How should property be marketed and sold?

Surely, if we have done our research (and we can all see the emphasis on due diligence on this forum) then we don't need an agent or vendor to tell us what the place is worth. We already know.

True, but how much due diligance do you want to do? A blurb of advertising and a few low res images doesn't tell you much. Is that place worth $300k or $400k? You might have an idea from the address, if it is provided, but with many ads you'd have to phone or visit to get even a rough idea. Having some price to go by (even if its off by quite a bit) lets you know whether it is something you may be interested in (assuming you are after a certain criteria/standard of place) or not. Having to follow up many many ads to find which should (very roughly) be in the criteria you are looking for isn't efficient use of time.

On my IP I offerred the asking price, cause I thought it was a good deal. I normally bargain for most things. I'm sure many are affected by the advertised price, but not everyone.
 
Hard to do due diligence in some suburbs with low sales and such differing housing styles and finishes.

And looking on the net is not the answer. Professional photos can be quite misleading so a personal visit to many places would be needed to gauge their value in relation to what you are looking at.
 
As a continuation from another thread about Agents picking up their act (which I don’t disagree with), and given that there were several people who were dissatisfied with their experiences with Agents, I thought that it might make an interesting post to attempt to find out how Buyers (lets forget Sellers for the point of this exercise) would like to see property sold.

Here are a couple of options.
1.The list price is the price that the Seller wants and there is no negotiation.
2.The list price is the lowest price and the Seller will only accept offers over this price.
3.The list price is the highest price that the Seller would expect and all offers should be considered.
4.There is a price range given, ‘Offers between $x and $y’.
5.There is no price at all and Buyers must come up with their own value.

The point that must be considered in this exercise is that there must be only one option and legislation is put in place to dictate that this will be the one and only way that property can be bought and sold.

I believe that we are fast coming to the point that option 5. will be the norm. I will explain why after some other opinions are posted.

Firstly, what is yours as you said?

Secondly, my view:

options 2 and 4 - are for agents to collect commission not for selling for a good price. Most likely, these properties will be sold at the lowest possible price. But the agent claims the credit --- SOLD SOLD SOLD.
Option 5 - you assume all buyers have a profound knowledge on properties. Unfortunately, it is not true. It will scare a lot of buyers.

Option 1 - if you can stick with your price.

Option 3 - my preference. The buyer buys based on their affordability. It may scares some people from STREET impression (they thought it was not worthy). Probably correct way to say would be a bit higher than you want.
 
Wow!!! just popped in for a quick look to see if anyone had answered this thread as I was a little apprehensive in starting it.

Thank you to all those who have expressed thoughts on this subject, there are some fantastic and thought provoking replies and I will add some more thoughts later when I have a little more time to type the response.
 
Hiya,

Just a little thought that occurred to me while reading this thread;

Anyone else think it's funny that nobody wants the 5th option...?

Personally, I like the fifth option. Pure supply and demand, let the market dictate what the price should be rather than the lower end of a pricing system.

I'm with you James.

It's been well over 4 years now since we've bought a property with a price tag on it. It's frustrating at first being a Buyer, but we found that frustration was borne out of a lack of knowing what the hell the property was really worth. It forced us to get off our bum, get out from behind the computer screen and go out and do the thorough ground work necessary....such that you didn't get ripped off.


Once you've weaned yourself off the Vendor dictating the price to you via a nominated number, it's all apples.

The OTP (offers to purchase) or EOI (expression of interest) method of selling does a few things ;

1. Really makes the Buyer assess the property. They need to do thorough research to come up with a true market value. 5 minute internet fly-bys don't cut the mustard - which is what the slack buyers want.
2. Forces the Buyer to put in their "best Offer"....none of this dropping 50 lowball offers around nonsense, waiting for some schmuck Vendor to bite on the bait. Also eliminates all of this toing and froing argy bargy.
3. Forces the Buyer to only bid on the properties that they are serious with. Cuts down on alot of the noise and unnecessary fluff that the internet generates.
4. Gives maximum power in the sale process to the Vendor. The Buyer is left completely out in the dark. They don't know who their competition is, they don't know "the ballpark figure" and they cannot argy bargy.....AND most importantly, they cannot load up the Offer with a whole bunch of weasly 'get out clauses'.


The best thing about this method is that the slack Buyers never follow through with it, it's all too hard, and so your competition is reduced....but the competition you do have are really serious, so if you want the place you've got to go hard with your one and only bid.


Note well : The vast majority of quality property is marketed in this method. It is extremely rare to get places above 5M marketed in any other fashion.


