Hubby got terminated

[Piston Broke]

Piston Broke...you sound angry.
And heartless.

lol maybe, but I'd say motivated. And no good manager has not been called that and more btw.
And I too know there is always another side.

I would have thought that getting to a certain level of success allows one to switch from being a wealth creator to a wealth custodian. (Isn't that where the real juice lies???) To that end, the well being of your staff is simply one in a long line of custodial monetary responsibilities you hold once you become (or create) yourself as the principal/owner of an enterprise.

Yes, but custodian for who?
If i was giving seminars, then I'd make donations and issue press releases about being a social custodian of funds for others so you can buy my $5k course.

So where in all this did you decide to be become a self interested jerk who chooses to see fellow human beings (whether they are educated or not, invested in their own wealth creation or not) simply as economic units?

lol this on a forum where most people argue about saving $10 and a couple hundred bux is a too much to keep in your pocket.
This is also the typical description of an owner from an employee with a grudge.
The good employees got much more than entitled. They left for geo/personal reasons. Why keep the rest? But I gave them a few chances, and either they can't make it work, or economic conditions are not ideal. I know the real answer. But either way I can sell out and take my profits and re-deploy my capital in more efficient ways. That's what a good wealth custodian does.

I sincerely wish you: joy, success, vitality, abundance, exuberance and laughter.

Thank you, same to you.

This is how most people try to run businesses PB.
You are, in fact, normal. So go easy on yourself.

Bayview that was a long time ago, I been self employed >20yrs.
I went through that process long ago, but times change as do people.
Having choices and taking them is what it's all about.
And if what I'm doing is "normal", then I desperately need a change!
Don't you call me "normal" you @#$#!@~!

 

[Moving Forward]

TFPKAD

You are right in your legalese ...it is the legal system but we are seeking 'justice' !!!

Like your signature ..it's only one of our 1000 wishes ..hubby has already
started pursuing the 999 other employment opportunities.

And I am confident he'll get there ...

 

[BayView]

Bayview that was a long time ago, I been self employed >20yrs.
I went through that process long ago, but times change as do people.
Having choices and taking them is what it's all about.
And if what I'm doing is "normal", then I desperately need a change!
Don't you call me "normal" you @#$#!@~!

Sorry for trying to be helpful.

 

[cgw]

I know how you feel. I have just through it. Go to www.fwa.gov.au heaps of information. (fair work Australia)
Lawyer was going to charge $1200, but partner got a job straight away, and said the compensation would not be worth it, as the compensation is for you to find a job etc.
The forms do not seem too hard to word. Just use the words, The employer failed to carry out procedural fairness in that they etc etc
Make a few phone calls, very time consuming, but ours was a small business and they did not know the proper rules, ie did not pay him 1 weeks notice. I got on the phone and quoted the award etc, and they paid him. He actually got fired, as it was a combination of Work Cover avoidance, Bullying and Bad Communication, but it was very hard for my partner to prove, as he had no witneses, and the bully did.
In fact we now want to send the bully a thank you note, my partner got poached, with a pay increase and much better working conditions.
Remember you only have 14 or 21 days to lodge it.
Good luck.

 

[willair]

Hi All - thought I'd seek some feedback here ...hubby has been working with a discount retailer for almost the last 8 years. This afternoon he got fired on grounds of poor performance. They paid out his long service and annual leave but there was no termination pay.

What legal recourse do we have ? We are caught offguard with this development as there were no forewarnings or anything of the like.

All comments appreciated.

just wondering afer all the different ways of looking at things,what will "hubby" do on monday morning,???every smart mind in Australia has given their opinion.willair..

 

[Piston Broke]

Sorry for trying to be helpful.

Oh common Bayview, I know your always being helpful.
You helpful, heartless humourless capitalistic biz owner.

cgw, why would anybody put up with that for even one day?
If you go back the next, there's no one else to blame but yourself.
As you say yourself, get over it and on with it.

And to repeat myself:
I've never met an employer who terminated a good employee.
And never met a bad employee who did'nt think he/she was good.
That's just how it goes.
Interesting to see you all coming here whinging on behalf of hubby though.
Maybe that's part of the problem...
that was also covered in The e-myth

 

[Moving Forward]

Willair ...my thanks to you and all the other smart minds in Australia who have contributed to my post, I have read and re-read these posts and it has been a quick learning curve and will enable us take a better decision on the way forward.

Since you ask - tomorrow (Monday) morning, hubby will start calling recruitment agencies to check what's available. He has been busy emailing applications all of today and, yes, we will also put in that claim on the Fair Work site for unfair dismissal ...thanks CGW, we have completed the form and will attach the list of alleged 'performance issues'. Hubby had a call from one of his colleagues who advised that subsequent to his departure, the manager told other staff that they let him go due to a business decision. Well, that surely is the company's prerogative but to be treated fairly is hubby's !

Hubby will even consider a contract position as we have a holiday booked over Christmas. Fortunately, with last week's interest rate hike and the upswing in the market, a suitable role will not be hard to come by.

