how people can afford a $500K house ?

Been to an auction in Doncaster (Melb east), 3-bedroom really old townhouse with not much land, $540K. A quick calculation in my mind P&I loan @8% repayment roughly $50K after tax. Assume $80K before tax, so if a couple is lucky to keep a job for that long, one partner will be looking at working for at least 25 years just to pay off the loan. And then still have to pay living expenses, grocery, schooling etc etc. I have been in the situation where for a few years my wife salary just go toward paying for the kids' childcare and it wasn't a good situation to be in. How can people afford this ?!!!!
If it's an investment property the rental will not be more than $350 pw.
 
A good number of people will be using the proceeds of a previous sale to fund a fair bit of the purchase, plus some mortgage.

In other words; a trade-up.

Also, there are people out there that are earning $150k and more; on their own, and then have a partner to help out with a second wage.

You wouldn't even need to be earning that much; a couple both earning around $60k or so each could do it - one wage pays the mortgage, the other wage is for living. Easily done.

And finally, it could be the same couple who are using it as an IP, using some equity from their PPoR as a deposit, and will be using the rent and the tax benefits to help cover the loan.

Personally; if it was an (older) IP that costs $540k and only rents for $350 p/w, I wouldn't buy it.

You could do far better with a newer, cheaper house with some land for around $300-350k, still rents for around $300 p/w or so, and you get all the lovely depreciation and a possible subdivision down the track. ;)
 
yes LA, I am thinking more young couple buying their first home, rather than investor or those trading up. Even if they can afford it, not much fun the husband or wife (or partner) has to work 25-30 yrs just to pay for a roof over the head.
 
yes LA, I am thinking more young couple buying their first home, rather than investor or those trading up. Even if they can afford it, not much fun the husband or wife (or partner) has to work 25-30 yrs just to pay for a roof over the head.

A young couple would more likely be buying something cheaper, for arguments sake lets say 350k. Then in 5 years they could trade up to 500k, then another 5 years 700k and so on. Most first home buyers can't afford the median price.
 
I would assume that the couple would have a 20% deposit so mortgage is more like $40k a year, or $750 a week.

a household income of around $100k say should easily be able to cover the mortgage. it would be tough the first few years but remember the $100k household income is likely to go up each year with payrises and promotions etc. In 5 years the mortgage is paid easily.

the hard bit is how to slot children into the equation now. It's a struggle for most average families to pay a mortgage on one salary.
 
Been to an auction in Doncaster (Melb east), 3-bedroom really old townhouse with not much land, $540K. A quick calculation in my mind P&I loan @8% repayment roughly $50K after tax. Assume $80K before tax, so if a couple is lucky to keep a job for that long, one partner will be looking at working for at least 25 years just to pay off the loan. And then still have to pay living expenses, grocery, schooling etc etc. I have been in the situation where for a few years my wife salary just go toward paying for the kids' childcare and it wasn't a good situation to be in. How can people afford this ?!!!!
If it's an investment property the rental will not be more than $350 pw.

1) Owner occupiers don't look at what the property will rent for
2) Many couples both work, so two incomes (hence why they have problems when they have kids)
3) Many people (surprisingly many) make much more than 80k
4) Trading up
5) Young people shouldn't be buying 540k properties. It should be older people (therefore more likely higher incomes) with equity from an existing property
Alex
 
They shouldn't, but they do it all the time.:eek:

I have that conversation with my colleagues all the time. They make good money, and in many cases both partners work. But they're looking for properties in very nice areas (Coogee seems to be a favourite).
Alex
 
1) Owner occupiers don't look at what the property will rent for
They should. They are foolish.

2) Many couples both work, so two incomes (hence why they have problems when they have kids)
Yes. It's a trap many fall into.

3) Many people (surprisingly many) make much more than 80k
Looking at ALL people then most don't. If the mean is $55K and you assume it is a positively skewed distribution then most are under this. Looking at just the FHB subsegment I couldn't tell you - they might earn more being in prime working age.

4) Trading up
Anybody with a mind for the macro picture knows this trading up concept is nonsense - at some point, somebody, somewhere has to PAY for the house. Pyramid schemes have a bottom.