It all comes down to how much you want the property.


Personally, if I ever sold a property, it would be via this method, but on top of the OTP method, I would go back to the days where the potential Buyer would have to write their offer to the Vendor and deliver it to a PO Box # by a certain date. No internet coverage whatsoever, no email and definitely no mobile phone number. I would not make it easy for the "internet surfer" Buyers.
 
The vast majority of quality property is marketed in this method. It is extremely rare to get places above 5M marketed in any other fashion.

It all comes down to how much you want the property.

I think the question was about residential houses and there are not many of them over the 5M mark.

When you are selling a $500K house, EOI just is not necessary IMHO.

We put in a tender on a house about ten years ago (since renovated and sold for about $3M but back then, the vendor was looking for a price with a "5" in front of it, according to the agent. We thought it would be worth buying for $550K or a little more). They used your favoured method, all three contracts fell short and no sale.

We wanted the house, but were not prepared to pay a premium just to win the tender. If they had just listed a price, I imagine all three contracts would have been higher. Ours certainly would have been higher.

The problem with listing a residential house with no price is that many potential buyers just don't bother, unless they really fall in love with it. We did fall in love with this house and stretched as far as we could. The two other contracts were higher than ours, but at least $50K short of what the vendor wanted.

So, that vendor spent good money on a marketing "programme", had an anxious wait for the tender date to roll around, only to have nobody offer anything near what she wanted.

I agree that what you buy may very well work using the method you prefer, but a "run of the mill" residential house can fairly easily have a price placed on it. If it is too dear, nobody will bite and it will go stale. If it is underpriced, the vendor will be swamped with offers, and a good agent will get a good price for them.

If I had a residential property that was so unusual or rare that an agent could not give me a realistic price, I would probably auction it, but it would not be my first choice.
 
Question?
Those of you who have bought with out visiting the property, such as interstate, if there is no price as in option 5, how do you sort through potential buys.

Do you view web page in order of price and guess the asking price is where it lands on the list?
Do you go by the Picture, location, given details etc and then call.

What quick method do you use to decide from the many places for sale?
 
I like option 3 the best. I'm a newbie (currently looking for IP #2) and tend to shy away from opotion 5 listings. I know it's all about knowing your market, but being new in the game, my confidence/ negotiation skills are low and I am not a fan of not having an initial number to work with (more bargains for the rest of you!).
 
We wanted the house, but were not prepared to pay a premium just to win the tender. If they had just listed a price, I imagine all three contracts would have been higher. Ours certainly would have been higher.

We must be having one of our usual mis-communication things again, because that makes no sense to me wylie. I think you are saying you used your less than best offer and then missed out ??

The problem with listing a residential house with no price is that many potential buyers just don't bother, unless they really fall in love with it. We did fall in love with this house and stretched as far as we could. The two other contracts were higher than ours, but at least $50K short of what the vendor wanted.

Sounds like all three parties couldn't afford it to me. IMO, the objective when selling property is to achieve the price you want, not sell the property to the highest bidder. If the bidders don't cut the mustard - no deal. Of course, as a Vendor, you need to ensure that you are not forced to take any or all of the Offers.


So, that vendor spent good money on a marketing "programme", had an anxious wait for the tender date to roll around, only to have nobody offer anything near what she wanted.

Much better to have that, than undersell yourself by 50K, IMO.

I also don't subscribe to the theory of exposing your property widely to all and sundry. When selling, I'm after one high bidder with a clean contract, not 500 people trapsing through the place tyre kicking.

Your other points are well considered though, IMO.
 
What I was trying to say (not very well perhaps :)) was that this particular "landmark" house was being marketed as a tender in order to get the best and highest price from any interested parties, but it didn't work.

We thought the house was "value" at $550K but didn't want to pay what we considered "market value". We wanted a bargain, but obviously the other two offers were wanting a bargain as well. I guess all three offers were doing what we were, offering what they thought would be accepted, but not paying too much.

I know that if the agent had listed it for offers over $620 we would not have bothered. But we didn't think it was worth that.

So we did fall in love with it, but didn't let our hearts rule our heads. Somebody else paid about $620K or $640K (cannot remember), spent money on it and resold it a year or two ago for a big gain. They then bought (sight unseen) over the internet a $7M riverside house (so I am told). They were overseas at the time and bought on the net :eek:. So it does happen.

I think that once a house gets over the million dollar mark they can be marketed differently, because the pool of buyers is much smaller, but I do think that your normal "average" house can easily be priced within a reasonable range.

