Landlords in WA about to be done over - Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill 2011

If this is the way that landlords have been giving feedback on amendments to the department, then don't be surprised if more considered and reasonable feedback on behalf of tenants is adopted over pro-landlord reforms.

We've already been there. Burbs has done exactly this in the consultation process and at the beginning of this thread as well as in the middle of it. Belbo even had a go at it in this thread. As was predicted (and predictable) right at the start nothing came of it and pretty much all the amendments went the tenant's way. I suggest there is nothing more to add and you need to go back and read the posts at the start of the thread.

As for this particular LL, I highly doubt I'll ever invest in this sector again because of this legislation (in its totality - not just the amendments) so the discussion is moot. I've just been venting because I probably wouldn't mind the asset class if it wasn't for this carry on.

And if you want to know how I think it should be check the legislation that regulates tenancies for industrial properties - works for me!
 
A lot of these issues sound like they would occur under self management.

There was something on Today Tonight last night with a Perth couple having their rental trashed by someone they were helping out. They self managed.

If you have a PM worth their salt, the quarterly inspections will ensure that any deviation from a neat and tidy property can be nipped in the bud.

I have had this happen once or twice, but once tenants (also vetted by the PM) have been breached, they pulled their head in.

The common theme I keep seeing on TV and reading in the press and here is that self management is a recipe for disaster in trying to increase cash flow by 10%.

All that aside, any changes to the RTA will just be passed onto the tenant to cover any costs incurred by me. The sooner LLs understand that tenants will be paying and not them the better.

Just think of it as a carbon tax for tenants for their benefit but no kick-back from government to cushion the hurt.
 
We've already been there. Burbs has done exactly this in the consultation process and at the beginning of this thread as well as in the middle of it. Belbo even had a go at it in this thread. As was predicted (and predictable) right at the start nothing came of it and pretty much all the amendments went the tenant's way. I suggest there is nothing more to add and you need to go back and read the posts at the start of the thread.

As for this particular LL, I highly doubt I'll ever invest in this sector again because of this legislation (in its totality - not just the amendments) so the discussion is moot. I've just been venting because I probably wouldn't mind the asset class if it wasn't for this carry on.

The problem with the consultation process is that he who complains the loudest gets the attention from the politicians.

I think both sides are guilty of venting a bit in this thread :eek:
 
As for this particular LL, I highly doubt I'll ever invest in this sector again because of this legislation (in its totality - not just the amendments) so the discussion is moot. I've just been venting because I probably wouldn't mind the asset class if it wasn't for this carry on.

same - I am slowly getting rid of them all. Just way too much grief for the return (if there is a return, which their hasn't been for some years now).
 
As a professional, a renter and a landlord, this has been my experience as well. Especially the part where landlords seem to take it as a personal insult when something they think should be paid for, isn't. For example, defining exactly what is fair wear and tear is often a grey area, but if you ask the landlord, its usually absolutely black and white in their favour.

i can only say you have been lucky. I've never had the copper pipes stripped out thankfully, but I have copped some decent battle scars.
 
A lot of these issues sound like they would occur under self management.

There was something on Today Tonight last night with a Perth couple having their rental trashed by someone they were helping out. They self managed.

If you have a PM worth their salt, the quarterly inspections will ensure that any deviation from a neat and tidy property can be nipped in the bud.

I have had this happen once or twice, but once tenants (also vetted by the PM) have been breached, they pulled their head in.

The common theme I keep seeing on TV and reading in the press and here is that self management is a recipe for disaster in trying to increase cash flow by 10%.

All that aside, any changes to the RTA will just be passed onto the tenant to cover any costs incurred by me. The sooner LLs understand that tenants will be paying and not them the better.

Just think of it as a carbon tax for tenants for their benefit but no kick-back from government to cushion the hurt.

+1 to this.

As I previously said, I'd find it surprising if these disastrous tenant stories couldn't have been prevented or mitigated by proper use of the landlord's rights under the Act.

For all that landlords like to learn about investment strategies and tax tips, I don't think I've met any landlord who has said that they wanted to learn more about residential tenancy laws to improve their return on investment.

But how does a person expect to be taken seriously by the department of commerce when suggesting changes to the system, if that person does't even properly know or understand the current system.

PS. One day I will probably start up my own practice advising landlords and property managers on residential tenancy law, hopefully charging something reasonable like $20 to $50 etc. Believe it or not, I'd like to be able to help you guys out. Which also has been my goal is posting in the first place.
 
