High speed rail in Australia?
- Thread starter Ed Barton
- Start date
That is part of what I meant last week when referring to more infrastructure across the country and getting the population to move out of Sydney and Melbourne.
I cant say whether it would be economical to build the super fast train system or not, but I would sometimes rather get onto a train at my closest station, access an interstate train and travel wherever without all the crap that goes along with catching planes these days. Last year I left the Melbourne CBD at 2:30 in the afternoon and got home in Brisbane at 9pm. We spent five hours inside the M airport, two hours in the air, ten minutes at B airport and another hour in traffic on Airport Drive before getting onto the nearest road. Go figure.
I also wonder whether it is worth using trains rather than trucks to transport crops around the country.
I cant say whether it would be economical to build the super fast train system or not, but I would sometimes rather get onto a train at my closest station, access an interstate train and travel wherever without all the crap that goes along with catching planes these days. Last year I left the Melbourne CBD at 2:30 in the afternoon and got home in Brisbane at 9pm. We spent five hours inside the M airport, two hours in the air, ten minutes at B airport and another hour in traffic on Airport Drive before getting onto the nearest road. Go figure.
I also wonder whether it is worth using trains rather than trucks to transport crops around the country.
Nice work Ed. Should be an interesting discussion.
I don't want to see fast rail if it needs to be subsidised by taxpayers. And I don't think it would be profitable enough for private companies to do.
There are issues involving the airlines, as in if it was subsidised, then what right does anyone have in subsidising fast trains to take away business from an already struggling, but also cheap and efficient service conducted by private business?
I could see one place where it could work. A new international airport at Williamtown, then high speed train connecting via Newcastle and Gosford to Sydney. This new airport would service northern NSW, thus relieving pressure from Sydney airport, and the high speed train would also relieve traffic pressure from the F3 freeway. Another bonus is the airlines wouldn't lose business from that route.
From the other thread,.......
Airlines service the Sydney to Brisbane to Melbourne route now and do a fine job at not much cost. Why would anyone subsidise fast trains? It's not like it's essential like roads, standard rail, and everything else you mentioned. Plus the airlines are doing it tough already. Take away half their business and they'd be doing it tougher. The government has no right to do that.
Just because I said I'm already subsidising public transport in the city, doesn't mean I don't think that's a good idea! It is. As is all the other things you mentioned. However I don't want to subsidise a fast train, as it's not essential. It's purely a luxury that should only exist if it's profitable, and if it's profitable, then simply let a private company do it.
See ya's.
I don't want to see fast rail if it needs to be subsidised by taxpayers. And I don't think it would be profitable enough for private companies to do.
There are issues involving the airlines, as in if it was subsidised, then what right does anyone have in subsidising fast trains to take away business from an already struggling, but also cheap and efficient service conducted by private business?
I could see one place where it could work. A new international airport at Williamtown, then high speed train connecting via Newcastle and Gosford to Sydney. This new airport would service northern NSW, thus relieving pressure from Sydney airport, and the high speed train would also relieve traffic pressure from the F3 freeway. Another bonus is the airlines wouldn't lose business from that route.
From the other thread,.......
Airlines service the Sydney to Brisbane to Melbourne route now and do a fine job at not much cost. Why would anyone subsidise fast trains? It's not like it's essential like roads, standard rail, and everything else you mentioned. Plus the airlines are doing it tough already. Take away half their business and they'd be doing it tougher. The government has no right to do that.
Just because I said I'm already subsidising public transport in the city, doesn't mean I don't think that's a good idea! It is. As is all the other things you mentioned. However I don't want to subsidise a fast train, as it's not essential. It's purely a luxury that should only exist if it's profitable, and if it's profitable, then simply let a private company do it.
See ya's.
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I grow about 6 to 9 thousand tonnes of grain a year. Most of my grain goes by truck. It's simply economics.
I load it onto a truck on the farm, and it goes straight to the end user, usually a feed mill in Newcastle or Sydney or Brisbane. It gets loaded once, and unloaded once, It gets weighed and tested once at the enduser.