Not sure if that makes more sense. And I agree with you about marketing to all and sundry. I think if we sold, we would not have open houses, but inspections, to stop every man and his dog traipsing through, but would decide at the time whether to do this or not.

I do believe what you buy is a different kettle of fish altogether and cannot be viewed, priced or marketed like a house.
 
The psychology of selling is a complicated issue and must have volumes written about it and I don’t profess to know it all; however with many years of practice and quite a few mistakes along the way and a reasonable amount of success, I feel fairly confident in discussing the subject here.

When I wrote the first post I suggested that we forget the Seller for the purpose of answering the question, but in reality, as they are half of the equation, we can’t really do so. In all my years of selling, I have never had a Seller say to me “I want to sell as fast as I can and I’ll take whatever offer comes in” and likewise from a Buyer, I have never heard “I want to buy now and I’ll pay whatever it takes”. Nothing strange here as we are programmed to expect that other people will always try to rip us off. Whether buying or selling we have similar fears – the fear of loss, which by the way is far greater than the pleasure of profit.
Buyer - Pay too much = loss or Seller - Sell too cheap = loss

Interestingly of the 9 people who were prepared to offer their thoughts, 7 wanted a price top work down from and 2 actually wanted an Auction or EOP, no price method.

In my opinion one of the better answers to the thread thus far is from Dazz expanding on JamesGG’s answer. Dazz makes some very important comments and they are well worth reading again. I am equally sure that most Buyers don’t like Auctions due to the uncertainty of success combined with perhaps their lack of previous research and the BS that so many Agents speak by way of answer to genuine questions.

Unfazed, in post #3 has some very good points also although I was trying not to complicate the question. There is no doubt that, as an Agent, some properties are more difficult than others to set a price on and this is the key issue as to why there are so many ways to market property. It’s been said often on this site that a property is worth what a Buyer is prepared to pay for it. The only problem with this comment is the missing other half of the equation and the statement should read, A property is only worth what a Buyer is prepared to pay and a Seller is prepared to accept.

As I stated at the beginning, I believe that no 5, selling without a price, is perhaps the fairest way to present property to the market. Expressions of interest are OK but I feel that Auctions are far more transparent and would result in the better outcome for the Seller. The Seller has the property and the Buyer has money, the Seller has the right to look for the Buyer who offers the most money and this can be best achieved by Auction due to open and visual competition. Reality dictates that due to bad auctions, unqualified Agents, bad Auctioneers, lack of competition this method will not be the norm for some time yet.

Earlier in my first post, I mentioned that there were reasons that I could see this method becoming the preferred method as time goes buy. Let me explain a little here. The obligations under the privacy Act and Do Not Call register (almost 1 in 3 people are now on this register) are becoming increasingly stronger and it won’t be long before someone has a judgment ruled against them. Public sentiment and demand if forcing RP Data to remove all names and addresses from their property files and an increasing number of sales are being recorded without a sale figure. If this trend continues, Agents will not be able to give accurate CMA’s (Competitive Market Analysis) and thus will not be prepared to give opinions on value. Sellers may have to pay a Registered Valuer to give them a valuation and this is always a range (they are allowed to be out 10% either way).

Litigation is becoming more frequent and it will only take a few cases to set the trend. I was talking to a lawyer last week and he mentioned a case where he was witnessing a contract for a Purchaser buying off the plan where he made a simple statement to the effect “that looks like a nice unit and should be a good deal”. On completion of the sale the Purchaser attempted to resell the unit and due to the state of the market he lost $40K. Guess who had to pay? Yep the Lawyer (or his insurance company and him through increased premiums).

The purpose of this post was to show that there are a lot of ways to present a property for sale and we haven’t even discussed advertising (another big issue for Sellers). 26 replies and no complete agreement here, imagine how difficult it is for the Agent trying to satisfy so many differing viewpoints. No wonder many get it wrong.

Thanks for your time.
 
When I get around to selling mine in a year or so, I'm going to advertise it at a ludicrous wishing price, say $90k, pray that some sucker buys it for that exorbitant sum of money, and just take anything over $75k. Agents out this way are dreadful, which isn't going to help my case.

Of course the place will probably sit on the market for 6 months or more. I'm still trying to convince the other half not to move twice in the next 2 years so that it isn't so critical to sell this place for over $75k, but he's not convinced.
 
As I stated at the beginning, I believe that no 5, selling without a price, is perhaps the fairest way to present property to the market.

It may be so but whenever I do an online search in RE.com I enter both the bottom and top price. Anything without a price is automatically disregarded, no ifs no buts. I wonder how many in here are doing the same thing.
 
