Greedy Investors

Without investors:

Those houses would not exist to start with (I'm an investor and I've build property that wouldn't have existed otherwise). We'd be piling in 4, 5 to a house and the existing houses would cost so much more due to supply / demand.

OR

They'd exist and be government owned and managed rental accommodation. i.e. Commission housing. Hands up who wants to live in those? We'd also pay more taxes for this too.

I wonder if any of the houses would have been purchased by home owners? I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just making the point. Most investors (especially Jan Somers in her first few books) just buy existing homes.

I bought something that almost certainly would have been purchased by a home owner. Instead, me as the greedy investor has got it. I have personally reduced the supply of homes out there for first home buyers. But I don't delude myself and suggest that I'm helping people, or supplying housing for those less fortunate. I am buying a scarce resource to profit from. The fact that others can't afford it is good for me, because that means I can buy it instead.

There are two sides to every coin.
 
there would also be thousands of homeless because there are no rentals, and lets face it - some people are just no going to be able to get a home loan for whatever reason. I guess they could all just live at home with mum and dad forever.
 
I wonder if any of the houses would have been purchased by home owners? I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just making the point. Most investors (especially Jan Somers in her first few books) just buy existing homes.

I bought something that almost certainly would have been purchased by a home owner. Instead, me as the greedy investor has got it. I have personally reduced the supply of homes out there for first home buyers. But I don't delude myself and suggest that I'm helping people, or supplying housing for those less fortunate. I am buying a scarce resource to profit from. The fact that others can't afford it is good for me, because that means I can buy it instead.

There are two sides to every coin.

Strangely self defacing. A free exchange between voluntary and consenting adults in the market benefits both parties as I was taught in Economics 101.

A tenant needs to rent a house, not buy a house for any number of reasons, including being professionally mobile. An investor works out that the investment ratios make sense for the particular house and bears risks, including initial negative gearing that it will be offset (and some more) by future rent increases and capital appreciation.

Both tenant and investor gain from the same property although in different roles of landlord and tenant. The govt gains in making available more housing by allowing negative gearing policy to make the investment worthwhile for the investor, who will incrementally achieve self-funded retirement in old age, etc.

I will respectfully disagree that the investor is not helping the tenant at the same time as he is helping the govt and himself (and family). :D:)
 
Strangely self defacing.

It's better than the aren't-I-wonderful-that-I-invest-in-property mentality that pollutes this forum. Just because you are making money from it, and other forumites pump up your tyres, doesn't mean it's the meaning of life. And it doesn't mean you're actually helping people. Property investors are business people trying to make money. Don't make it something it's not.

I will respectfully disagree that the investor is not helping the tenant at the same time as he is helping the govt and himself (and family). :D:)

I never mentioned tenants, nor the government. I simply said that I purchased something that a homebuyer would have purchased, hence I have screwed over a homebuyer. And there is not an 'abundance' of houses out there.

Also think about how many tenants actually want to be tenants. Most do not. And many can't afford because of investors (eg. my own example) purchase properties instead. It's not necessarily right or wrong, it just is.
 
people that buy houses and rent them at a loss to others are IMO not business people. they are merely parking income from elsewhere - whatever that elsewhere is is what defines those people.
 
It's better than the aren't-I-wonderful-that-I-invest-in-property mentality that pollutes this forum. Just because you are making money from it, and other forumites pump up your tyres, doesn't mean it's the meaning of life. And it doesn't mean you're actually helping people. Property investors are business people trying to make money. Don't make it something it's not.

I don't see that type of mentality here on SS much at all. Mostly it is just people connecting and the common denominator is that we have investment houses (or commercial). I don't think I am in the business of IPs to "help people".

I never mentioned tenants, nor the government. I simply said that I purchased something that a homebuyer would have purchased, hence I have screwed over a homebuyer. And there is not an 'abundance' of houses out there.

The "screwed over" homebuyer had the same chance to buy the house you did. Why does that make you a baddy?

Also think about how many tenants actually want to be tenants. Most do not. And many can't afford because of investors (eg. my own example) purchase properties instead. It's not necessarily right or wrong, it just is.

Many, many tenants cannot afford to buy because they spend too much money on doodads, holidays, vehicles etc etc etc. It is very often a choice they make. Some tenants don't have a choice and these are the only ones I feel sorry for, if they cannot buy a house.

In the time I have been a landlord it is only in the past five years or so that we have have had the same "toys" that most of our tenants have. Food for thought perhaps?
 
property Investors Are Business People Trying To Make Money. Don't Make It Something It's Not.