To send by rail, I have to firstly truck it to the grain silo in town, 17 ks. It gets weighed, tested and unloaded, then put into silo storage. Then has to be loaded onto a train and sent to the city, to another storage site where it again has to be unloaded and weighed and tested. It then needs to be weighed again and loaded into a truck to cart it to the enduser.
Despite rail being cheaper per kilometre, the 3 different movings of the grain from one vehicle to the next means it can't compete. This would be similar to most products moved around the country and is why trucks will never get replaced by train.
See ya's.
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A fast rail system from west to east, and from east to north would be a great thing.
Not because we need it, but it is another feature of making the Country great.
People always rave about the autobahns of European Countries, but do they really need them? Probably not, but they are just one more thing that will attract folk to the area; easier to drive, the thrill of driving very, very fast, and so on.
We get folk pouring into the Mornington Peninsula just because we have so many golf courses to select from in a small area - like Ireland.
The fast rail will definitely help tourism, and give everyone more options other than just the planes and driving enormous distances to travel the Country.
If handled correctly, it should be cheaper than air travel and attract more tourists to want to see more destinations all over.
Many of the folk we ran into in our O/S travels know only of Sydney and a bit north - a few went to Cairns, even less to Melb and so on. It was quite disappointing to hear.
With an ever-decreasing manufacturing sector in this Country, it is an obvious direction to promote and cater to tourists and more services.
A fast rail would create enormous job opportunity in a lot of different ways.
Not because we need it, but it is another feature of making the Country great.
People always rave about the autobahns of European Countries, but do they really need them? Probably not, but they are just one more thing that will attract folk to the area; easier to drive, the thrill of driving very, very fast, and so on.
We get folk pouring into the Mornington Peninsula just because we have so many golf courses to select from in a small area - like Ireland.
The fast rail will definitely help tourism, and give everyone more options other than just the planes and driving enormous distances to travel the Country.
If handled correctly, it should be cheaper than air travel and attract more tourists to want to see more destinations all over.
Many of the folk we ran into in our O/S travels know only of Sydney and a bit north - a few went to Cairns, even less to Melb and so on. It was quite disappointing to hear.
With an ever-decreasing manufacturing sector in this Country, it is an obvious direction to promote and cater to tourists and more services.
A fast rail would create enormous job opportunity in a lot of different ways.
Indeed!
Huge infrastructure projects are never initially feasible for private companies. Sea and air ports, communications networks etc. would never have been built by private enterprise, they buy them later when they are proven.
If I was emperor the trains would not replace air services, or at least in between Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne.
ATM high speed rail would on work with satellite cities, or facilities. Why build HSR to existing cities? Why not build new sat cities?
I think fast rail Perth to Melbourne via Kalgoorlie, Esperance, Port Augusta, Ceduna, Adelaide and a couple Vic country towns would be worthwhile.
Flying anywhere from Perth is expensive. Both Perth and Melbourne are overcrowded and overpopulated and would improve the prosperity of many country towns inbetween if people could commute to/from them.
Flying anywhere from Perth is expensive. Both Perth and Melbourne are overcrowded and overpopulated and would improve the prosperity of many country towns inbetween if people could commute to/from them.
Yes. It would be good.
But such useful infrastructure used to get built in this country. Now, it never gets built in the country. It's far more important to be able to crow about having a budget surplus than investing in the future. It's shortsighted and will cause huge social and economic issues down the line.
Still, it gives the middle class tax breaks which is the most important thing.
But such useful infrastructure used to get built in this country. Now, it never gets built in the country. It's far more important to be able to crow about having a budget surplus than investing in the future. It's shortsighted and will cause huge social and economic issues down the line.
Still, it gives the middle class tax breaks which is the most important thing.
We have the unique situation of having a large country area but coupled with low population. Building a fast rail between the major cities will probably never be viable for private enterprise. Even for Government, the huge cost of building it PLUS the now new extra maintenance for upkeep makes it a tough sell as well.
It would be a great thing. But at any cost? Airlines already provide this service so I don't see how there would be much difference really?
Why do you think it would be cheaper? If it was really cheaper, wouldn't private companies already be building the high speed tracks and rolling stock and be getting ready to make millions of dollars profit? A quick google tells me the high speed rail in France cost $US 15 million per kilometre many years ago. Private companies are running the airlines at a profit now. Why aren't they running high speed rail?