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I thought that it might make an interesting post to attempt to find out how Buyers (lets forget Sellers for the point of this exercise) would like to see property sold.

Here are a couple of options.
1.The list price is the price that the Seller wants and there is no negotiation.
2.The list price is the lowest price and the Seller will only accept offers over this price.
3.The list price is the highest price that the Seller would expect and all offers should be considered.
4.There is a price range given, ‘Offers between $x and $y’.
5.There is no price at all and Buyers must come up with their own value.

WHAT MOST PEOPLE ARE USED TO

For the majority of people (and myself as a newcomer), option 3 without a doubt.

Forget real estate and think about trash & treasure markets, ads in the Trading Post or the local used car yard where the following conversation takes place thousands of times a day:

"Emmachisit?"
"20 dollars"
"I'll give you $15"
"$18"
"OK - I'll have it"

Why is real estate any different? If there is to be legislation and only one pricing option was allowed, then that's the one most would be comfortable with.

ANCHORS

A fixed asking price gives the buyer an anchor. Business-minded buyers with a keen eye for values don't need one but most people (ie most of the market) do feel more comfortable with a starting point.

If the secret of making money is 'giving buyers what they want (incl finding a way to profit from this)' then this is at odds with a negotiating maxim 'that the first person who nominates a figure is the loser'.

I admit that I would not have flown across the country to buy IPs if the places I ended up getting either had no asking price or the subject of an auction.

PLANTING AND NURTURING THE SEED TO BUY

Locally, if a property in an agents window doesn't have an address and an asking price I'm not interested. Why? Because I'm lazy.

Though if I'm really serious then I'll sometimes enquire, but it depends on how I'm feeling on the day. That's my problem, not the agents. But it could be the vendors problem if it means I miss out on being exposed to a suitable property.

There's a bit of control-freakery involved - some agents (especially Jenmans) think that withholding information gives them a better sales opportunity since buyers MUST phone to get basic info and the agents can do their sales spiel (ie 'qualify' you and maybe sell another). This could also be seen as a hoop to discourage tyre-kickers, but at the same time agents time can be wasted on basic/boring questions that a good ad would answer (eg address, price and bedrooms).

Is a good property love at first sight, or is it one that gradually grows on you? If the former then the buyer will gladly jump through hoops. But if the buyer interest is initially marginal then any obstacle (even if just phoning an agent) is too much and a buyer has just been lost.

There's nothing more fragile than an new idea (in this case to buy), and even the most trivial hoops (eg a receptionist who can't help, lack of published address or price, inconvenient opening hours etc) can stop it from growing. Hence a fleeting idea does not progress to become an inspection, there is no inspection to become an offer, and there's no offer to become a purchase.

THE EFFECT OF INCREASING BUYER EXPERIENCE AND THE SEARCH FOR VALUE

My observation (similar to JamesGG & Daz) is that the more experienced/business minded buyers need no anchors. They know how much the property is worth to them based on what they can do with the property and/or comparative sales and yields*.

Researching prospective purchases is a continual search for value, and the sale method really doesn't matter provided the price and sale conditions meet the buyers needs. But annoying buyers is not a good move, and some of the trickery that Ian Reid encourages (refer widely advertised free pamphlets) could do just that. When buying I think there is only one me and many properties, so try not to get wound up on one and am always comparing with others (even if 99% serious on one).

THE BUYER'S REACTION TO VARIOUS SALE OPTIONS

Each sales option has a different effect on the buyer, though my theory is the effect diminishes with buyer experience.

But bear in mind we're talking about a mass market (rather than an elite of investors who may not pay top dollar) and the agent ignores this at his peril. So his sale method must not discourage the average Joe (assuming we're talking about normal suburban houses; blocks of apartments & commercial may be different).

So for most people the method of sale can encourage or discourage buyers.

Let's look at the options again:

1.The list price is the price that the Seller wants and there is no negotiation.
2.The list price is the lowest price and the Seller will only accept offers over this price.
3.The list price is the highest price that the Seller would expect and all offers should be considered.
4.There is a price range given, ‘Offers between $x and $y’.
5.There is no price at all and Buyers must come up with their own value.

As a buyer I like the straighforwardness of 3. Pay asking and you'll get it. Offer less and you might not get it. If you're desperate you'll pay asking, if not you'll offer less.

1. may cause me to walk away, though if I really want it then I'll put in a lower offer anyway. Then it becomes more like 3. If I desperately want it as a PPOR then I might offer list price and it's just a harder negotiated version of 3.