5) Young people shouldn't be buying 540k properties. It should be older people (therefore more likely higher incomes) with equity from an existing property
Exactly. So why is an old townhouse in Doncaster selling for 540k?
 
They should. They are foolish.

Yes, they should. But they don't. Why? They don't want to. If they looked at the rent they could get, they would realise that the PPOR doesn't make financial sense. But no one wants to believe that. So they conveniently ignore it. If enough people do that, they BECOME the mainstream.

Despite the massive increase in personal finance books, etc out there, people aren't getting any smarter financially. On the other hand, that means more opportunities for those of us who ARE financially savvy. You know, I didn't look at rent when I bought my PPOR. I was surprised at that, and now understand a bit more about the OO mentality. On the other hand, when you have enough people who don't take rents into account, then property prices really can decouple from rents. Which launches me into my 'property yields tend to fall because prices rise faster than rents, until they reset on redevelopment' theory.

Looking at ALL people then most don't. If the mean is $55K and you assume it is a positively skewed distribution then most are under this. Looking at just the FHB subsegment I couldn't tell you - they might earn more being in prime working age.

Not all properties are 540k, either. I would say most properties in Melbourne (looking at ALL properties) aren't 540k? People on lower incomes should be buying cheaper properties.

Anybody with a mind for the macro picture knows this trading up concept is nonsense - at some point, somebody, somewhere has to PAY for the house. Pyramid schemes have a bottom.

Yes, and we may well be approaching it. However, most people aren't as smart or as educated as you are, YM, and they don't have a mind for the 'macro picture'. Trading up works if you keep having new buyers (who don't have a property) coming in at the bottom. If the entry level properties aren't purchased, no one can trade up.

My view is that such a downturn will not last forever (just as a boom cannot last forever). We might see stagnating (why not big falls like the sharemarket? Because an emotional item like property is VERY sticky on the downside, and we didn't have the same level of crap loans as the US) prices for a while, rents will rise, and just as people think you'll never make money from property, it'll tip over and we have another boom.

On the other hand, my peer group(that does include you, YM), who may not have a property but make a decent salary, can come in and jump the queue a bit. We can afford median and above properties without having to trade up. I managed to buy a above median PPOR without selling a previous property (and I didn't have an old PPOR to sell anyway).

Exactly. So why is an old townhouse in Doncaster selling for 540k?

Presumably the people who will buy that townhouse are NOT young people on even 80k. They might be, though, TWO young people on 80k EACH. That's achieveable, though when they have kids it's going to be an issue. You can probably afford it, no?
Alex
 
You know, YM, we don't actually disagree on the major points. The big difference is: you can't believe most people are actually that financially crazy and assume they're going to wake up eventually. I think it's going to go on forever (with periodic malfunctions in the matrix, resulting in loss of a few crops), because people WANT to believe.

At an academic level the market must correct. At a practical level, the market will correct but not as much as the academic analysis suggests, and will boom again in defiance of theory. The difference? Human psychology.
Alex
 
Agree with all of that Alex. Our battles are becoming dull ... I must find a new forum!

"You can probably afford it, no?" ..... you mean kids or a rubbish townhouse in Doncaster? I could afford both and still eat well but I'm not the typical.

I do need to take on some debt though ASAP as I'm beginning to pay too much tax. My instinct is to leverage up into shares - they just came off the boil and the entry timing is not too bad. But maybe something small in property is worthwhile as well ..... I still think the macro picture is scary for property but there might be something small and specific that has other things going for it.

I could see a financial advisor for the tax / investment advice but can you imagine me with a financial advisor - the poor guy would be thinking "what did I do to deserve this?". Maybe I should start a thread called "Help Yieldmatters take on debt" ....
 
My instinct is to leverage up into shares - they just came off the boil and the entry timing is not too bad. But maybe something small in property is worthwhile as well

I could see a financial advisor for the tax / investment advice but can you imagine me with a financial advisor - the poor guy would be thinking "what did I do to deserve this?". Maybe I should start a thread called "Help Yieldmatters take on debt" ....

My instinct...
But maybe...
I could see...
maybe I should...

Not bad for one post.

You are a pain in the backside YM.