I Never Mentioned Tenants, Nor The Government. I Simply Said That I Purchased Something That A Homebuyer Would Have Purchased, Hence I Have Screwed Over A Homebuyer. And There Is Not An 'abundance' Of Houses Out There.

perhaps Listen To Your Own Point, It's A Business - You're Bringing A Hell Of A Lot Of Emotion Into It And Fairness Etc. Plus As A Business There Are Always Alternatives, There's Nothing Stopping A Fhb From Buying The Property You Did, But Obviously You Decided It Was Worth More To You Than They Thought It Was To Them. Like Any Other Business, There Will Be A Cheaper Product That Will Suit Them. I Have Expensive Products On Offer In My Business That Some Customers Bulk At - I Make No Apologies For That. I Also Have Cheap Products They Can Buy Instead. Whilst Supply Of Properties May Be Slower Than A Consumer Good, It's Not A Finite Product.


Also Think About How Many Tenants Actually Want To Be Tenants. Most Do Not. And Many Can't Afford Because Of Investors (eg. My Own Example) Purchase Properties Instead. It's Not Necessarily Right Or Wrong, It Just Is.

Investors Are More Limited In Price Than Emotional Fhb's. Plus What Would It Be Like If Investors Gave Up? Are You Under The Impression That Every Person Out There Both Wants And Can Afford To Be A Home Buyer If There Were No Investors Around, And A Rental Market Then Wouldn't Exist?
. . . . .
 
JackC:
It's better than the aren't-I-wonderful-that-I-invest-in-property mentality that pollutes this forum. Just because you are making money from it, and other forumites pump up your tyres, doesn't mean it's the meaning of life. And it doesn't mean you're actually helping people. Property investors are business people trying to make money. Don't make it something it's not.

.....and I would ask you why it is you find this so offensive, such an insult to your interpretation of the meaning of life?

-Property investors are a small, very small proportion of (an economic part of)society.

-I maybe wrong on this but for me, and I think for many others, we want financial independence for ourselves, investing in property for some of us is a fine place to start on that journey.

Are you saying a person's desire for financial independence is...not part of the meaning of life?

-How can you interprete what another person considers their (own), version of the meaning of life?

-Wanting to be the very best we can in a field that gives us that opportunity?

-You betchya I support, encourage and offer what assistance I can to folks that might have the courage and curiosity to drop by this forum, they are paving their own way.

-If you think somewhere in your mind (I) am screwing over lower income, the poorer socio economic folks than you are making judgments based on poor research and no evidence. I am from lower socio economic origins. You don't get much further origins than the gutter, apart from not being alive. The very thing you seem to condemning is that which gave me opportunity.

-Everything I have achieved, scrambled to gather together, worked and saved has been because I consider the meaning of life for me to be worthy of something like financial independence and self sufficiency.

-The better off I am the more opportunity I have to help leg up others. That is part of the composition of the meaning of my life.

-I am particularly wonderful, I am very proud of what I have achieved and run and provide.

-Air in tyres is good, it means as long as the engine has some grunt, some fuel and someone that has a bit of desire and idea of how to drive and steer can get somewhere. Going somewhere is good, not all of us choose to go, or go the same place but that's the fun of life. Meaning of life is also having fun for me, god knows I am having so much fun!

-If you are so hellbent on stopping people get screwn (new word?) over, go forth and educate and inspire them to an idea that they be the best they possibly can be. To learn, to be curious about life, to seek, to travel, to work harder but more importantly smarter...to conduct themselves with as much dignity as they can, to love fellow man and contribute to society.

What on earth are you doing here? You have work to do Jack!:)
 
Rugrat:
JackC - I have to wonder who you are and why you visit this forum...
__________________

They slipped in in the stealth of night, a few...quietly, industriously working their craft....explaining to us the meaning of life.

John Cleese and the boys did it much better.

I wonder if they will accompany me to Swaziland next summer and help the aids orphans, then up to Sydney to meet the Dalai Lama and do some fundraising for Tibet? Many hands make light work-no?
 
Having been a renter (I have only owned my house for a year), I can assure you I would have been screwed without property investers. I would not have been able to move away to attend uni. I would not have been able to move to canberra for my DH's career. Rather I would have been stuck at home with my parents and five other siblings (which would have been interesting seeing as my parents have until recently been renters all of their lives - so who knows where we would be?). Basically My life that I know (and love) would be completely different - an alternate reality.
 
...the thing is the Jacks of the world can squeal and post to their own drumbeat, but it still doesn't achieve anything.. and from Jim (and a few mates) to the Jacks, said far more elonquently than I ever will:

“I used to say, “Things cost too much.” Then my teacher straightened me out on that by saying, “The problem isn’t that things cost too much. The problem is that you can’t afford it.” That’s when I finally understood that the problem wasn’t “it” – the problem was “me”.”


- “The philosophy of the rich versus the poor is this: The rich invest their money and spend what is left; the poor spend their money and invest what is left.”

