Man Hours for Certain Jobs?
- Thread starter JWR
- Start date
not sure abt NSW.
besides why would you want to do hourly rates for a project this size.
hourly rates are like to do a deck on a weekend.
anything else would be better managed by a quote otherwise you gonna spent time monitoring them, watching their smokos, breakfast. A lot of BS with these trades trust me.
imagine if you went hourly with a plumber - wait till you see the bill.
If your doing this as OB you better get some good Public Liability Insurance, last thing you want is for someone to injure themselves on your site and then take you to the cleaners...
You will also need home warranty insurance to protect yourself and future purchasers from defective workmanship.
You will also need home warranty insurance to protect yourself and future purchasers from defective workmanship.
He won't need HOW unless the property is being sold. HOW is easy to get for OB's and is quite cheap.
Disagree with this from personal experience.
My current plumber working at $66/hr was about 1k cheaper than my previous plumber who quoted for an almost identical house. The guy who quoted was reputedly the most reasonabley priced plumber in the area. I have a 30 day account set up for plumbing supplies so can access plumbers' trade prices.
I was under the impressions that owner-builder licenses are for owner-occupiers, not for people who want to work on their investment properties. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Google just found this from the NSW Fair Trading web site:
http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/T...and_renovating/Becoming_an_owner_builder.html
NOTE also this warning: you might want to re-consider using lowest-rate tradies.
To be honest I am not sure about insurance/warranties etc... but I will find out everything before I start....
I will have to learn as I go on how to structure all the various labour components....
To lock up I will more than likely get a fixed price quote - and then on the internals I am thinking of outsourcing different tradies.
With the pros like electricitans/plumbers/builders etc... more than likely I will have to give into their demands. Everyone else though I am sure can work with the unskilled/semi skilled labourers hired - for painting, tiling, gyprocking etc...
Don't plan to sell because its cash positive by $300/w if I do it for 100k.
Appreciate your support fernfurn! Will update as I go along as I love to gloat
I really appreciate all the support though as everyone can tell I desperately need it
I will have to learn as I go on how to structure all the various labour components....
To lock up I will more than likely get a fixed price quote - and then on the internals I am thinking of outsourcing different tradies.
With the pros like electricitans/plumbers/builders etc... more than likely I will have to give into their demands. Everyone else though I am sure can work with the unskilled/semi skilled labourers hired - for painting, tiling, gyprocking etc...
Don't plan to sell because its cash positive by $300/w if I do it for 100k.
Appreciate your support fernfurn! Will update as I go along as I love to gloat
I really appreciate all the support though as everyone can tell I desperately need it
One thing I've noticed about tradesmen is that they are completely self-reliant.
When they roll up on-site, they have absolutely everything they need in terms of equipment to complete the job. It gets pretty sticky pretty quickly when tradies roll up on-site and start having to beg / borrow / steal off others to get their job done.
Asking a tradesman to roll up and don't worry about bringing stuff with him, you'll supply it, but only if they charge you half rates for their time......it just isn't going to happen.
They aren't going to empty their ute, go around to your job, get half pay, then go back and load up their ute again and go work for someone else on full pay rates.
The two biggest reasons tradies choose that lifestyle and become tradies in the first place are independence and money.
Your suggested concept strips them all of those two biggest reasons.....and will be the root cause of why your concept will fail.
BTW - your analogy to being like Warren Buffett by getting things on the cheap is way off the mark. That was his mentor's Ben Graham's approach, and it ultimately failed.
Warren Buffett took a markedly different approach in that he purchased companies that exhibited a durable competitive advantage, and was quite prepared to pay handsomely to buy those types of companies.
In short, fundamentally, the theory behind your thinking is woefully flawed.
When they roll up on-site, they have absolutely everything they need in terms of equipment to complete the job. It gets pretty sticky pretty quickly when tradies roll up on-site and start having to beg / borrow / steal off others to get their job done.
Asking a tradesman to roll up and don't worry about bringing stuff with him, you'll supply it, but only if they charge you half rates for their time......it just isn't going to happen.
They aren't going to empty their ute, go around to your job, get half pay, then go back and load up their ute again and go work for someone else on full pay rates.
The two biggest reasons tradies choose that lifestyle and become tradies in the first place are independence and money.
Your suggested concept strips them all of those two biggest reasons.....and will be the root cause of why your concept will fail.
BTW - your analogy to being like Warren Buffett by getting things on the cheap is way off the mark. That was his mentor's Ben Graham's approach, and it ultimately failed.
Warren Buffett took a markedly different approach in that he purchased companies that exhibited a durable competitive advantage, and was quite prepared to pay handsomely to buy those types of companies.
In short, fundamentally, the theory behind your thinking is woefully flawed.
Hi Dazz,
Whilst I admire and respect your thoughts, I would have to disagree about your WB analysis. Whilst he looks for great businesses he also only ever buys them at steep discounts to true value (30,40,50%+ discounts). That way there is a margin of safety in case estimated profits aren't realised.
Completely agree with your Ben Graham analysis of not buying cigarette butts though (what looks cheap but there is a reason for it.)
I am not trying to take the 'cheap' way out - but rather looking to do a quality job for the cheapest price possible.
I've bought the land at a 60% discount to UCV - so have effectively bought with a 'margin of safety'.
