Haves and have nots

I'll repeat myself again, this will never happen and it shouldn't. I am completely aware that there are always going to be renters, therefore there is always going to be a need for investors. But having said that, there are lots of people who rent but who would like to own their own home. And they are finding this more difficult because of increased house prices and also lack of supply. One reason (and this is just one reason of many) that there is a lack of supply is that property investors are taught to buy and never sell. It was Jan Somers herself (yes, I can and do read) who said that she has only ever sold two properties. She obviously has a decent number of properties, and these will probably never be available to home buyers. Good, bad or indifferent, that's the way it is.


Timmy, Respect to you, but please, what is with the venom "Don't flatter yourselves that I would actually lose sleep over the fact that I may have offended any of you".

For my part anyway I have not flattered myself - not for one milli second.
I hadn't even thought about it.

A couple of points:

I think the proportion of renters and investors is about the same (maybe 35%renters 65% buyers) in 2006 as it was in 2000, in 1995, in 1980.

If that is so, where is the logic that investors are taking properties away from buyers?
PPOR Buyers will almost always pay more for any given property than an investor. On that basis, the PPOR buyer would have first pick of almost everything, and actually have an inflationary effect on property.
Very often the true investor is buying stuff that others have rejected.
Does this increase the scarcity?

If there is scarcity it applies to both PPOR buyers and investors too.
Will the prudent investor outbid the others to secure a property? Not often. Especially in a non-boom time like the present.

Many on this forum are just waiting at present; keeping their powder dry.

This has the effect of freeing up property for the PPOR buyer; who is also finding it difficult to make the figures add up.

Property investment is like a lot of things in life.
People who use their heads, often end up with more than people who don't.

Darwinian theory. It works in every facet of life on this earth.
 
Timmy,

I think the proportion of renters and investors is about the same (maybe 35%renters 65% buyers) in 2006 as it was in 2000, in 1995, in 1980.

If that is so, where is the logic that investors are taking properties away from buyers?
**************************************
Dear Giddo,

1. This is also the same point which I have made in the earlier post.

2. Timmy has similarly not replied to this same observation.

3. It has been suggested that this same precentage ratio of owners-occupiers(70%) and renters (30%) across different time periods, is largely due to current planning norms used in conjunction with the Australian Govt's present deliberate housing policies both at the Federal and State Govt levels, as well as an direct outcome of their respective Federal/State Govt's on-going housing polices, especially with regards to their annual land releases and the amount of stamp duties charged on the land/property transfers, land tax levies imposition etc.

4. For your further comments/discussion, please.

5. Thank you.


regards,
Kenneth KOH
 
Timmy,

Great post mate, good to have you on board. I like the alternative views as it sharpens my own thinking. It certainly has stirred up some out-of-the-box kind of thinking and discussion. The stuff the other guys are saying makes sense too. The fact that the proportion of renters to buyers is pretty constant through history suggests investors aren't progressively building their share of the housing market. Its just they're increasing the absolute number of properties held by investors, but their share as a percent is constant.

Affordability, as already discussed, is also a moot point given affordability for first home owners hasn't really changed over time either. Sure, certain suburbs have now become out of reach of first home owners, but that has always been the case. As much as I would like to, I can't afford to buy a house at Kirribilli or even Balmain, but in years gone by first home owners probably could have (maybe many many years ago for those suburbs). The edge of town moves out and so to do the hunting grounds for first home buyers on moderate incomes. That's just the economics of a growing city. You trade up your PPOR over time to where you ultimately would like to be and in doing so creep into the inner sanctum.

Anyway, thanks for stimulating this discussion. Just go easy on us developers alright, we're not as thick skinned as we make out! ;)

Cheers,
Michael.
 
Hi All,

Last time I went to the Property Expo, John Residex Edwards was saying that every generation will solve the problem (referring to property). This comment is in relation to people talks about affordability and how the new generations will do to buy a PPOR or IP.

Very powerful and realistic estatement from John.:eek:

I recently came from a trip that took me for several EU capitals. Some how, we can make the analogy that they are in what could be our future when referring to land availability. Current EU generation has solved the housing issue for them. They pay the same AUS$500k, AUS$600k, AUS$700k, etc. for their properties. The difference is that their properties are 17m2, 20m2, 40m2 etc. There is not garage, no lift, etc. But, because that is the way it is, every one seems to be happy but, the french of course :D But, that is another story.

