Michael Croft's Reno Magic

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From: David Jeffries


I've been to Michael's Reno Magic, and got great value out of it.

When I went, there was a manual promised at $99. Again, good value- but, for me, at the top end of my affordability.

Two months later, the manual is apparently now almost available. But at $495.

1. For me, way over the top.

2. For the people who are selling it- will they earn more money by charging more money? I've bought Dale's manual at $99, and found great value. The people I associate with who are interested in renos (few as they are) would have been interested in buying the manual at $99. But $495 is too much,

I would suggest to the people who produce this manual that they would make more money out of selling a manual at a price that 500 people would buy (say $99), rather than a price 20 ($495) people would buy.
 
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Reply: 1
From: Jye Walker


Hi David,

Havent seen Michaels manual myself so cant comment on it specifically BUT...

To harp on a constant theme throughout the forum ... You get what you pay for (sorry about the cliche). I guess the only way to OBJECTIVELY assess an investment (your purchase of the manual) is to decide whether it will save you money. For example, if you are planning on spending 15k on a renovation, do you think that using Michaels manual will allow you to get the cost under 14.5k. (15k - $500 for the manual) From what I have seen here, and from previous clients (attendees?) of Michaels, the amount they spent was proportionally less than what they saved on the renovation. In real terms, as the manual is tax deductible, what you essentially pay around $280 for may save you 10k to 20k off your renovation.

These are just my humble opinions, I have never been to one on Michaels seminars. I guess the only way for you to approach it is to assess you individual position, and whether you can make more out of it than what the manual costs you.

Regards,

Jye.
 
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Reply: 1.1
From: Tibor Bode


Hi David,

I have also attended Michael's seminar and bought the manual for $99 (been promised to get it next week) and I hope it will be real value (until I have not sen it I can not comment, but based on the seminar it should be excellent). I tend to agree with you, that
when companies provide something at a more affordable price, more people will buy their goods and services. This is where the freestyler organised seminars and also Steve Navra's seminar seems to me offering real value for money, compare to the other considerable more expensive ones. In this regard it is worth to read the latest Jenman
newsletter. I definitely willing to recommend
to people any proposal which offers value for money, but when companies start to be primarily profit centered (instead of thinking how to offer more for less) it is definitely a turn off. You might buy a product for once, but they lost your business for the longer term. It is interesting to see how Steve Navra can afford to run a 2 days seminar for $250 per person and offering some free time as well. If his seminar in June will be interest to me, I am definitely will be interested to become an ongoing client, apart from freely willing to advertise his services!. When I purchase goods or services I am primarily concerned that it has to be a value for me, not that I can deduct it from the tax, maybe able to save / make money using the methods
recommended. Some people paying several thousands for HK's seminar might got value out of it, but I feel the vast majority (including myself just at that time it was considerably cheaper) got very little tangible value which can be used. Hence, they just lost my business for good. Anyway, this is only my opinion as an active consumer of investment products.

Tibor
 
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Reply: 1.1.1
From: Alan Hill


Tibor,

I'd have to agree.

In so many property/investment dealings you can really get a sore neck with constantly watching your back from various predators! What's their angle.... you can't take anything for face value......you have to double check every detail! Rarely do I believe it is a total 'win-win' situation. But there are the occasional exceptions....

In the case of Steve, none of my dealings have ever directly cost me a cent and I have had very good value. In return Steve and his associates have worked on quite fair commisions and probably on an 'hourly' basis have done quite well. To me, that sort of outcome is a great example of a 'win-win' situation. I'm very happy with the outcome and glad he and his associates have been suitably compensated.

To me, Dale's Manual at $99 is another good example of a 'win-win'. The Manual was probably worth the purchase cost alone but then it also included a couple of hours of free Consultation time(probably worth about $400). The customer gets some good 'free' information and I'm sure along the way Dale will get extra Clients. 'Win-win' to me again.

:)
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1
From: Nigel W


I'll just stick my 2.2 cents worth in here too...

I've done a couple of renovations - and learned heaps in the process. I also went to Michael's seminar and learned a good amount of practical stuff in a very short space of time from him. With Michael's level of experience and expertise in renovation and valuation, just his side comments and "by the way" remarks are often worth a great deal!

In his defense, Michael stated at the Reno magic seminar that I attended that "if you've done some successful renovations then you probably shouldn't buy this manual"!

I think that's a good indication of the integrity of this guy. Sure he and Freestylers are trying to make a buck out of his manual (and good on them) but he's not claiming there's some super secret knowledge that will make you a fortune.

Rather if you don't know much about renovations, the manual could teach you a lot. If you know a reasonable amount about renovation, you could pick up a few good moneymaking tips and have a bit of revision! And if you've been renovating for 40 years and making heaps of money from it then I'm sure Michael would be first in line to talk to you! ;^)

Regarding Dale's manual. I spent 20 minutes reading it and had put about 20 post-it notes on things to remember to claim as allowable deductions - so you can probably guess I think it was worth a paltry $99! Not to mention the certificate for a further consult with him - talk about value for money!

According to Nigel's rule of seminar and information evaluation - you should think very seriously about spending more than 1-2% of your net worth on educational material. So these manuals should fit well under that threshold for just about everyone!

N.
 
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Reply: 1.1.1.1.1
From: Mark Laszczuk


I too believe in paying what something is worth, but what's the deal here, Freestylers? A 500% mark up? There definitely needs to be an excellent explanation for this.

Mark
'no hat, some cattle'
 
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Reply: 2
From: David Jeffries


There's some good responses here. But one issue which has not yet been responded to is the promise of the manual, at Michael's seminars, for $99. To be ready "next week". Then. Many weeks later, the manual produced- at a cost 5 times the price promised in the seminar.