We've already been there. Burbs has done exactly this in the consultation process and at the beginning of this thread as well as in the middle of it. Belbo even had a go at it in this thread. As was predicted (and predictable) right at the start nothing came of it and pretty much all the amendments went the tenant's way. I suggest there is nothing more to add and you need to go back and read the posts at the start of the thread.

btw, they are still taking submissions on the regulations.
 
I'd find it surprising if these disastrous tenant stories couldn't have been prevented or mitigated by proper use of the landlord's rights under the Act.

This is a joke right ?? Residential Tenants don't read the rule book. They just smash the place up and move on. Reading sub-sections of the RTA which state penalties for Landlords not doing something do not prevent or mitigate the Tenant smashing the property up at 2am.


For all that landlords like to learn about investment strategies and tax tips, I don't think I've met any landlord who has said that they wanted to learn more about residential tenancy laws to improve their return on investment.


You definitely need to get out more and meet some real people.....Landlord's with 30 or 40 years experience who run substantial operations, rather than wax lyrical at the front of some lecture hall to pimply 19 yo.'s who own no property. There is a slight difference.


Once you've read the RTA, and it's pretty basic stuff, it doesn't take an intelligent Landlord long to realise you want nothing to do with it. Landlord's are on a hiding to nowhere. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't been thru the frustration of having grots wreck their property and get away with it scot-free.


We're talking real money here, hard fought for and scarce on the ground.....holidays sacrificed and kids going without some luxuries to afford the payments. There is no consolation whatsoever in saying the loss and damage is tax deductable and relatively minor.


What I noticed with residential real estate is, the two major reasons for buying in the first place, capital growth and rental income, are so far down the priority list in both the Tenants and the RTA's priorities, they don't even rate a mention. Children's safety, mother's comfort levels, health regulations, lifestyle aspects humanity concerns.....YUK....I wouldn't touch it with your 10' pole, let alone mine.


We made the decision to jump away from any assets that fell under that dreadful RTA legislation about 9 years ago.....and it's been the best move we've ever made.


If you are arguing Landlord's should read the RTA and henceforth keep beating their head against that brick wall in some feeble attempt to squeeze another 20% out of yields, increasing them from say 2.2% gross up to 2.6% gross, then sir, we shall have to disagree.


There is a far better way to invest in property. Having to deal with clowns like you is not it.
 
Thanks for the insights thatbum. It's quite refreshing to have an impartial view for a change.

I'm certainly no expert but am a landlord and a tenant. With about 10 years experience as a landlord I have never had an issue with a tenant that could be classified as anything but minor.

I certainly don't put that down to luck, the way you select your tenants, present your property and maintain the relationship with your tenant all reflect on how that tenancy will evolve. If you drop the ball on any of those things, any issues are largely your own fault.

We certainly haven't seen any repercussions from the new tenancy legislation, and I suspect there won't be. Whenever you pit landlords against tenants on this forum you get a storm in a teacup. Similarly for labour v liberal and anything to do with religion. There's not normally alot of sound reason applied.
 
+1 to this.

As I previously said, I'd find it surprising if these disastrous tenant stories couldn't have been prevented or mitigated by proper use of the landlord's rights under the Act.

Lets start simple then since I would love to avid it next time.
What magic wand do I have to prevent a non paying tenant claiming hardship and getting up to another 30 days in the property from the judge. They have not paid any rent since x date, and have had previously a number of breach notices previously paid at the last minute so a Form 1B has been used. There is a additional $500 in unpaid water bills that the water corp has forwarded to me due to non payment by tenant.

While its not pertinent to the proceedings the above tenants passed a TICA check and had a good reference but during cleanup after eviction evidence that they had got into injected drugs was found.

Unlike others I don't think a higher bond is practical for residential. I do strongly feel landlords need additional assistance to retrieve unpaid court ordered payments.
 
Lets start simple then since I would love to avid it next time.
What magic wand do I have to prevent a non paying tenant claiming hardship and getting up to another 30 days in the property from the judge. They have not paid any rent since x date, and have had previously a number of breach notices previously paid at the last minute so a Form 1B has been used. There is a additional $500 in unpaid water bills that the water corp has forwarded to me due to non payment by tenant.

