Incorrect Accounting Advice re CGT - Help please Depreciator!

Hi, and help please.
We sold an IP that we had held in our personal names for over six years, and after all the purchase/sale costs we made a profit of $100,000, or $50,000 each. With the 50% rule, this is reduced to $50,000 total or $25,000 each Assume we are on the highest tax scale, this would mean that we would pay an additional roughly $12,000 tax each on top of any other PAYG (employee tax)

And indeed, that was the advice from our accountant, one of them anyway, they work in a group. I have it in writing from him in an email, outlining all the costs and inputs. As a result we had been having higher deductions taken out of our salary so we wouldnt get a shock at the end of the FY assessment.

We have now got our tax returns. Another accountant (same group) has added the depreciation that we were claiming for six or so years, increasing our tax bill HUGELY! Like $12,000 extra.

So, on the basis of the incorrect advice, where do we stand legally, as we have now entered into another property purchase and really, dont have the cash, just to pay it like that! I dont manage our affairs that way and would have taken out more tax if I had known the true CGT situation.

We have been given incorrect financial advice - where do we stand? I would have done things so differently if I had been given correct advice. And I am so, so :mad:
 
Hi

The depreciation on the Plant should not be added back at all. Just the Building Amortisation.

I would make a time to sit down with the accountant and go through the initial advice and ITR so that you are both on the same page.

Good luck

Dale
 
As Dale states, depreciation reduces your cost base.
If you have an asset worth 10,000 and you have claimed 1,000 in depreciation, then sell it for 20,000, your gain is 20000-(10,000-1,000) = 11,000.
I dont see any reason why this would be added back on sale...
sounds a bit odd that you have a number of different accountants working on your return, perhaps there are communication problems at their end?
 
Just to explain, my old Accountant joined forces with another when the GST came in; gradually he transferred my business into the merged practice, but I still seek him out for advice, and the advice I got on this issue was in 2004 when we first put the appartment on the market. It took over 19 months to sell!

I have just spoken to the ATO, and I gave the person all the figures of the sale/purchase. We came to 2 conclusions:

The accountant has forgotten that the total CGT should be split between husband and I - instead he has allocated us both the total amount; OR

If he has remembered to split the CGT, then on his calculations, the depreciation factor has doubled our CGT and the ATO person said she cannot imagine how this could be the case!

I am waiting on a call back. We pay them handsomly for their services, they do our company returns, SMSF returns (around $15,000 fees pa) so they damn well better get it right!
 
holy crap, that is a big fee!!
that is about 3 weeks solid work by a senior accounting partner on your work, you would hope they got it right!
 
He has now sent me a spreadsheet on his calculations. They are as follows:
Sale price $400,000
Less recoupment of cost of depreciable assets -$92,480

Purchase price $275,000
Less cost of depreciable assets included in purchase price -$160,590
Add costs of purchase $10,546

Add costs of sale $15,199

= CG of $167,369 to be split equally between the two of us

If this is right, then what is the point of investing in property!!!!!! give me shares anyday!
 
Hi

The amount of depreciation looks wrong.

For a property sold at that value and held for about 6 years the building depreciation cannot be correct. They mjsut ahve included the depreciation on plant and chattels and this would be incorrect.

I would ask them to clarify the depreciation amount added back and ensure that they have not added back the depreciation on plant or chattels.

Have fun

Dale

He has now sent me a spreadsheet on his calculations. They are as follows:
Sale price $400,000
Less recoupment of cost of depreciable assets -$92,480

Purchase price $275,000
Less cost of depreciable assets included in purchase price -$160,590
Add costs of purchase $10,546

Add costs of sale $15,199

= CG of $167,369 to be split equally between the two of us

If this is right, then what is the point of investing in property!!!!!! give me shares anyday!
 
Thankyou people for all your input. This is what he has used for depreciation:
Cost of Plant less adjustments
Building 114718
Low Valued Pool 29955
Tiling 1320
Electrical Reticulation 6173
Water Mains 2603
Cabinet work 5821

This correlates to the $160,590 above. These have been written down to the other figure above!


Oh, and we had it for just over 8 F/years, May - August!
Does this make any sense? It does sound like Plant has been included because that was in the heading!
 