 

[BayView]

Oh common Bayview, I know your always being helpful.
You helpful, heartless humourless capitalistic biz owner.

I think I'm missing your point here.

Have you got a beef, or is this dry-witted humour?

 

[Piston Broke]

I think I'm missing your point here.
Have you got a beef, or is this dry-witted humour?

The only beef I have is in the freezer, which I'm happy to share.

 

[steveadl]

Trying not to be too harsh, but I don't see anything wrong with what PB or BV have said. They're coming from the bosses angle obviously, not the workers.

Let's be honest, if a worker is doing a great job and is valuable to the company - he won't be fired, especially in a big company where there are 10's or hundreds that can get the sack before things are so bad they need to let the good one go. Even the position being made redundant wouldn't stop them from keeping the worker if they were that valuable - they'd just be shuffled to another position/division within the co., or at least offered the role if it was a step down which they could then choose to reject themselves.

So I can understand reading this thread from a bosses view why you would get a little bit irritated with all the talk of "well see the tribunal" or whatever. If it's come to the point where they've fired you, they obviously have issues with you (justified in your eyes or not) and no longer feel you are the person they want in their organisation. They have also paid out all entitlements, as well as 4 weeks notice.

They did also supply a list of grievances/issues. Would it have been better if they just used the perfectly legal excuse of an adverse change in business conditions?

 

[rotterdam]

Oh common Bayview, I know your always being helpful.
You helpful, heartless humourless capitalistic biz owner.

cgw, why would anybody put up with that for even one day?
If you go back the next, there's no one else to blame but yourself.
As you say yourself, get over it and on with it.

And to repeat myself:
I've never met an employer who terminated a good employee.
And never met a bad employee who did'nt think he/she was good.
/QUOTE]

Your experience may be true in the SME where management have a good idea of what each person does.

Plenty of times in larger corporations many good people are let go while less productive people stay. Management styles, personalities, jobs for the boys, nepotism, mergers, incompetence are all reasons why some times good workers grow wings while less productive others stay.

Regards,

 

[Moving Forward]

Steve ..ah ha ..another management perspective from you and you are well entitled to those views.

Let's take a step back and you might possibly understand that in these large companies there's several layers of management. We got to know y'day from various calls that hubby's boss had his hands tied ..he had to follow orders from the top ..and those powers that be ..simply requested that one of their staff be retained and another let go ..did I mention that an integration of the function over the NSW and TAS operations is on the cards.

Anyway, hubby was let go and I'm sure this is possibly the kick in the pants he needed to get moving on to bigger and better !!

Thankfully, Rotterdam can understand where we're coming from

Plenty of times in larger corporations many good people are let go while less productive people stay. Management styles, personalities, jobs for the boys, nepotism, mergers, incompetence are all reasons why some times good workers grow wings while less productive others stay

Hubby has all his Performance Appraisals over 7 years on hand...they do not state 'not good enough' or request improvement. How does anyone know if their performance is not up to sratch if they're being patted on the back ?

So if for business reasons, they needed to let one staff member go..hubby should have been made redundant and paid out but we now understand that if this was done another person could not be 'hired' in the same position over the next 6 months.

So they went with termination over 'alleged' performance issues.

Anyway, the claim for 'unfair dismissal' has been filed as due process was not followed and we'll watch this space !

 

[aussierogue]

You will win I can feel it in my waters...or maybe thats just the dodgy vindaloo...

BTW I reckon that alot of the debate centres around an idea that is flawed. That somehow a company and its managers are not responsible for getting the best out of their employees. i have seen heaps of occassions where companies have made stupid decisisons only to blame the worker.

I remember Brashs in the early 1990's blaming bad performance on people not working hard enough. they gathered 30,000 people at the tennis centre and asked everyone to work 10 percent harder to get management out of a predicament that they engineered.

Managers and owners have responsibilites in hiring, training, providing leaderships and direction - not just expecting people to rock up, spill blood and then appreciate the owners for providing 'work'.

 

[Harris]

This is not a matter of right or wrong..

It is simply a case of a person asking for advice where that person believes that proper laws/ process was not followed during the termination by the employer.

There is no point grand standing or trying to play devil's advocate or ridiculing someone who perhaps is in difficulty or suffering (however superficial we believe that might be).

No point advising her to "move forward". She has a right to take her claim and it is absolutely moral and ethical as well for her to seek recourse, if it is evident that due processes were not followed through when her husband was terminated from employment.

Looking down, ridiculing, passing judgements, "I-am-an-employer-and-have-a-god-given-right-to-judge-people", grand standing etal is more of a reflection of the small-mindedness of such people.

I know a colleague who was terminated from his role very recently as a senior manager (Director) with a multi national firm. He has been an employer almost all his life (managing a team of over 700 staff) and was terminated on poor performance. He sued - but through arbitration process he has received over $1m + legal costs + relocating to his hometown (Melbourne) including a 25 day temporary residence at Park Hyatt in Melbourne for his family, whilst he buys a new house to live in...