Other countries like SIN, give long and short leases on the property with the addition to JV with Super.

Cheers,

James.
 
I'll repeat myself again, this will never happen and it shouldn't. I am completely aware that there are always going to be renters, therefore there is always going to be a need for investors. But having said that, there are lots of people who rent but who would like to own their own home. And they are finding this more difficult because of increased house prices and also lack of supply. One reason (and this is just one reason of many) that there is a lack of supply is that property investors are taught to buy and never sell.

don't worry about us timmy - we don't lose sleep over you either.

could you please tell me where you have said the above quote before? i can't find it in this thread where you straight-out blamed investors for first home owners not being able to buy properties.

it is good to see you mellowing, and explaining your thought process, and trying to see both sides of the coin, instead of just lumping "it" at investors and small developers (who are providing more housing) for a change.

at least we've come a long way as property owners from the slum landlords of 100 years ago. doesn't mean any less people can own tho - timmy, what do you think the real reasons behind first home owners having trouble buying? share you thoughts.

so - all ask again - where do you fit in. investor? small developer? shares?
 
Re: Affordability

I don't understand this affordability thing.

When I look at what the average weekly ordinary time earnings are ($1000+) and what you can still buy sub 200k in Brisbane (units <10k CBD and plenty of houses a bit further out) I'm wondering why is this not affordable? If the average household income is in the 100k range then thats just 2 years gross income?

Is someone forcing you to buy a new house and land package or to live in Sydney? Please explain...
 
Well I enjoy reading Timmy's posts. I think a conversation is always more interesting and educational when the participants have different viewpoints and experiences to share. I learn more from people who have opposing points of view to myself, then I do from people who already agree with me.

I personally don't see anything offensive in anything that has been said by Timmy in any of his posts, and some of it I even tend to agree with. Lizzie, maybe you have a thin skin or maybe you have had people say detracting things about investors and investment too often and are taking it personally. The fact is, that the majority of non-investors do think evil thoughts about us greedy landlords, and blame us for everything from interest rate rises to the lack of affordable housing and the rising . Getting offended about what others think of you or say about you is a waste of time IMO, unless it is defamatory of course. Just think of water off a duck's back or maybe try to see his point of view and then argue against it if you don't agree with it. I don't think there is a single successful person who hasn't had to deal with detractors.

Anyway, I for one hope that Timmy does keep posting and sharing his opinions.
 
(I will try and keep my posts in the "spirit of the forum" as much as possible)


Of course the gap is widening. And unfortunately it's the haves who are taking from the have nots. For every IP that an investor buys, that's another potential PPOR that is taken out of the market. So the supply of potential PPOR's for a home buyer is actually decreasing. Buying an IP is great for the investor, because not only does it allow the investor to increase their wealth, it also prevents someone else from owning that property, and hence increases the investor's wealth relative to the renter.

This will never happen, and it shouldn't. But for first homebuyers to be given a decent go, investors would need to sell off and stop buying IP's. The fact is, property is affordable. Someone always owns each and every single property out there. If property in Toorak (Melbourne) was unaffordable, no one would live there. If a first home buyer goes to an auction and just misses out on an "expensive" and "slighly unaffordable" property, that property was affordable for somebody (perhaps an investor).

We can talk about unaffordability for the rest of our lives. But there are always going to be renters, there are always going to be investors, and that's just the way things are. It's tragic that some people will NEVER have the chance to own their own home, but that's not what this forum is about. (This is not a negative) but this forum is about increasing the number of renters in our society. Without renters, this forum would cease to exist.

I think the following quote I saw recently sums it up:

"Capitalism is the uneven distribution of wealth. Communism is the even distribution of poverty."

Just my thoughts, feel free to comment, criticise, slander, threaten or ostracise me or my comments at your leisure.


Actually Timmy you will find it is the other way around - the have nots are taking away from the haves by virtue of the fact that the haves are needing to absorb the cost of providing increasingly unaffordable housing at rental discounts to the the have nots (think land taxes, council rates, insurances, maintenance and building costs etc).