While its not pertinent to the proceedings the above tenants passed a TICA check and had a good reference but during cleanup after eviction evidence that they had got into injected drugs was found.

Unlike others I don't think a higher bond is practical for residential. I do strongly feel landlords need additional assistance to retrieve unpaid court ordered payments.

The "magic wand" is simply the actual section that governs termination, section 71:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/wa/consol_act/rta1987207/s71.html

Subsection 3a is the power that lets a court suspend termination orders for up to 30 days (so its a max of 37 days from the order).

The test is the relative hardship to both tenant AND landlord, so for the landlord, it will mostly be the likelihood of continued non-payment of rent, particularly if it exceeds the bond amount.

I have literally never seen orders suspended for more then 10 days in a situation of rent arrears, so I don't know what happened in your situation. In fact, even where I am making arguments for the tenant, its usually only a couple of days, or maybe a week max.

I imagine if you were properly advised and prepared, you could limit it to a 48 hour termination or even 24 hours. Sounds like you had plenty of arguments and evidence in favour for no suspension.

Yeah, your welcome.
 
Ah, I see. What you are saying, Tbum, is that there is nothing wrong with RTAs and associated tribunal procedures in general as they now stand (i.e. with State by State variances). The problem - for both landlords and tenants - is not being familiar enough with how to use them properly. Right?

Okay then. I have no doubt a good case could made that many LLs do not use the RTA and tribunal to their full advantage in every instance. And this might alleviate the personal stress and financial strains for many LLs to an extent in a lot of situations. Your offer to assist LLs understand their legal and tactical options is very generous and should be appreciated here.

However, this argument that RTAs in practice are under-appreciated still does not address the core problem that every LL faces: Under RTAs the LL can still always lose massively - well beyond what LL insurance will cover - at no loss to the tenant. Moreover, as the LL's losses mount, the tenant's right to ongoing tenancy is irrespectively, institutionally protected.

In other words, RTAs effectively seize value (the right to terminate occupancy at will and the right to decide bond levels at will) from landlords and confer the benefits of this upon tenants for no return to LLs. This is the structural unfairness of RTAs that can only be remedied by substantially increasing statutory bond levels, in my opinion. (No, I agree tenants qua human beings can't be locked out by LLs at their will.)

(NB: Your suggestion that rents would likely fall in response to higher bonds is 'curious', by the way. How would bigger bonds create more houses? Bizarre!)
 
Ah, I see. What you are saying, Tbum, is that there is nothing wrong with RTAs and associated tribunal procedures in general as they now stand (i.e. with State by State variances). The problem - for both landlords and tenants - is not being familiar enough with how to use them properly. Right?

Okay then. I have no doubt a good case could made that many LLs do not use the RTA and tribunal to their full advantage in every instance. And this might alleviate the personal stress and financial strains for many LLs to an extent in a lot of situations. Your offer to assist LLs understand their legal and tactical options is very generous and should be appreciated here.

However, this argument that RTAs in practice are under-appreciated still does not address the core problem that every LL faces: Under RTAs the LL can still always lose massively - well beyond what LL insurance will cover - at no loss to the tenant. Moreover, as the LL's losses mount, the tenant's right to ongoing tenancy is irrespectively, institutionally protected.

In other words, RTAs effectively seize value (the right to terminate occupancy at will and the right to decide bond levels at will) from landlords and confer the benefits of this upon tenants for no return to LLs. This is the structural unfairness of RTAs that can only be remedied by substantially increasing statutory bond levels, in my opinion. (No, I agree tenants qua human beings can't be locked out by LLs at their will.)

(NB: Your suggestion that rents would likely fall in response to higher bonds is 'curious', by the way. How would bigger bonds create more houses? Bizarre!)

I completely agree that there is a institutional protection of a tenant's right to an ongoing tenancy, even where they have been blatantly breached the agreement by damaging the property or not paying rent. At the end of a day, a tenant can only be evicted by court order, even in the most ridiculous one side cases such as staying past a fixed term.

However, I disagree that a landlord "can lose massively" if they are properly advised, prepared and knowledgeable in the law when going into court or tribunal. I've given one example above, and I'm prepared to give more.

So I suppose following from my opinion there, its my opinion that this current legal situation is not unfair. It's no coincidence that a 4 week bond is more weeks than a landlord's first opportunity to get an eviction order.