If the price was going to be $495, then why was it advertised at $99?

Michael appeared to be a person of great integrity- willing to share his knowledge because he loved the subject so much. A colleague went to the seminar and was very enthusiastic. She could not see the "catch"- a $99 manual was really affordable.

Now she can see what the bait was.

I would also repeat that, I suspect that the economics of Michael/Freestylers might be bad. They may well be able to sell, say 500 copies at $99, but 50 at $495. The people who might buy at $495 are people who are already renovating, and who can justify the expense.

I could justify at $99, but not at $495.
 
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Reply: 2.1
From: Mike .


Good point David. I say keep the price down on seminars and manuals and make it up with mentoring/consultation fees for people who are actually "doing it".

- Mike
 
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Michael Croft's Reno Magic(longish post..)

Reply: 2.1.1
From: Alan Hill


I was talking to a fellow Forum Member this morning about this thread and after coming back and reading it again(along with a couple of related threads), there was a couple of points I wanted to make.

1. With regards to the price of Michael's Manual, I really don't think this is particularly a big issue.

The book that really started me in property investment was Jan's original Building Wealth Book. It cost me $24.95 and the Capital Growth on my resultant Investment Properties(and I'm FAR from a big player) now runs into hundreds of thousands of dollars. Now since that one book was my primary original motivation, was it worth $24.95 to me, or thousands of dollars?

I guess to me it was worth thousands of dollars. Would I have paid thousands at the time? No.

My point is that pricing of this type of product is extremely subjective and at the end of the day, as with property, shares or book prices, the market will set the going price.

Also, keep in mind that neither Michael or Freestylers are professional publishers with teams of marketing research people looking at book valuations etc. They have other lives/interests and I presume everyone involved is fairly new at this type of thing and are doing their best.

Is the manual price too high or too low? I'm sure both groups would be the first to welcome your feedback to assist them with future pricing, but in the interim, nobody is forcing people to buy them or leave them.

With regards to pricing, there may have been some confusion but I believe this type of discussion is probably helpful to all parties in providing useful feedback.

2. The second point though is MUCH more important.

During the conversation this morning, my friend was angered by the fact that they felt Michael's credibility may have been even slightly tarnished by some of the comments that have been made. As someone who has an enormous amount of respect for Michael, if such an impression has been made, I would like to add my personal support for Michael in this area.

Michael Croft is extremely good at what he does and his contributions to this Forum are almost legendary. In my lifetime of investing, if I can achieve half of what Michael has, I will be well pleased.

At his seminar, Michael was far from trying to hardsell a Manual(but even if he was, good luck to him!). NB. His 'book promotion' part of the evening comprised of a shrug of the shoulders and a "probably don't bother buying it if you've already done a bit of renovating". As a Book Release Public Relations person, Michael probably makes a great Investor/Renovator! ;)

The most obvious thing to me that came out of Michael's Seminar(besides some great tips and the fact that he's obviously a nice bloke), was his absolute passion for what he does and how much he thoroughly enjoys sharing that with others.

Michael Croft's credibility prior to his Seminars/Manual was incredibly high.
Michael Croft's credibility after his Seminars/Manual is equally as high if not higher.
End of story.

Thanks for continuing to share your wealth of knowledge on this Forum Michael. Much appreciated.


:)
 
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Michael Croft's Reno Magic(longish post..)

Reply: 2.1.1.1
From: Geoff Whitfield


I agree with you about the respect for Michael. I too respect his knowledge, and his willingness to share it, enormously. I learnt heaps from his talk- I only regret that, as I was at the first talk, I have missed out on the extras which have been added since.

But I'm with David on the price.

Having just spent $10K on a minor reno, and then getting a valuation for the same price I bought the property, the belt has to be tightened.

And I do remember $99 having been mentioned by the Freestylers people.
 
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Michael Croft's Reno Magic(longish post..)

Reply: 2.1.1.2
From: David Jeffries


"my friend was angered by the fact that they felt Michael's credibility may have been even slightly tarnished "

And I am angered by the fact that ANYBODY read this into my post. I did NOT imply at all that Michael's credibility was at issue. YOU raised that as an issue, I did not.

BUT (to flog a dead horse) the manual was mentioned by the promoters (at the first Canberra presentation) at $99. It was supposed to be ready in less than two weeks. It took some months.

The manual was mentioned at $99, but (IF) they are talking now $495, that is not an issue of credibility- that is an issue of fact. The price has changed. Full stop.

And I cannot afford, or justify, the new price.

$99 was at my upper limit to begin with. I have several colleagues who, at that price, were prepared to support Michael at that price, to buy copies. But none are prepared at the new price.
 
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Michael Croft's Reno Magic(longish post..)

Reply: 2.1.1.2.1
From: Alan Hill


That's fine Dave. My comments were not meant to be aimed directly at you but rather to give my personal comment on the odd mutterings I had heard related to this post and some others.

It would appear we are in total agreement.

The issue of price for the manual is something that feedback would be useful and Michael Croft remains an extremely credible individual.

:)
 
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Reply: 3
From: Terry Avery


Hey guys! A storm in a teacup or a case of selective hearing?

I attended the Melbourne presentation by Michael and my recollection is that if you ordered on the night the cost of the manual was $99 but if you waited and ordered later then it would be the higher price of $400+. He indicated that if you had already done a reno then it wouldn't be a lot of value.

IMHO there are plenty of books and magazines in the library that cover the same topics but if you think Michael value adds then all means purchase it. Personally I would like to see before I buy but then I am like that with my IPs...

Cheers

Terry
 
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