High Yielding Shares Again

Most of the Blue chip internally managed LIC outperform the market by a small margin

Correct me if I am wrong, some of the blue chip LIC mentioned in this thread are ARGO, AFI and Milton corporation. Here is a snapshot of their top holdings. I have also included at the bottom the holding of Vanguard ASX 300 which should be very similar to the index weightings.

ARGO Investments holdings

Top 20 Investments:
Percentage of total assets as at 31.05.14 %

Westpac Banking Corporation 7.1
Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Ltd. 6.3
BHP Billiton Ltd. 6.0
Wesfarmers Ltd. 4.8
Commonwealth Bank of Australia 4.5
Telstra Corporation Ltd. 4.5
National Australia Bank Ltd. 3.8
Milton Corporation Ltd. 3.4
Woolworths Ltd. 3.1
Rio Tinto Ltd. 3.0
Macquarie Group Ltd. 2.8
Australian United Investment Company Ltd. 2.8
Origin Energy Ltd. 2.1
CSL Ltd. 1.6
Woodside Petroleum Ltd. 1.4
Santos Ltd. 1.4
Ramsay Health Care Ltd. 1.3
AMP Ltd. 1.3
Computershare Ltd. 1.3
Twenty-First Century Fox, Inc. 1.3



Top 20 equity investments 63.8
Cash and term deposits 4.3

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AFIC Investments holdings

Top 25 Investments ? Ordinary Securities

Valued at closing prices at 30 May 2014
Total Value

$ million

1 CBA Commonwealth Bank of Australia 692.1
2 WBC Westpac Banking Corporation 627.7
3 BHP * BHP Billiton 553.3
4 WES Wesfarmers 327.5
5 NAB *National Australia Bank 321.1
6 TLS *Telstra Corporation 293.7
7 ANZ Australia and New Zealand Banking Group 284.3
8 WOW * Woolworths 236.8
9 RIO *Rio Tinto 219.8
10 OSH * Oil Search 162.1
11 TCL *Transurban Group 150.0
12 WPL Woodside Petroleum 138.4
13 AMC Amcor 136.5
14 STO * Santos 118.5
15 ORG *Origin Energy 108.3
16 AMP AMP 108.0
17 BXB Brambles 107.5
18 CPU Computershare 103.8
19 QBE *QBE Insurance Group 88.7
20 APA APA Group 81.4
21 AGK AGL Energy 78.3
22 CSL * CSL 70.6
23 RHC Ramsay Health Care 64.4
24 MLT Milton Corporation 62.9
25 IPL *Incitec Pivot 60.9

Total 5,196.7

As % of Total Portfolio Value(excludes Cash) 80.2%

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Milton Corporation Investments holdings

20 LARGEST INVESTMENTS
The 20 largest investments at 31 May 2014 are set out below.
Company Market Value $m Share of Total Assets %
Westpac Banking Corporation 359.7 13.0
Commonwealth Bank of Australia 247.5 8.9
National Australia Bank 147.5 5.3
W H Soul Pattinson 135.3 4.9
BHP Billiton Limited 125.2 4.5
Wesfarmers Limited 124.1 4.5
Woolworths Limited 102.3 3.7
ALS Limited 100.6 3.6
ANZ Banking Group 99.5 3.6
Bank of Queensland 87.7 3.2
Telstra Corporation 72.7 2.6
Bendigo and Adelaide Bank 67.0 2.4
Perpetual Limited 64.0 2.3
Brickworks Limited 44.0 1.6
CSL Limited 41.8 1.5
Suncorp Group 41.0 1.5
AGL Energy 36.8 1.3
Woodside Petroleum 34.7 1.3
Rio Tinto 33.7 1.2
AP Eagers Limited 31.7 1.1
Total Top 20 1,996.8 72.0


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Vanguard ASX300 ETF Investments holdings

Holdings
ETF Underlying fund Top 10 holdings
1 CBA
2 BHP Billiton
3 Westpac
4 ANZ
5 NAB
6 Telstra
7 Wesfarmers
8 Woolworths
9 CSL
10 Woodside Petroleum

The Top 10 holdings represent 54.7% of the total underlying fund

So you can see all 3 LICs have different top holdings from the index weightings. Some LICs picks will endup outperforming while others will underperform. It's just not possible for all of them to outperform when they have different top holdings. We just don't know which ones will outperform, so which one do you pick? If you pick mix of few LICs you can best hope the good ones will cancel out the bad ones to give you an overall return at best similar to the index. Hence, why bother with the hassle of investing in multiple LICs? The incentive is just not strong enough. And if you pick just one, you don't know which one is going to be the outperformer.