Value has always been important to me. My first IP was advertised with a fixed price. I considered this a fair price and paid it without haggling since I considered this represented good value against comparative properties and yields.

2 and 4. irritate me as a buyer. I feel like the agent is the cat and I'm the bit of meat he's playing with. I want a straightforward amount that will buy the property (as per 3). In both cases where I've bought properties advertised this way I've offered below the asking price (or the lower limit). In one case I ended up buying it for less than the lower limit of the range. In the other (PPOR) I ended up paying a little ($700!) above the $X+. I did not protract the haggling as I believed it was value and knew I couldn't buy better (after researching housing stock in area).

5. Has the lack of anchor problem mentioned before. Will probably discourage most of the market for most properties. But not an issue for sophisticated buyers.

EFFECT OF ASKING PRICE

The actual figures can be (though they shouldn't be) influential. Say a fair price for a property was $200k. Advertising may be as follows for the various methods:

1. might be set at $200k
2. might be $180k+ (or for a Melbourne auction $160k+ )
3. might be $210k
4. might be $180 - 220k (or for a Melbourne Auction $160 - 180k)

Because I'm a value-seeking investor I might want it for $180k. But then that's me and I don't pay top price. Unless the vendor wants a quick sale, I probably won't be the buyer.

Admittedly a range like 4 would encourage me to offer below the lower figure more than 3. What I don't know about 4 is where the seller has put their price - is it midway in the range near the bottom or near the top? I won't know unless I put in an offer and see how far they come down to. As 1 was non-negotiable I might give that a miss.

But as an 'ordinary buyer' option 3 of the fixed price that's negotiable is most sensible and straightforward and might discourage stupid lowball offers more than a range with a low start.

If option 3 of a single price ($X) is sensible then I'm disposed to think - here's a straighforward vendor, the price is good value so I'll pay it in full with a minimum of haggle. The same applies to option 2 if the basic price is excellent value and the '+' is very small (maybe up to a few thousand).

If an asking price is not given, I'll try to get one out of the agent. And if it doesn't represent my idea of value then I either won't offer or will put in a cheap one. And if the latter, try to string the agent out (eg not come straight back to a counteroffer) or put a deadline. But in these cases it doesn't matter if I miss out on the property and there'll be another along to offer on before long.

As a final though, what's best for confident value-seeking investor buyers is different to Joe Average. And Joe Average provides the bulk of the market and may pay more than investors (at least for low-middle end property) it's important to have a sales method friendly to him. Because of its similarities with many other transactions, 3. above is it.

Other target markets respond to different sales methods. Others might be completely indifferent, only caring about the price and value of their purchase, not its sale method :)

Peter

(*) Though sales data is imperfect and if most properties don't even have asking prices then information is asymetrical and this becomes guesswork for most. The market becomes more imperfect due to poor information. Imperfect markets lead to more unequal outcomes (greater chance of paying too much or getting a bargain) but generally present more opportunities to savvy buyers.
 
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Just to go back to James/Dazz's post re due diligence, I think there are 2 different sorts of due diligence here.

One is knowing your market well, so that one can put an accurate worth on a particular property.
Two is doing your due diligence so you know everything about a particular property (so that you can then do #1).

Obviously nobody is going to do #1 for you - it requires work on your behalf. This is the important one that ensures you are getting a good deal (or fair price etc). It is the one you talk about.

On the other hand, I want the ad to do as much of #2 as possible. This is more of a 'narrowing down the options' type process, using your knowledge (diligence #1) and ad/phone info. This diligence doesn't determine the offer price (#1 does that), though will affect whether you get as far as making an offer. If a common home is EOP (or advertised with little info), am I being lazy if I ignore it due to #2, even if I have excellent knowledge of the market (#1)?

If into high end or commercial stuff, there is going to less on offer anyway, so #2 is less relevant.

Open houses, inspections etc, are really a different matter again. Policy on these can be independant of amount of info in ad, type of sale etc. It is possible to have open houses with a EOP, or not have them with the other options.
 
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Excellent post, Spiderman. Must admit I had a bit of a chuckle at your comments about 'for a Melbourne auction' - how very true!! Kudos coming your way.

Cheers
LynnH
 
Using rugs as an analogy (Just because I admire this 'Craig' guy), Rugs-a-million wouldn't be anywhere near as successful if they didn't have a 'sale' every week.

Who would have thought you could get a $3000 rug for only $49? It probably cost Craig less than half that price.

Ha, good one! I can't remember the last time I saw a rug place that wasn't offering "MINIMUM 70% OFF ALL STOCK!" :D
 
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