Your average landlord that goes into court unprepared and with just general frustrated venting would not get any sympathy before a Magistrate. I've seen it time and time again from PMs and LLs. I'm not surprised that many landlords get unfavourable orders if that is the usual approach.

The reason I am successful in court is not because I'm a lawyer or have magical law powers. Its simply because I know the law, and focus on relevant facts and arguments in line with the law. This is something that any landlord can do as well.

Eg, for Doovalacky's case:

Relevant:
- x date since rent was last paid
- bond amount
- water bill also owing
- ongoing non-payment of rent
- tenant's circumstances on the issue of likelihood of further non-payment

Not relevant:
- Any other breaches of the tenant in the past
- Whether or not the tenant uses drugs
- Trying to attack the tenant's hardship arguments (its their hardship, how would a LL know?)

PS. A big increase to bonds means higher barrier to entry. So there's less demand for rentals. Prices are set by supply AND demand so changes to both can influence the market rate.
 
I think both sides have issues.

And most of those issues are down to poor PM.

I have had both good and bad PMs as both a tenant and a landlord. A good PM deals with things efficiently and quickly. A bad PM creates a bad situation for both parties.

You have a PM that doesn't pass on repair requests or doesn't go after rent that has fallen behind and it just further fuels the issues between the two parties.

In my own situation I have no issues with the landlord themselves. They didn't do anything wrong. They repaired things quickly under the old PM. New PM came on board and things were just ignored. Keys were left and the LL was told we had changed the locks (we hadn't - they had just lost the keys. I had to get a new set cut), incorrect legal advice was given to the landlord, no notice was given to us about certain things etc etc. It just creates a bad situation all round.

The LL was furious when we went to the tribunal. Firstly it was us. By the end it was at the PM. Especially when it turned out that they were telling the LL that they were doing inspections when we had our first one 22 months into the tenancy...

A good PM simply makes the world of difference.
 
However, I disagree that a landlord "can lose massively" if they are properly advised, prepared and knowledgeable in the law when going into court or tribunal.
....
PS. A big increase to bonds means higher barrier to entry. So there's less demand for rentals. Prices are set by supply AND demand so changes to both can influence the market rate.

How about malicious damage, and the stresses both financial and emotional for LLs it incurs?

And how on earth do you think demand for rentals falls from today's levels: emi-freakin'-gration?
 
How about malicious damage, and the stresses both financial and emotional for LLs it incurs?

And how on earth do you think demand for rentals falls from today's levels: emi-freakin'-gration?

Out of interest, what kind of malicious damage have you experienced?

I've gone through 12 tenants and only had one instance of any damage (not including a scratch in the floor etc) and that was a couple with an autistic kid who didn't want to move and kicked holes in the wall. That was $200 in damage more than the bond.

I'm not doubting, I jsut have had a good run of luck so I figure I'm in for a nasty shock at some stage.
 
And most of those issues are down to poor PM.

A good PM simply makes the world of difference.

No argument there, and Tbum made that same argument a number of posts ago.

It's a sad fact but true: PMs on the whole are paid peanuts, so for the most part LLs get monkeys looking after their properties. And being a PM can be a seriously stressful job too. I don't envy them one little bit. Staff turnover in real estate agencies is amongst the highest of any industry in Aust, as I recall.
 
No argument there, and Tbum made that same argument a number of posts ago.

It's a sad fact but true: PMs on the whole are paid peanuts, so for the most part LLs get monkeys looking after their properties. And being a PM can be a seriously stressful job too. I don't envy them one little bit. Staff turnover in real estate agencies is amongst the highest of any industry in Aust, as I recall.

Yep.

I had a brilliant PM when I rented at Avoca Beach. The house started to slide down the hill when a peir gave way, but both the LL and PM were great about it. Makes the world of difference.

I don't know how to improve the situation - the money is negligible and it seems that most (not all) seem to use it as a stepping stone to sales. Which means you get turnover, no knowledge of background or anything like that.
 
Out of interest, what kind of malicious damage have you experienced?

I've gone through 12 tenants and only had one instance of any damage (not including a scratch in the floor etc) and that was a couple with an autistic kid who didn't want to move and kicked holes in the wall. That was $200 in damage more than the bond.

I'm not doubting, I jsut have had a good run of luck so I figure I'm in for a nasty shock at some stage.

Never had any mal-dam myself, touch wood. I'm just getting armed up for the eventuality. Hoping for the best but preparing for the worst, you know?
 
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