I will try to build 40%+ below what a builder will charge - thus having a 'margin of safety'.
If costs blow out I don't make as much money - but still will make money.
With the tradesman - as others have suggested - it will be very difficult to find what I want - but I am confident of finding the right ones to suit my needs. If I can't - well I haven't lost anything but time for having a go.
Will be an interesting journey no doubt - but one I am ready to embrace!
Whilst I admire and respect your thoughts, I would have to disagree about your WB analysis. Whilst he looks for great businesses he also only ever buys them at steep discounts to true value (30,40,50%+ discounts). That way there is a margin of safety in case estimated profits aren't realised.
Completely agree with your Ben Graham analysis of not buying cigarette butts though (what looks cheap but there is a reason for it.)
I am not trying to take the 'cheap' way out - but rather looking to do a quality job for the cheapest price possible.
I've bought the land at a 60% discount to UCV - so have effectively bought with a 'margin of safety'.
I will try to build 40%+ below what a builder will charge - thus having a 'margin of safety'.
If costs blow out I don't make as much money - but still will make money.
With the tradesman - as others have suggested - it will be very difficult to find what I want - but I am confident of finding the right ones to suit my needs. If I can't - well I haven't lost anything but time for having a go.
Will be an interesting journey no doubt - but one I am ready to embrace!
JWR,
Nothing wrong with trying to avoid unecessary cost but you need to be carefull not to take it too far.
No matter who you are dealing with, in whatever industry, there's always a point where you go too far and everyone starts working against what you're trying to acheive.
I think you're going to come to that point very quickly.
RC
Nothing wrong with trying to avoid unecessary cost but you need to be carefull not to take it too far.
No matter who you are dealing with, in whatever industry, there's always a point where you go too far and everyone starts working against what you're trying to acheive.
I think you're going to come to that point very quickly.
RC
For the record, my first renovation, I budgeted about $4k for a few jobs, with a 2 week schedule,
Got some quotes, thought the cheapest one was ridiculous at like $7k,
so I decided to go down the path of per hour with me providing all the materials
about 200 once in a lifetime/bad luck occurances later, it took double the amount of time, and about $6k, plus got a paint job done very quickly and cheaply on top of that, so I came out on top of had I used the quote
would I do per hour again? probably not
the only good thing, is that I got a shed full of tools that I bought that I can use for next time
P.S I Cant stand any of the quotes by those successful people, they are successful because they are good at what they do and know the ins and outs of everything, not because they quote eg. bill gates was known to like monopoly as a kid where he would buy all the hotels, build houses, wait for people to land on it and make big $$$. Im sure everybody who plays monopoly tries to do that, and not every body is a bill gates
Got some quotes, thought the cheapest one was ridiculous at like $7k,
so I decided to go down the path of per hour with me providing all the materials
about 200 once in a lifetime/bad luck occurances later, it took double the amount of time, and about $6k, plus got a paint job done very quickly and cheaply on top of that, so I came out on top of had I used the quote
would I do per hour again? probably not
the only good thing, is that I got a shed full of tools that I bought that I can use for next time
P.S I Cant stand any of the quotes by those successful people, they are successful because they are good at what they do and know the ins and outs of everything, not because they quote eg. bill gates was known to like monopoly as a kid where he would buy all the hotels, build houses, wait for people to land on it and make big $$$. Im sure everybody who plays monopoly tries to do that, and not every body is a bill gates
Somewhat relevant to this discussion. I stumbled across this while surfing the 'net at work (Don't tell Alex P. Keaton)
http://www.servicecentral.com.au/re...ce-guide-how-much-do-tradespeople-charge/1825
I don't know how accurate it really is, but I'd say a good starting point.
http://www.servicecentral.com.au/re...ce-guide-how-much-do-tradespeople-charge/1825
I don't know how accurate it really is, but I'd say a good starting point.
I've had and currently got a foot in both camps.
As a tradie, I would never, ever work for an hourly rate. I supply the tools, disposables, finishes, pay taxes, employ subbies - and I have to do that all within my quote. I always walk away when potential clients start talking about hourly rates and what they think I can work for. (not that it happens often)
On the other hand, for any reno I do personally, I always prefer to pay tradies/mates an hourly rate. And I supply all materials. They can come and go as they like and as long as they do they job well and in good time I have no dramas. Once you start getting quotes you are starting to create two opposing dichotomies. Those who quote what the job is worth and what they need to make to be profitable (generally quoting themselves out of the job), and those who quote at the lowest price they can afford (creating shortcuts and potential quality issues)
Im sure that made it no clearer.
As a tradie, I would never, ever work for an hourly rate. I supply the tools, disposables, finishes, pay taxes, employ subbies - and I have to do that all within my quote. I always walk away when potential clients start talking about hourly rates and what they think I can work for. (not that it happens often)
On the other hand, for any reno I do personally, I always prefer to pay tradies/mates an hourly rate. And I supply all materials. They can come and go as they like and as long as they do they job well and in good time I have no dramas. Once you start getting quotes you are starting to create two opposing dichotomies. Those who quote what the job is worth and what they need to make to be profitable (generally quoting themselves out of the job), and those who quote at the lowest price they can afford (creating shortcuts and potential quality issues)
Im sure that made it no clearer.