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
This is why the market scares me especially when trading platforms go down and you can't sell. I don't like either of those options. Oracle, it sounds like you've changed your tune a bit in regards to investing directly? I seem to remember you used to be very active managing a portfolio.

Yes, that is correct (See below).


I have invested in the sharemarket buying individual companies for several years have have done OK. But I know how difficult it can be to get everything right to consistently beat the index over the long term.

It used to be quite stressful continuously monitoring and checking company reports to make sure they are performing well and your picks will outperform the index.

Nowadays, I just invest in low cost index ETF with conservative gearing to achieve slightly extra overall returns than the market.

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
What if for whatever reason the LIC you invested in starts to lag the index? It could be due to any reason, Change in the fund manager or poor stock selection etc. Are you going to sell your entire portfolio (triggering a CGT) and buy the latest outperforming LIC? What is the backup plan?

.

Fair call but I dont ever remember the large LICs underperforming by much at any point in time. Cant see them changing their blue chip buy and hold mandate that served them well since the likes of AFI go back to 1930s. They have to keep shareholder happy or face eviction.

Dont get me wrong I am not all for LICs or any LICs .
I just like the large low fee blue chip holders like ARG/AFI/MLT/BKI/AUI/DUI when available at nice discount to NTA which enhances your yield and gives free leverage. They all have their subtle differences too for example ARG is underweight in banks MLT is overweight in banks etc.

When LICs are trading above NTA like the big 3 are now at this point in time I would actually prefer an ETF.
 
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So you can see all 3 LICs have different top holdings from the index weightings. Some LICs picks will endup outperforming while others will underperform. It's just not possible for all of them to outperform when they have different top holdings. We just don't know which ones will outperform, so which one do you pick? If you pick mix of few LICs you can best hope the good ones will cancel out the bad ones to give you an overall return at best similar to the index. Hence, why bother with the hassle of investing in multiple LICs? The incentive is just not strong enough. And if you pick just one, you don't know which one is going to be the outperformer.

Cheers,
Oracle.

Why cant they outperform with different holdings?
 
This is why the market scares me especially when trading platforms go down and you can't sell. I don't like either of those options. Oracle, it sounds like you've changed your tune a bit in regards to investing directly? I seem to remember you used to be very active managing a portfolio.

The big LIC's didn't sell anything during the GFC...there is a lesson in that.

When LICs are trading above NTA like the big 3 are now at this point in time I would actually prefer an ETF.

Agreed. Whitefield is about the only one of interest at the moment at 7% below NTA approx.
 
Why cant they outperform with different holdings?

If your portfolio (lets call it A) is overweight stock X and mine (lets call it B) is overweight stock Y that means one is underweight the other. If stock X rallies portfolio A benefits while portfolio B loses out. If stock Y rallies portfolio B benefits while portfolio A loses out. They both can't generate similar returns because their holdings and weightings are different. If both stocks rallies they benefit but still miss out on the gains of the underweight stock.

My point is short term yes they might outperform but long term one of the funds has to underperform the index because all of the LICs can't just have winners in their portfolio especially when they have different top holdings.

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
If your portfolio (lets call it A) is overweight stock X and mine (lets call it B) is overweight stock Y that means one is underweight the other. If stock X rallies portfolio A benefits while portfolio B loses out. If stock Y rallies portfolio B benefits while portfolio A loses out. They both can't generate similar returns because their holdings and weightings are different. If both stocks rallies they benefit but still miss out on the gains of the underweight stock.

My point is short term yes they might outperform but long term one of the funds has to underperform the index because all of the LICs can't just have winners in their portfolio especially when they have different top holdings.

Cheers,
Oracle.

So if MR ETF Index continues to hold former darling leveraged mining service company and Mr LIC A, MR LIC B and MR LIC C doesnt then who beats the index?

As I stated before they are just the index light on cyclicals, LPTs and speccies, thats how they continue to outperform.
 
Thats because they dont buy into fads and crap.

Very true. Have attended small presentations in Sydney by both Ross Barker (AFI) and Jason Beddow (ARG) while on their travelling road shows recently...they inspire confidence and the track records back that up. As an aside, AMH has a lot of the AFI guys private wealth invested, very different to the index but good performance since it was recapitalised...bugger all liquidity but something to put into the portfolio for long term outperformance potential.
 