I think the problem is the have nots are increasing their expectation of what they deserve whilst doing nothing.

Tim
 
I personally don't see anything offensive in anything that has been said by Timmy in any of his posts
What Timmy has said is not at question. The way he has said it is.
The arrogance of this forum is breathtaking.

...

Grow up for goodness sake.

(But who am I kidding? This is a property investment forum. I suppose all most of you are interested in is your property portfolio, everything everything else is "too hard".)
 
I don't understand this affordability thing.

When I look at what the average weekly ordinary time earnings are ($1000+) and what you can still buy sub 200k in Brisbane (units <10k CBD and plenty of houses a bit further out) I'm wondering why is this not affordable? If the average household income is in the 100k range then thats just 2 years gross income?

Is someone forcing you to buy a new house and land package or to live in Sydney? Please explain...

The affordability ratio may not have changed greatly over the years and maybe its at all time lows, but we do live in a different world now to the one where my parents bought the family home.

Basically there is far more attack on peoples incomes these days. My parents had the same TV for 15 years. Sure new models come out, but there wasn’t a huge benefit in upgrading. Now the norm is for probably 3 TVs (upgraded every 5 years), a computer and laptop (upgrades every 2 years), internet connection, foxtel and all the other techno gadgets designed to thin out your wallet.

If we lived the lifestyle of 30 years ago affordability wouldn’t be an issue. However the cost of that on our economy would be devastating imo.

I often do wonder where we are headed and think we are moving to a larger rental based market, where people can easily move as their employment changes. Perhaps in time we can expect less capital gains and yield becomes king?

GB
 
Basically there is far more attack on peoples incomes these days. My parents had the same TV for 15 years. Sure new models come out said:
I think this quote is exactly the problem for many people. I just think that people who want to get ahead don't follow the "norm" pack. We bought a plasma a year ago but prior to that we had a Cash Converters tv, worked fine. When we were first married with a couple of kids, hubby would spend all day working on our PPOR or our IP and come home and say "can I buy a beer". Mostly the answer was "we have $15 in our account until Tuesday, sorry no beer".

It is only now in our mid 40s that we can splash out a bit, but the bank still holds our privates pretty firmly. Sure, we could have sold our IP and spent up on consumer goods, but we had our sights set further ahead.

My first house (when I was on about $7K a year) cost me $46K. I was lucky I worked in a bank and could afford a slightly more expensive house than if I didn't work there, but if I hadn't had the discount, I would just have had to buy further out. I still would have bought a house because I was driven. I couldn't afford anything bigger or better. It was 7 squares in size. I just don't think many young people today would be happy with a tiny house with an old kitchen and bathroom like we had.

Actually my very first purchase was at about 19 - half share in a unit with my dad. Then I bought a quarter share of a house with my dad, brother and ex-boyfriend, so I had a real drive to buy real estate.

Nobody is holding a gun to my head and making me spend money on new tvs or upgrades, or foxtel. We have those things now ONLY because we chose not to have them when we were younger.

Wylie
 
The role of the first home owner grant is more complex than many people might think: my 40 yo sister is back living with the parents after a marriage breakdown, having always been a renter (so eligible for FHS grant). Nether she nor the parents are really happy with this situation, but they are putting up with it, and life is not too unpleasant for them. She has a poorly-paid job which she loves, and so could only hope to buy something very modest now. Trouble is she has a dog, which effectively rules out living in a unit. She could buy a cheap property and rent it to help build equity, and so trade herself up to a decent place over time, but the FHS grant stops her from thinking along these lines. I suspect that the $7K up front would be more than offset over time by the longer term benefits of getting a rental property and building from there. What do others think?
 
i hate this old haves and have-nots argument.

There is no such thing as have nots....it's choose nots!

People choose to sit around and lament about high prices....but they also choose not to look further than their own back yard for something that is within their price range.

People can pick up properties for $100k...may not be in the middle of sydney...but...what the hell does a first home buyer expect for goodness sake? There is something called starting at the bottom and working your way up..what makes them think they're so special that they need best house in the best street in the best suburb for their first purchase?