I could see how it might be possible to do economically in say Europe or China, where a thousand ks of track connects hundreds of millions of people, but Australia? At least a north/south, track from Brisbane to Melbourne would connect 10 million or so. But the east west track, Perth to Sydney would be even longer, and connect fewer people?
As nice as a country serviced by high speed rail would be, Australia is going to be one of the last places where it would work economically.
See ya's.
I don't know that it would..I said it should. Maybe it won't be, so a waste of time.
The set-up time and cost are probably the issue.
True. I was thinking more of the tourist market...and the local market would increase if it was a cheaper option than flying.
It may even be possible to incorporate industry/cargo shipping into it - it'd have to be economically viable as an option to trucking goods across country of course.
I was thinking that later this year when Labor wins the election and they return a surplus to the budget they could use that to fund it and get cracking on it.
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There is lots of stuff on the net about high speed rail in Australia.
Some interesting articles,.....
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/blogs/...ord-a-fivestar-fast-train-20110808-1iifr.html
The Bad. I could just imagine what Dazz would think of WA subsidising a fast rail for the east coast. With WA responsible for one third of Australia's exports from a tenth of Australia's population.
The Good? This sounds fabulous.
And another article,......
http://www.smh.com.au/national/albanese-concerned-about-highspeed-rail-20130304-2fhaw.html
Sounds like noise wouldn't be much of a problem for Sydney, as it would be mostly underground?
One thing that would need to be taken into account is that there will need to be a massive government expenditure in the next few years solving Sydney's airport problem anyway. A high speed rail would fix that straight away with so much interstate flights changed to rail, and the option of Canberra and Williamtown as well. Canberra would serve southern NSW and Williamtown northern NSW.
As per usual, the greens will be a total contradiction. Welcoming the obvious benefits without regard of cost, but conflicting with their environmental concerns about the construction of the tracks.
See ya's.
Some interesting articles,.....
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/blogs/...ord-a-fivestar-fast-train-20110808-1iifr.html
The Bad. I could just imagine what Dazz would think of WA subsidising a fast rail for the east coast. With WA responsible for one third of Australia's exports from a tenth of Australia's population.
The Good? This sounds fabulous.
And another article,......
http://www.smh.com.au/national/albanese-concerned-about-highspeed-rail-20130304-2fhaw.html
Sounds like noise wouldn't be much of a problem for Sydney, as it would be mostly underground?
One thing that would need to be taken into account is that there will need to be a massive government expenditure in the next few years solving Sydney's airport problem anyway. A high speed rail would fix that straight away with so much interstate flights changed to rail, and the option of Canberra and Williamtown as well. Canberra would serve southern NSW and Williamtown northern NSW.
As per usual, the greens will be a total contradiction. Welcoming the obvious benefits without regard of cost, but conflicting with their environmental concerns about the construction of the tracks.
See ya's.
Unfortunately, Australia is a complete backwater when it comes to things like this. At present, we are the only continent in the world (except Antarctica) without high speed rail and the penguins will probably beat us to it. Even small regional centres in Europe have high speed rail so we certaintly have no excuse.
We seem to love funnelling millions into roads and suburban sprawl but rail and public transport is seen as a "waste". Rail contributes far, far more to the economy than roads and are actually cheaper to maintain. We don't even have a proper electrified interstate rail system like they do in the US (Amtrak)! The Countrylink trains look like something out of an old cowboy film. I'm surprised that more people aren't embarrassed by this. When I can fly to Singapore or Malaysia for the same price as flying to Melbourne, you know something is wrong.
I guess I shouldn't be so surprised though. Everything in this country is so monopolised that it seems more and more scam-like every day. The really scary thing is that most people don't seem to mind.
We seem to love funnelling millions into roads and suburban sprawl but rail and public transport is seen as a "waste". Rail contributes far, far more to the economy than roads and are actually cheaper to maintain. We don't even have a proper electrified interstate rail system like they do in the US (Amtrak)! The Countrylink trains look like something out of an old cowboy film. I'm surprised that more people aren't embarrassed by this. When I can fly to Singapore or Malaysia for the same price as flying to Melbourne, you know something is wrong.