For someone who is so active and so much to say on this forum, and with such a high income and therefore with no excuses or fears of financial distress, you are the biggest "gunna" I've ever heard, and will probably be still waffling here in 12 more months with no runs on the board. :rolleyes:
 
Agree with all of that Alex. Our battles are becoming dull ... I must find a new forum!

Do you find it strange that we agree on the main points, but I buy property and you don't?

"You can probably afford it, no?" ..... you mean kids or a rubbish townhouse in Doncaster? I could afford both and still eat well but I'm not the typical.

Neither is a $540k property, even in Melbourne. Atypical people buy atypical properties.

I do need to take on some debt though ASAP as I'm beginning to pay too much tax. My instinct is to leverage up into shares - they just came off the boil and the entry timing is not too bad. But maybe something small in property is worthwhile as well ..... I still think the macro picture is scary for property but there might be something small and specific that has other things going for it.

Perhaps after the recent Brisbane rises, your old property would now be considered small? Or was at the price you sold it.

Surely you don't think the US has worked out all the excesses from the last boom? Why not take your own advice and wait until it ALL hits the fan? I've been reading that econimists etc expect a total of 500b in writedowns on subprime (and that's assuming the market doesn't get worse). So far I think about 200b has been written off. Where's the rest? (My theory, Asia. I think the Chinese and Japanese are hiding stuff on their balance sheets.)

Unlike you, though, I don't insist on waiting until the bottom to buy (nor do I sell when I think a market has 'peaked'). I'm also going to leverage into shares, but because I have property, I can secure it against the property instead of using a margin loan. No margin calls.

I could see a financial advisor for the tax / investment advice but can you imagine me with a financial advisor - the poor guy would be thinking "what did I do to deserve this?". Maybe I should start a thread called "Help Yieldmatters take on debt" ....

I'd rather help a newbie. At least they just have weird opinions. I'd have to work through too many logical preconceptions in your case and explain to you how people aren't always logical.
Alex
 
I could see a financial advisor for the tax / investment advice but can you imagine me with a financial advisor - the poor guy would be thinking "what did I do to deserve this?". Maybe I should start a thread called "Help Yieldmatters take on debt" ....



OR Yieldmatters see's a Financial Planner?

Week One

<start here>
 
My instinct...
But maybe...
I could see...
maybe I should...

Not bad for one post.

You are a pain in the backside YM.

For someone who is so active and so much to say on this forum, and with such a high income and therefore with no excuses or fears of financial distress, you are the biggest "gunna" I've ever heard, and will probably be still waffling here in 12 more months with no runs on the board. :rolleyes:

thanks for the push along .... :D
 
Doedsn't help when you're loaded down with a whole economics library in your backpack, mate.
Alex

Ahh... economics.

I remember in Year 8 or 9 Economics, my teacher said one day; "Bricks and Mortar boys; bricks and mortar! - they aint makin' anymore land".

Never forgot it.

Funny thing happened to me when I first started with my accountant years later; I had started to make some decent money finally, and he said; "put it into property".
 
Been to an auction in Doncaster (Melb east), 3-bedroom really old townhouse with not much land, $540K. A quick calculation in my mind P&I loan @8% repayment roughly $50K after tax. Assume $80K before tax, so if a couple is lucky to keep a job for that long, one partner will be looking at working for at least 25 years just to pay off the loan. And then still have to pay living expenses, grocery, schooling etc etc. I have been in the situation where for a few years my wife salary just go toward paying for the kids' childcare and it wasn't a good situation to be in. How can people afford this ?!!!!
If it's an investment property the rental will not be more than $350 pw.

many people buying their 2nd or 3rd ppor property may be able to nearly pay cash or borrow very little if they've been in the market for a while.
pieman
 
If the Govt wants us to be self funded retirees, they should teach it in schools. We get taught the basics, and off to highschool, trade and uni we go to learn about a job/career. What about the basics on how to become financially free.
It is quite obvious that parents don't teach it, as many don't know how. My parents, did not buy me presents, it was always money that had to be put in the piggy bank. There was only 2 of us in Year 7, that still had a school bank book. If I was taught the basics, of what I know now, I would have too retired at 30 - like some of the young ones now are.
I bought both my first two PPOR with 50% cash down, that I had saved in term deposits. There was a few books around, but they did not make much sense, and no one else in my circle read them, no seminars, no forums.
 
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