And...what the hell is wrong with buying a unit as a starting point instead of a house? You can pick up a good 2br unit in the St George/Sutherland Shire for around $300k...is that really so unaffordable?

Give me a break...
 
Not sure about that :) My sister in law seems to be doing fine..... a reputed 7 figure income comes to mind......

Cheers,

The Y-man

7 Figures... GP ...

I'd be suprised . have to be working very long hours, country charging well above standard rates , and even then I'd doubt it , and if they did , they have HIC all over them .

If not , let me know...;)

6-700 is doo-able ( I don't ) if you work very long hours

See Change
 
I take on board your thoughts very seriously Timmy.

Thankyou for stating them, my interpretation for me is that as a property investor I surround myself with, (and be very grateful for) all the key people that help me in my choice to be what/where I am....what I have largely not done is thank and acknowledge and respect the people who don't choose to follow the path I skip along.

My world is the wonderful place it is for me, partly because some people, (for whatever reason-s) do not do what I do.
As a human being I choose to acknowledge that and be eternally grateful.... there but for the grace of God could go I. I am no better or worse than others, accumulating property is great and good on me for doing it and choosing this path, but it will be at others expense, which is not wrong or right, it just is.

I am very interested in any thoughts or expressions you have to share Timmy. Please continue posting.
 
(I will try and keep my posts in the "spirit of the forum" as much as possible)


Of course the gap is widening. And unfortunately it's the haves who are taking from the have nots. For every IP that an investor buys, that's another potential PPOR that is taken out of the market.

...

Just my thoughts, feel free to comment, criticise, slander, threaten or ostracise me or my comments at your leisure.

Thanks, I will...

It's our fault they don't have a home?....oh, come on!.....never heard of the saying "wealth doesn’t suffer fools and the lazy".....no?...good, cause neither have I.....but it makes wonderful sense...

I for one, WILL NEVER feel responsible that my ambitions for accumulating IP's in order to create wealth (for whatever reasons I feel like) is according to you, at the expense of the have Nots....wake up man, they are HAVE NOTS who have the chance to become HAVES....its out there, all of it, for them, opportunities abound...

We take houses away from them?.....what a shocker of a defeatist attitude.....and how do investors affect their ability to buy land and build?....how do investors affect their inability to service properties?...how do investors affect their spending habits?.....I could go on and on….face it, they are where they are because of the choices they made in life….different choices, different outcomes…….

Here’s a tip for self-doubters like yourself – stop reading the Communist Manifesto so much and start reading “10 million in property in 10 years”….oh yeah, and get a Ferrari up ya!


George "educate yourself, change your life" Grubar
 
George, Timmy's point was not that your ambitions to accumulate IPs are at the expense of the Have Nots.

His point was that your ambitions depend on the Have Nots continuing to be Have Nots. Without them and their rent money, your strategy cannot succeed.

I'm not criticising this state of affairs, but before you have a go at the Have Nots, remember that you, and many others depend on them!

- Dave99
 
Timmy said:
(I will try and keep my posts in the "spirit of the forum" as much as possible)

Of course the gap is widening.

One of the seldom-remarked successes that we had in the last boom was that rents were kept relatively low while prices skyrocketed. Because investors had this 'capital growth' mindset, they were willing to buy properties that only recovered about 1/3 of their costs (approx 3% yield).

This compares with the late 1980s where rents and prices rose rapidly relative to people's wages (note the Accord between the ALP and the unions actually reduced real wages for a couple of years).

If I was a lowish income earner who was renting, I'd prefer the first. Low rents = low living costs and greater opportunity (although not always exploited) to save and invest (possibly including real estate)!

For every IP that an investor buys, that's another potential PPOR that is taken out of the market. So the supply of potential PPOR's for a home buyer is actually decreasing. Buying an IP is great for the investor, because not only does it allow the investor to increase their wealth, it also prevents someone else from owning that property, and hence increases the investor's wealth relative to the renter.

That is no different to families who buy homes. They tend to settle down and may hold the house for years (being less transient than renters), so they also lock houses out of the market for years.

But whereas owner-occupiers buy to house themselves, investors buy to house others.

Who is being the most greedy?

In a perverse way you could argue that the owner occupier is. However I am not willing to press this point very far because in both cases the house is being occupied, which I regard as a good.