If you take this further I think you have a rock solid foundation without ever touching 200K buffer, this would only comes in a very extreme case.

there is no reason why during GFC or the like your dividend has to drop 25% or 30%

My dividend didnt drop at all during GFC, maybe one or two stocks but then there are other 8-10 stocks dividend is actually increasing or maintain so over all no effect or rising

the reasons companies dropped dividend is due to cash flow issues and heavy gear balance sheet....this ties their hand and or lenders force them to preserve cash...this tend to applied to cynical business

pick companies that has reliable earning stream combine with little debt or no debt it should carry on business as usual....during lean times they can cut cost and since they have little debt so no financial obligations that saving goes straight to your pocket via dividend.

good management may temporary preserve cash to see what in the fog ahead during crisis but it wouldn't be a many years thing, it maybe be 6-12 months.

Having a well picked dozen or two reliable earner with low debt and they all cut dividend by 25% I say is an extremely rare event and I would bet 99.9% of the time it wont happen...it be a mix of some cut, some increase some maintain, or maybe no cut at all to most.

Spot on roe.

With the index funds and ETFs that people here are favouring though, the dividend cuts can be huge.

STW (tracking the ASX 200) dropped dividends by 62% after the GFC... :eek: !

The Vanguard High Yield Australian Shares Index Fund dropped dividends by 60% after the GFC... :eek: !

What if your equities exposure was 100% allocated to these funds at this time (like some on this thread here are)?

How can you rely on this to fund any living costs?

The answer is... you can't, unless you have so much capital generating so much dividends that this won't affect you or you have an endless supply of buffers.

It's quite possible the dividends fell by even more than the capital values in these cases.

I don't think people really appreciate this.

LICs are better in some ways (particularly when bought at a discount to NTA and given their dividend stability), but many have failed to increase dividends at or significantly above the rate of inflation over the last 15 years, so have not really met their stated objectives.

If the income doesn't rise above inflation... what's the point?

If you have a dividend bias, you are better off investing directly (for lack of a more efficient passive alternative in Australia - yet anyway).

There are no shortcuts unfortunately (there is some downside to every approach), but if you read all the academic literature/studies/evidence you will be convinced that doing so reliably is simply impossible to do...
 
Spot on roe.

With the index funds and ETFs that people here are favouring though, the dividend cuts can be huge.

STW (tracking the ASX 200) dropped dividends by 62% after the GFC... :eek: !

yeah I dont invest in LIC or Index as I cant control what I get ..you get the good and the bad throw into the mix .. If I am going to do I may as well spend the time and effort going a bit further and pick my own business to my liking...
 
yeah I dont invest in LIC or Index as I cant control what I get ..you get the good and the bad throw into the mix .. If I am going to do I may as well spend the time and effort going a bit further and pick my own business to my liking...

+1, let's see if this idea gets any traction.
 
So if MR ETF Index continues to hold former darling leveraged mining service company and Mr LIC A, MR LIC B and MR LIC C doesnt then who beats the index?

I can say the same thing. What is the guarantee that the next winner in the index that will propel it higher is owned by Mr LIC A, Mr LIC B and Mr LIC C? You just keep referring to LIC as they never hold any dogs. They always own only all the winners. That just can't be possible.

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
I can say the same thing. What is the guarantee that the next winner in the index that will propel it higher is owned by Mr LIC A, Mr LIC B and Mr LIC C? You just keep referring to LIC as they never hold any dogs. They always own only all the winners. That just can't be possible.

Cheers,
Oracle.

By limiting cyclicals, LPTs and speculative stocks over the long term it is possible.
 
+1, let's see if this idea gets any traction.

Following this thread with interest.
OK, so if you wish to go this route and pick your own aus stocks for income, capital growth and growth of income at a rate higher than inflation - do you set yourself some investment rules to narrow down particular stocks from all those listed.
If so - what are your rules and what screening/analysis tools do you use? anybody?
 
many have failed to increase dividends at or significantly above the rate of inflation over the last 15 years, so have not really met their stated objectives.

If the income doesn't rise above inflation... what's the point?

Nor has the market. The large LICs basically try to hold a progressive dividend policy they need to be cautious, the current payout ratio of most the blue chips ex miners is somewhat stretched.

But what they hold back they reinvest anyway.

By the way I hope I dont sound like LICs are the only way because ETFs have their strengths too.
 