As Dale said, something looks wrong with that depreciation amount. I've been out of the office all day today, but I'm in all day tomorrow. Give me a call and we'll have a chat about it.
Scott
 
Hi

I know I am starting to sound like a broken record here....but only the depreciation claimed on the building has to be added back for CGT purposes. The LVP does not have an impact on the CGT calculation at all.

And, even over 8 years instead of 6 the numbers do not work for the calculation to be done properly.

You will need to push hard on this...

Dale

Thankyou people for all your input. This is what he has used for depreciation:
Cost of Plant less adjustments
Building 114718
Low Valued Pool 29955
Tiling 1320
Electrical Reticulation 6173
Water Mains 2603
Cabinet work 5821

This correlates to the $160,590 above. These have been written down to the other figure above!


Oh, and we had it for just over 8 F/years, May - August!
Does this make any sense? It does sound like Plant has been included because that was in the heading!
 
Hi

I know I am starting to sound like a broken record here....but only the depreciation claimed on the building has to be added back for CGT purposes. The LVP does not have an impact on the CGT calculation at all.

And, even over 8 years instead of 6 the numbers do not work for the calculation to be done properly.

You will need to push hard on this...

Dale

I have tried for years to stop my tax accountant adding back ALL depreciation claimed.
 
Its surprising how few people know this.

I have NEVER seen one seminar, where people being sold property, have had this explained to them.

In fact rarely have i seen the full in and out costs and during costs - ever shown to the full extent.

This certainly added fuel to the fire.

Regards
 
I have tried for years to stop my tax accountant adding back ALL depreciation claimed.

So why has this guy got it so wrong - how can I prove to him that he is using incorrect figures? After speaking to the ATO yesterday, they were astounded by his figures too, so I cant be that wrong, can I:eek:
 
Pushka, do you know who is actaully doing you return? I've found in the past that although you might meet with a senior accountant in their office and handover your stuff to them, in fact they give it to a junior non-CPA jockey to punch in the numbers and then don't adequately check the assumptions.

Good luck, I know this time of year is not exactly the right time to switch acocuntants but it sounds like you might consider progressively switching during this current financial year.

cheers :)
 
I don't think timing should be a consideration in switching accountants. There is never a bad time. If you are not getting what you are entitled to, and tis taking away your precious time and money...then that is a good time to change. It can save you heaps!
 
Once we've got things clear, I'll have a chat with him if you'd like Pushka. I talk to accountants all the time. Accountants tend to be generalists. Depreciation is a tiny part of tax. I know a bit about depreciation, but you could drive a truck through the holes in my knowledge about lots of other things.
Scott
 
The law - Part 1 - ATO Ruling

Hi

See if this helps in your discussions:

ATO Interpretative Decision
ATO ID 2004/404
Income Tax
Capital gains tax: cost base: adjustment for capital works expenditure deducted

FOI status: may be released
Status of this decision: Decision Current

CAUTION: This is an edited and summarised record of a Tax Office decision. This record is not published as a form of advice. It is being made available for your inspection to meet FOI requirements, because it may be used by an officer in making another decision.

This ATOID provides you with the following level of protection:

If you reasonably apply this decision in good faith to your own circumstances (which are not materially different from those described in the decision), and the decision is later found to be incorrect you will not be liable to pay any penalty or interest. However, you will be required to pay any underpaid tax (or repay any over-claimed credit, grant or benefit), provided the time limits under the law allow it. If you do intend to apply this decision to your own circumstances, you will need to ensure that the relevant provisions referred to in the decision have not been amended or repealed. You may wish to obtain further advice from the Tax Office or from a professional adviser.



Issue


Is the cost base of a CGT asset acquired after 7.30pm (ACT legal time) on 13 May 1997 reduced by any amount allowed as a capital works deduction under Division 43 of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997 (ITAA 1997) in respect of the asset?

Decision


Yes. Subsections 110-45(2) and 110-45(4) of the ITAA 1997 require the cost base of such assets to be reduced by amounts deducted, or which can be deducted, under Division 43 of the ITAA 1997.

Facts


The taxpayer acquired a commercial property (land and buildings) in 2000 for $1 million. This amount is the first element of the property's cost base. The building is not a separate asset from the land for CGT purposes.

The taxpayer then spent $250,000 on altering and improving the building. This amount is the fourth element of the property's cost base.

The taxpayer sold the property in 2003 for $3 million.