In contrast, any empty house is at best bad economics and at worst almost immoral.

One could argue that seldom-used holiday houses (for example) are socially unjust since they deny a home to a local who needs it (rural coastal towns often have low wages and high house prices, so affordabilty is terrible). Unoccupied houses (and vacant land held by speculators in urban areas) are economically inefficient as they reduce supply unnecessarily for a given level of stock (which artificially inflates prices).

In both cases it is essential that the tax system treat unused non-income producing property punitively and income-producing property more liberally to maximise asset utilisation and thus efficiency. To a large extent it already does, but even higher taxes of holiday houses and unused vacant land in urban areas would not stifle productive enterprise. On this (as well as support for an inheritance tax and CGT on the family home) I am a high-taxing socialist, but only if it permits lower taxes for productive sectors.

This will never happen, and it shouldn't. But for first homebuyers to be given a decent go, investors would need to sell off and stop buying IP's.

The best thing about investors is that when they buy, the houses don't disappear. As mentioned before, made available for others. And there's a strong financial incentive for ensuring occupation, rather than leaving them empty.

Instead of a $200k house (rental value $200pw) being available to someone with $30-50k cash and $400pw spare (ie a buyer), they can be available to anyone with $800 bond money and $200pw (ie a renter).

Is the person on a low income more likely to have (a) $800 for a bond or (b) $40k for a house deposit?

(a) of course! The bank would just laugh at a person wanting a house for $800 + $200pw. But an investor won't because (rightly or wrongly) they reckon that capital growth long-term will make their -ve gearing loss acceptable.

Betting on unrealised capital growth may well be a delusion, but renters are vastly better off if investors hold such a delusion. Otherwise investors would insist on +ve cashflow and go on a buying strike until this happens.

And what would happen if investors stopped buying?

The answer is that the supply of affordable rental housing would dry up.

Yes, first home buyers might 'get a go', so they're happy.

But what about the renters?

Their rents go up since supply is down. More people occupying their own homes means fewer are available to be let to others. So there's less choice, supply falls and rents rise.

What are the implications of this on fairness, social justice, housing for all and a decent society?

The prospective homebuyer typically has this choice: rent vs buy

So they get to keep a decent roof over their head at least, even if they can't afford to buy. And they'd have a surplus to invest in other areas, so their total wealth might not necessarily be less than if they bought their own home.

The renter has this choice: rental house vs cardboard box/tent/caravan park

Pretty dire, eh? And those other options aren't really acceptable for a fair and civilised society are they?

If I was a welfare policy-maker (interested more in whether the population was adequately housed than its ownership status) and had to choose between favouring renters and favouring buyers, I'd give renters the benefit of the doubt.

And if the government refuses to provide sufficient commission homes, then this job must fall to private investors.

The more numerous investors are, and the more they believe that 3-4% yields are acceptable, then the more affordable rents should be. Which, for anyone genuinely concerned about social equity, cannot be a bad thing.

Peter
 
His point was that your ambitions depend on the Have Nots continuing to be Have Nots. Without them and their rent money, your strategy cannot succeed.

I'm not criticising this state of affairs, but before you have a go at the Have Nots, remember that you, and many others depend on them!

- Dave99
***********************
Dear Dave99,

1. I agree with you that how can/do we talk about the "rich" without the "poors";- after all, they are actually 2 different sides on the same coin.

2. However, some times in life we have to make a choice and decide for ourselves: "where would I rather be in my own life?:- to be rich or to be poor?"

3. To each his/her own and may he/she be happy and contented with his/her own life decision and able to be responsible enough to live out one's life decision and bear the full consequences of the decision whatsoever the outcome of the life decision may be.

4. Now, each game has its basic game rule.

5. The basic game rule in Capitalism is to make as much money as one can, and not one which is right or wrong, fair or unfair, as AlexLee will probably tell you.

6. In Socialism, we speak about the social equality and its inequalities, fairness vs unfairness while in both religions and ethics, we talk about
"right" and "wrong" to do/not to do certain things.

7. So, I am wondering what is the actual "game" which we are talking here? or rather which Timmy is actually referring to, in this property investing forum, in the first place?

8. Thank you.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH
 
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