I guess I shouldn't be so surprised though. Everything in this country is so monopolised that it seems more and more scam-like every day. The really scary thing is that most people don't seem to mind.
Cost effectiveness of any modern infrastructure on such a small spread out population like Australia.
The reason why some groups are calling for controlled immigration with higher population targets - which can fill out regional areas to create long term viable population centers. This would connect Australia much more if you have mid size towns connecting the State capitals, much like you see in Europe, the US - heck everywhere but Australia...
The reason why some groups are calling for controlled immigration with higher population targets - which can fill out regional areas to create long term viable population centers. This would connect Australia much more if you have mid size towns connecting the State capitals, much like you see in Europe, the US - heck everywhere but Australia...
Why does that rationale not apply to roads, for example? Do we suddenly have a more dispersed population when we are considering road funding? Or are we turning into a bunch of car dependent, surburban sprawl obsessed people who think roads are "required" but adequete public transportation is an optional extra?
Pretty much every reason that people give against it is a just an excuse. We have such a high GDP and great economy but are lagging behind Zimbabwe when it comes to infrastructure development. We just seem to be content with mediocrity.
Pretty much every reason that people give against it is a just an excuse. We have such a high GDP and great economy but are lagging behind Zimbabwe when it comes to infrastructure development. We just seem to be content with mediocrity.
You live in Canberra? Does Canberra need more public transport options? I don't know, but any time I've been there it's easy to travel about. Big wide roads and overpasses, with pushbike lanes everywhere. Surely it doesn't need rail?
Public transport becomes more and more an issue the bigger a city becomes. It is a waste of time in most rural cities, as if you can drive everywhere in 5 or 10 minutes, and find a parking space in 30 seconds, why take a bus or train?
Canberra has magnificent roads. You can drive everywhere as well with few traffic lights. This is also to do with the size of the place.
It's once you get to the million plus size that the problems start. Traffic congestion problems multiply exponentially. That's why a city of 10 times the population has 100 times the traffic lights and traffic congestion. Gunnedah of 10,000 people has one traffic light. Toowoomba of 80,000 people has about 80 traffic lights. It seems like Sydney has a million traffic lights, plus all the tunnels and freeways and what ever else and traffic is still a disaster.
Anyway, I was in Sydney a month ago. What is wrong with public transport there really? I got on a train at Hornsby, got on a few others, cost bugger all, nice and comfy. Certainly better than driving.
See ya's.
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Roads are cheaper, yet they are still rubbish in Australia IMHO. A small population geographically isolated makes everything in Australia cost more, not just infrastructure. It's the same reason manufacturers and distributors for many products gouge Aussies, as they need to make up the margins with the small market place.
From what I can tell, every level of government has shown to be quite keen with getting people away from cars and into public transport.
Canberra certainly needs better public transport. The bus system at the moment is poorly planned and very slow. I'm not sure who designs these things (engineer of some sort maybe?) but with my BA, I could do a better job.
Buses are expensive to run and inefficient. Maybe a full train system is not required, but a light rail system is the minimum we should be aiming for. Which developed city relies only on buses? It was also part of the initial "design" for Canberra but of course, we left that bit out when it came to following the plans.
Personally, I would much prefer to catch efficient public transport than drive to work. You get some fresh air and exercise and feel much more refreshed in the morning. I walk to work atm and feel a lot better in the mornings than when I had a long commute in Melbourne.
Roads are really an empty investment. They need constant repair and maintenance and give no ROI. On the other hand, the benefits of good quality public transport are numerous. It also has flow on effects to many other areas.
In terms of interstate high speed rail, there definitely needs to be rail linking up a few capital cities at a minimum (I'd say Canberra - Sydney (airport and CBD) - Melbourne and maybe Adelaide as a start). Others can be added in increments. This would also force the airlines to prices their fares a lot more reasonably if they want to compete.
When we visited the US in 2011, we caught the train from New York to Washington DC and it was great. Most people there prefer to catch the Amtrak train than to fly or drive as it takes you from the centre of one city to the centre of the other. No messing around with traffic, parking, cabs to get to the city or waiting for your luggage and it's cheaper too. I would guess the tourism industry in cities with good rail increases dramatically as well.