- “I remember saying to my mentor, “If I had more money, I would have a better plan.” He quickly responded, “I would suggest that if you had a better plan, you would have more money.” You see, it’s not the amount that counts; it’s the plan that counts.”

- “To become financially independent you must turn part of your income into capital; turn capital into enterprise; turn enterprise into profit; turn profit into investment; and turn investment into financial independence.”

“Financial independence is the ability to live from the income of your own personal resources.”
...Jim Rohn.

James Harvey Robinson:

Each of us is great insofar as we perceive and act on the infinite possibilities which lie undiscovered and unrecognized about us..


Fernando Flores:

Great work is done by people who are not afraid to be great.

"Having conceived of his purpose, a man should mark a straight
pathway to its achievement, looking neither to the left or the right." --
James Allen

"No one can cheat you out of ultimate success but yourself."
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson.

"My philosophy of life is that if we make up our mind what we are going
to make of our lives, and then work hard toward that goal, we never
lose, somehow we win out." -- Ronald Reagan

"He who conquers others is strong; he who conquers himself is mighty."
Lao Tzu

"What you can do or dream you can do, begin it; boldness has genius,
power and magic in it." -- Johann Von Goethe

"Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving
his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental
attitude."
-- Thomas Jefferson

"I like thinking big. If you're going to be thinking anything, you might as
well think big." -- Donald Trump

Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must be
overcome."
-- Samuel Johnson

"A business owner can become rich exponentially and people who work
for wages become rich incrementally." -- Robert T. Kiyosaki

"I learned that good judgement comes from experience and that
experience grows out of mistakes." -- Omar Bradley

"Destiny is no matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It is not a thing
to be waited for, but a thing to be achieved." -- William Jennings Bryan

"We must either find a way or make one." -- Hannibal

"If you don't design your own life plan, chances are you'll fall into
someone else's plan. And guess what they have planned for you? Not
much!" -- Jim Rohn

"The big challenge is to become all that you have the possibility of
becoming. You cannot believe what it does to the human spirit to
maximize your human potential and stretch yourself to the limit." -- Jim
Rohn

"Lazy men are soon poor; hard workers get rich. A wise youth makes
hay while the sun shines, but what a shame to see a lad who sleeps
away his hour of opportunity." Proverbs 10:4-5 The Living Bible

"An average person with average talent, ambition and education, can
outstrip the most brilliant genius in our society, if that person has clear,
focused goals."
-- Brian Tracy

"The Creator gave us the complete, unchallengable right of prerogative
over the one thing, and only thing we own, our mind." -- Napoleon Hill

"We derive no comfort because important people, vocal people, or
great numbers of people agree with us. Nor do we derive comfort if
they don't. A public opinion poll is no substitute for thought." -- Warren
Buffett

"The man says, 'If I had a fortune, I'd take good care of it. But I only
have a paycheck and I don't know where it all goes.' Wouldn't you love
to have him running your company?" -- Jim Rohn

"If you go to work on your goals, your goals will go to work on you. If
you go to work on your plan, your plan will go to work on you. Whatever
good things we build end up building us." -- Jim Rohn


"Human beings, by changing the inner attitudes of their minds, can
change the outer aspects of their lives." -- William James

"Drive thy business or it will drive thee." -- Ben Franklin

"Money always flows to the leader... If you want more money, simply
become more of a leader. --Robert Kiyosaki

"The barriers are not erected which say to aspiring talents and
industry, "Thus far and no further." -- Ludwig van Beethoven

"All growth is a leap in the dark, a spontaneous and unpremeditated act
without benefit of experience." -- Henry Miller

"Patience, persistence and perspiration make an unbeatable
combination for success." -- Napoleon Hill

"The biggest mistake we could ever make in our lives is to think we
work for anybody but ourselves." -- Brian Tracy

"You can build any future you want if you let yourself grow, have faith in
your dreams or visions, and become open to new ideas."
-- John F. Wasik

"If you want to get richer quicker, then solve bigger problems!"
-- Robert Kiyosaki (paraphrased)

"We know the only fish that goes with the flow is a dead fish."
-- Sarah Palin

"The path to success is to take massive consistent action."
-- Anthony Robbins (more)

I love this game so much
......Our Obsession.
 
Yep, renter here too, but that will change when I decide where I would like to settle down and live, ...my dad was a renter, well, he he never actually paid any rent, he thought he had the right to steal, take and take and not pay his way in life, the old world owed him......thank goodness I learnt off my own inbuilt integrity and have never missed a bill payment or rent payment in my life.

My mum bought her first house, at 60+yo while saving from a very small meagre income.
 