Following this thread with interest.
OK, so if you wish to go this route and pick your own aus stocks for income, capital growth and growth of income at a rate higher than inflation - do you set yourself some investment rules to narrow down particular stocks from all those listed.
If so - what are your rules and what screening/analysis tools do you use? anybody?

I dont think it is possible for someone just to jump in and pick good stock
it comes with a bit of experience and time in the market...

you got to know which are the good business first...you can do that to a certain extend by filter out return on equity and capital ...something greater than 15% show reasonable business model and required further digging and that will tell you if it is a temporary thing or it inherit in the business model that can generates that sort of return over many cycles...

some people takes the easy road and said its all too hard or I don't have time
or it is too volatile or too risky or it simpler if I just buy the index etc...

but the end result is worth it you end up with a couple of dozen business
that over long period of time will out perform every other asset class, plus juicy dividend why wouldn't people spend the time and perfect the art?

I am sure most successful properties investors don't just buy any properties.
They spent time research the area, the people in that are, how far away from public infrastructure and CBD etc..

The same logic can be applied to the stock market, the more you know about the business the easier for you to work out how it makes its money and its value as a business.

I dont claim to be an expert nor my way is any better than anyone else, I am sure there are many other doing better than myself but this is what I do

I do regular reading (20min here, an hour there whenever I can fit in) on
anything related to business and stock market sometimes it got nothing to do with a particular stock but over time I gain very good knowledge of the market and various industries from that knowledge

I know which business model are better model,
which industries are low return high capital expenditure and never to put a dim in them which industries give you certain protection from competition and which one give you the all weather cash cow come rain, hail or shine.

I then take that and applied to companies I want to invest in and use keys metrics to determine if it pass another test ...these are for existing companies..
(ROE, ROC, Free cash Flow, Profit margin, Balance sheet, cost of capital etc..)

I already know which industries will attract my dollars, so if you are a mining specs or a miners or involve in cynical business or commodities business where you have no pricing power or operate in highly competitive market or a resurrect business due to a private equity involvement and they bailing out etc.. you ain't getting my cash.

the rest I will take a look and they get my capital accordingly..
as you see when I filter that through my exclusion list there aren't many
business on the ASX left to invest in so the list becomes very small.
small but in charge (SMIC) is my theme, I prefer to hold 3 rock solid stocks
than have 10 spread all over the place which half of them don't make the cut.

those that make the cut, it get on my buy list, if I think it is too expensive
it stays there and I still keep a tab on them until such time the market turns
or they stuffed up or sentiment gone down the toilet .... I will make a judgement call on the information I have up until that point whether it is still a buy ...if it is, I buy, I dont care who get in or out or what rumour is flying around or market crash and commentators call doom day.

and stock market is full of entrepreneur and new business wanting to list on the ASX each year...there are dozen of new business listing every year and most I look but I end up not invest in many just reading to accumulate more knowledge and compared business models... I looked at 6 IPO this year I only end up investing large amount in one ...VED ... I like the model, I like the cash flow and its revenue stream.

that the crud of it ... when you have more experience the world is at your feet with the stock market, you can get involve in more exotic stuff like trading, options, warrants to enhance your gain even more.

it is very daunting and complex if you look at everything that the stock market offers but take baby steps at a time, conquer one area before moving to the next
 
In Australia 20 stocks make up 50% of the market capitalisation of the index and 50 stocks make up 80% of the market capitalisation of the index

I like the inclusion of other markets, dollar cost averaging over time and across various markets with some of the ETF's would seem to be able to outperform the ASX accumulation index over the long term.

Re: Hoffy's post on Rob Arnott's value based index, this seems interesting also

Passive Investing whether it be via index's, LIC's or ETF's isn't as exciting as individual stock buying, but then again, neither is buy and hold property investing ;)
 
roe;1180154 the rest I will take a look and they get my capital accordingly.. as you see when I filter that through my exclusion list there aren't many business on the ASX left to invest in so the list becomes very small.[/QUOTE said:
Thanks roe. Yeah that's the feeling I get.
Do you filter by size as well, or will you look at any size business as long as the business model is good.

TPI - what about you? Any filters, screens, rules etc you would recommend to whittle down asx listed stocks to good investment opportunities?
 
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yeah I dont invest in LIC or Index as I cant control what I get ..you get the good and the bad throw into the mix .. If I am going to do I may as well spend the time and effort going a bit further and pick my own business to my liking...

Its A lot easier to protect that way! great thread BTW
 
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