent would make more than enough money for him and his progeny to live well pretty much forever. Then again, when people get emotionally attached to things over the course of many years, they get a tad stubborn


weirder things have happened. Like I said, I don't want anything out of it. I'm just curious, and a bit of a dreamer by nature
The reason you can't patent a PMM in th US is so the patent office doesn't waste time and money dealing with well intentioned crackpots.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.
 
Statement :

An invention is patentable regardless of how many people it has been "shown" to. And filing initial patent applications in most jurisdictions is actually very cheap - you just have to follow up (usually) within a year with the real deal to maintain your protection but by then he would obviously be rolling in it


How can I verify that your statement is correct?

Easy. Spend a thousand bucks having a chat with a top flight patent lawyer. It might be the best money you've ever spent.....and save you oodles.
 
Easy. Spend a thousand bucks having a chat with a top flight patent lawyer. It might be the best money you've ever spent.....and save you oodles.

Plus anything said to the lawyer is confidential under professional legal privilege so it cannot be revealed to anyone at all.
 
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