Having been a renter (I have only owned my house for a year), I can assure you I would have been screwed without property investers. I would not have been able to move away to attend uni. I would not have been able to move to canberra for my DH's career. Rather I would have been stuck at home with my parents and five other siblings (which would have been interesting seeing as my parents have until recently been renters all of their lives - so who knows where we would be?). Basically My life that I know (and love) would be completely different - an alternate reality.

Good point. I guess those bemoaning property investors must all live with their parents until the point they can buy their first property (and of course their parents own the house they're in). Obviously everyone in Aust. should do this too, otherwise there would be a need for..... shock horror.... rental properties.

Wouldn't be fair to criticise property investing whilst at the same time making use of it's product on the other hand right?
 
This debate reminds me of a newsletter I get. One I recieved last year explains alot to why some people even on limited incomes and from poor backgrounds can lift themselves up yo be financially independant and vice versa. I like to show this to my young relatives who need a reality check with their finances.
It is from a fellow called David Wright who sells a product called "simply budgets". I will state now that I do not know/work or are related to him, I just have his software and get his newsletters. Anyway the quote from his newsletter is below.



"HARD IS EASY BUT EASY IS HARD!


When you finished growing up and began to take control of the direction of your life, you had a lot of choices to make. Those choices led you to where you are today and what motivated you to make them goes right to the core of who you are and what you believe in.

Now unless I'm really way off the mark, I would suggest that the desire for pleasure, the avoidance of pain and the goal to have a rewarding life would have to be fairly high up on the list of influences that have shaped your life. Of course there are lots of other unique factors that go to make you 'you', but these three are fairly universal.

I used the title 'Hard is Easy but Easy is Hard' to highlight just how crazy life is. If you decide you want an easy life with no financial stress, clean comfortable surroundings and the ability to make choices to do what you like when you like, then the path you have to take and the decisions you have to make are NOT easy. An easy life is hard to achieve!

In contrast, if you just decided to take it easy after leaving school, then it's quite possible that you are living a harder life now than you would have preferred. In fact, the easier the life people seek, the harder it gets in a lot of ways. I would suggest that it is easy to end up living an extremely hard life sleeping in the gutter or on park benches and it's much harder to afford an easy life in a clean comfortable home with all the trappings and luxuries around you.

The work required to achieve the easy life is HARD, but the easy alternative is possibly much HARDER to endure. "

I love it... An easy life is hard to achieve
 
The amount of money is very different to its value.


When you buy a house, you are buying something that someone else cannot buy.

When you buy some shares, you are buying something that someone else cannot buy.

Why do you think like that Jack,not everyone buys shares just because the person next to him can't purchase the equities,they buy them because they think they will get a return,pure and simple,property is no different-nor anything else in the investing world , but that takes courage,high level short term risk taking,and most of all optimism. and being able to see through all smoke and mirrors:)..imho willair..
 
I wonder if any of the houses would have been purchased by home owners? I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just making the point. Most investors (especially Jan Somers in her first few books) just buy existing homes.

I bought something that almost certainly would have been purchased by a home owner. Instead, me as the greedy investor has got it. I have personally reduced the supply of homes out there for first home buyers. But I don't delude myself and suggest that I'm helping people, or supplying housing for those less fortunate. I am buying a scarce resource to profit from. The fact that others can't afford it is good for me, because that means I can buy it instead.

There are two sides to every coin.

True, I'm looking out for numero uno first (as I would expect anyone else to do so, I believe it's your own responsbility to yourself and those you care about). My community comes third.

However, surely you agree I'm 'helping others' just about as much as I'm 'intentionally making it hard for others' too.

I feel your analogy is akin to me picking up 50 dollars found on the footpath. Sure, by picking it up I'm removing the opportunity for the general population to pick it up but it's hardly an evil act. It's just that others aren't in the right place to pick it up, can't see it or don't want to exert the effort required to get it.

If the government wanted to solve this issue (mainly a lack of supply problem) then some artificial economic incentives to make new development more viable would be a good start (such as zero stamp duty or something similar). You can't just let 'the market' figure it or demand charitable people to pick up the slack.

In all seriousness things aren't that bad - Australia just got rated worlds #2 best place to live by the UN and that takes into account stuff like the living situation. Things must be pretty good if one of our bigger problems is 'I can't afford a large place close to everything' (and yes on a global scale even your average 2 bedder in Melbourne is considered large). A suburban house here is a mansion overseas.

No wonder property is expensive, so many people want to live here.
 
I bought 3 properties last year. 1 off an elderly relative, 2 from REA's.

The 2 from REA's had been on the market for months, and had been picked over by many many FHB's as they are in that price bracket. I picked them up at a small discount because at the time no one wanted them. One had an existing tenant who has stayed on. The other was a DUMP that I have fixed up.

If no one else wanted them, how have I deprived a FHB of a house?
 
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