In respect of their ownership period, the taxpayer was entitled to deduct, under Division 43 of the ITAA 1997, a portion of the capital works expenditure incurred by them in altering and improving the building and a portion of the expenditure incurred by the previous owner in constructing the building. The total amount the taxpayer deducted was $20,000, which was the total amount they were allowed to deduct under Division 43.

[History Note: The above paragraph has been amended so that the description of the facts is consistent with Taxation Determination
TD 2005/47.]

The taxpayer did not have a profit making intention and was not in the business of buying and selling properties.

Reasons for Decision


Section 110-25 of the ITAA 1997 sets out items that can be included in the cost base of a CGT asset. For assets acquired after 7.30pm (ACT legal time) on 13 May 1997, section 110-45» of the ITAA 1997 sets out certain items that do not form part of the cost base.

Expenditure incurred by a taxpayer does not form part of the cost base of a CGT asset to the extent that it is deducted or can be deducted (provided it has not already been excluded from cost base by subsection 110-45(1B)): subsection 110-45(2) of the ITAA 1997. Also, cost base is reduced by amounts deducted, or which can be deducted, in respect of expenditure incurred by another entity: subsection 110-45(4) of the ITAA 1997.

Broadly, Division 43 of the ITAA 1997 allows a deduction for capital works expenditure in respect of certain income producing buildings and structural improvements. The deduction is available for qualifying expenditure incurred by the taxpayer and also for qualifying expenditure incurred by a previous owner of the building or improvement. Qualifying expenditure is written-off (that is, deducted) over 25 or 40 years, depending on when the expenditure was incurred and the use of the building or structural improvement.

Subsection 110-45(2) of the ITAA 1997 has the effect that expenditure incurred by a taxpayer in respect of an asset, and for which a deduction has been allowed under Division 43 of the ITAA 1997, cannot be included in the asset's cost base. Further, subsection 110-45(4) of the ITAA 1997 means that cost base is also reduced by an amount deducted, or which can be deducted, under Division 43 in respect of expenditure incurred by another entity. The note to subsection 110-45(4) indicates that it is intended to apply to the capital works deductions in Division 43 of the ITAA 1997.

Therefore, the cost base of the property in this case should be reduced by the $20,000 allowable as deductions under Division 43 of the ITAA 1997. This means the property's cost base is $1,230,000 worked out as follows:


(1,000,000 + 250,000) - 20,000


The policy underpinning the cost base reduction rules was discussed in the Explanatory Memorandum to the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No.2) 1998 which introduced section 160ZJA, the equivalent provision in the Income Tax Assessment Act 1936 (ITAA 1936) to section «110-45» of the ITAA 1997:


6.3 In principle, an item of expenditure should either be deductible for income tax purposes or included in the cost base of an underlying asset for CGT purposes, but not both.


6.4 The amendments are designed to prevent taxpayers from including an amount of expenditure in the cost base or indexed cost base of an asset to the extent that they would be able to claim a deduction for that expenditure.


Therefore, the context within which the CGT cost base rules were developed can clearly be distinguished from the context of the rules for the calculation of profits under subsection 82(2) of the ITAA 1936 considered in MLC Limited & Anor v. DFC of T [2002] FCA 1491; 2002 ATC 5105; (2002) 51 ATR 283.

Note: Section «110-45» of the ITAA 1997 also operates to prevent expenditure forming part of the cost base of land or a building acquired before 7.30pm (ACT legal time) on 13 May 1997 if the expenditure was incurred by the taxpayer after 30 June 1999 and forms part of the fourth element of cost base of the property: subsection 110-45(1A) of the ITAA 1997.

Date of decision: 10 March 2004

Year of income: year ended 30 June 2004



Legislative References:
Income Tax Assessment Act 1936
subsection 82(2)
Division 10D
section 160ZJA

Income Tax Assessment Act 1997
Division 43
section 110-25
section «110-45
subsection 110-45(1A)
subsection 110-45(1B)
subsection 110-45(2)
subsection 110-45(4)

Case References:
MLC Ltd v. Deputy Commissioner of Taxation
[2002] FCA 1491
2002 ATC 5105

Other References
Explanatory Memorandum to Taxation Laws Amendment Bill (No 2) 1998

Keywords
Building depreciation
Capital gains tax
CGT assets
CGT cost base

Date of publication: 14 May 2004

ISSN: 1445-2782
 
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