If someone had told him to "move forward" he would have the right answer for those and would tell them where to go. Even his millions of dollars in annual salary and stock were not sufficient to cop "what he believed" to be a wrong decision on the chin.

Moving Forward, go ahead with your claim and seek any recourse (even if it involves going to the highest level) either for money or for principle. Just ensure that sometimes risks and costs are not worth the journey and settlement (both financially and emotionally) might not be worth the effort, but dont get disheartened by some fringe comments.

If there is a legal recourse, please seek and if it means benefiting financially, then persue that too.


Good luck

Harris

Trying not to be too harsh, but I don't see anything wrong with what PB or BV have said. They're coming from the bosses angle obviously, not the workers.

Let's be honest, if a worker is doing a great job and is valuable to the company - he won't be fired, especially in a big company where there are 10's or hundreds that can get the sack before things are so bad they need to let the good one go. Even the position being made redundant wouldn't stop them from keeping the worker if they were that valuable - they'd just be shuffled to another position/division within the co., or at least offered the role if it was a step down which they could then choose to reject themselves.

So I can understand reading this thread from a bosses view why you would get a little bit irritated with all the talk of "well see the tribunal" or whatever. If it's come to the point where they've fired you, they obviously have issues with you (justified in your eyes or not) and no longer feel you are the person they want in their organisation. They have also paid out all entitlements, as well as 4 weeks notice.

They did also supply a list of grievances/issues. Would it have been better if they just used the perfectly legal excuse of an adverse change in business conditions?

 

[steveadl]

Moving Forward, go ahead with your claim and seek any recourse (even if it involves going to the highest level) either for money or for principle. Just ensure that sometimes risks and costs are not worth the journey and settlement (both financially and emotionally) might not be worth the effort, but dont get disheartened by some fringe comments.

That's pretty much my feeling on the subject too, but trying to bring some balance and point out the other side and that MF's views may be slightly biased and to think it through thoroughly before taking it "to the highest level" on principle etc.

For example if it happened to my fiancee next week, whilst I wouldn't be particularly happy about it - I'm also practical and wouldn't encourage her to go to tribunals/mediation etc etc. She's in a relatively standard, average wage job. Now if she was an executive earning multi millions as in your example I may think differently about the situation (or for example if they didn't pay out her leave etc). For a few $k I don't think it's worth the heart ache and better just to move on with life.

I'm seeing my brother going through this exact process as we speak. Through the courts for about 2yrs so far and about $100k worth of lawyers fees on each side and end is not in sight yet. In his particular case, I happen to believe he was in the right - but I still wouldn't have taken the court path he's chosen to follow and the cost and stress that's going along with it to both him and his family.

But hey, that's just me, my opinion and what I would do in the situation.

 

[twobobsworth]

Any updates?

 

[artemis]

am eager to know what happened too.

good luck to you moving forward

 

[Moving Forward]

What a great outcome !

Harris and Aussierogue - special round of thanks to you for your support and kind comments.

Some of the others were quite harsh and unjust - why would you stamp on someone who was already feeling quite down ???

We had a telecon conciliation last Friday with a conciliator from FairWork Australia and hubby's employer. Anyway, his direct supervisor (guy with no b*lls) did not attend (we learned afterwards that he was present at the meeting but chose to listen and prompt the HR manager) and only the HR Manager was there.

The Conciliator went through the claim and asked for proof that the company's documented Performance Management policy had been followed. The company had only come up with some measly diary entries from the boss. Surely this could not be counted in a court of law !

Anyway, the HR Manager seemed very sheepish and said that they could not find any relevant paperwork i.e. any warning letters etc ..so the Conciliator said 'that means these are non existent'. Anyway, after much tooing and froing... they were granted until this morning to supply additional documentation or settle.

The FWA Conciliator was to call hubby this morning to advise of any further paperwork and set a date for another round of conciliation if the employer did not agree to our claims. She also mentioned that an early settlement was advisable so that we could move on; else a date for hearing could be only set for Feb 2010.

Anyway, hubby got called by the Conciliator at 9 am this morning and was told that he would be paid 12 weeks pay. Woohoo, what a great outcome ! Justice has prevailed, God has been our witness and we are so grateful

Also, hubby started a temp role with the public service on Tuesday this week. He is so taken aback with the relaxed attitude and I was telling him that this will be a great opportunity for him to smell the roses and consider life on the other side. He has run the corporate race for the last 3 decades.

Thanks for sharing my problem and am sure that some of you will share in our joy !

PS : I must add that best of all, this did not cost us anything in legal fees (TFPKAD - do you hear that ??) ..we only paid the Fairwork Australia application fee of $56.

 

[cu@thetop]

PS : I must add that best of all, this did not cost us anything in legal fees (TFPKAD - do you hear that ??) ..we only paid the Fairwork Australia application fee of $56.

No legals?-nice.
TPFKAD hears no more- he has vacated this forum.

Well done.

 

[nhb74]

awesome news.. nice work

Andrew