Neil Jenman - in Chat - 08:30pm Sunday 4th April
- Thread starter michaelg
- Start date
Sim
Administrator
BV said:
The way you say this, you make it sound like these people are forced into it - like they have no choice !
Look at the psychology of it all though... why are they there in the first place ? Because they want to make money ! There is a motivation there for them to get involved in the first place. For some it's merely a chance to get ahead a bit financially, for others there is simply one motivating factor - greed.
Either way, they are complicit in the process, even if they were naive enough to just go along with it and not question the claims of the "experts". I'm not saying it's their fault alone, but they do need to take some level of responsibility for their actions !!
Excellent points Sim.
Even if these people were scammed, if they could hold that property for a long period of time, they would still come out the other side with a profit. In most cases, it is still probably more than what most people will do towards their financial future...
Even if these people were scammed, if they could hold that property for a long period of time, they would still come out the other side with a profit. In most cases, it is still probably more than what most people will do towards their financial future...
Sim said:
Sim,
Valid points but I do believe that in a way these people haven't
much of a choice once they go along to these trips.
The smooth talk and the nice selling atmosphere takes over.
Its not a nice thing when people are being ripped off
and I don't think that we should tolerate it as much as we do.
We often get unsolicited calls about free investment seminars
or deals that would change our lives.
I personally do feel for people who find themselves in these
situations and for one reason or another they haven't got the will,
or the legal knowledge that will enable them to get out.
Cheers,
I reckon the person that got them into the situation in the first place should be punished!BV said:
ergo: them!
Few people 'find themselves in these situations'.. Generally they lead themselves into these situations - either through their actions or inaction.
They CHOSE not to do research.
It isn't as if they are kidnapped and forced to look at the properties!
They should take responsibility for their own decisions, not attempt to place the blame elsewhere.
Always remember - cons only work when people want to believe in the con and neglect their research or want to take advantage of someone else (you'll sell it to me 50% below market! Of course I'll take it off your hands) or want to make a quick buck.
People con themselves!
Cheers,
Aceyducey
Sim
Administrator
I get cold called a lot - they almost never last longer than 10 seconds on the phone. It's a polite "sorry, I'm not interested" - no matter what it was they were selling (I usually don't wait to find out what it is).
Sorry marketers - if I want something, I'll find it myself when I'm ready. If I can't find it (on the internet usually), you just lost a sale. I never make decisions while on the phone or sitting in front of someone else.
But then, I've learned not to judge others based on my own thoughts and feelings - it seems I'm a minority of one in many things, and other people are just different.
Sorry marketers - if I want something, I'll find it myself when I'm ready. If I can't find it (on the internet usually), you just lost a sale. I never make decisions while on the phone or sitting in front of someone else.
But then, I've learned not to judge others based on my own thoughts and feelings - it seems I'm a minority of one in many things, and other people are just different.
It was marketing like this that first got me interested in property. I saw an add in the paper and went along to a meeting.
Basically I like the dreams they wove and I thought it was worthwhile investigating more. It very quickly became apparent that for someone else to do the legwork I'd have to pay them and I decided that I should be able to do it myself.
I talked to a few people, did a bit of research for myself and found this forum with the intention that if I paid a marketer to do it, I'd be better informed. I very quickly learned how much of a scam it really is.
At the core of it is, I don't like being a sheep and I won't give control over my destiny to someone else. Even sheep have big dreams, but at the end of the day, they're still sheep.
Basically I like the dreams they wove and I thought it was worthwhile investigating more. It very quickly became apparent that for someone else to do the legwork I'd have to pay them and I decided that I should be able to do it myself.
I talked to a few people, did a bit of research for myself and found this forum with the intention that if I paid a marketer to do it, I'd be better informed. I very quickly learned how much of a scam it really is.
At the core of it is, I don't like being a sheep and I won't give control over my destiny to someone else. Even sheep have big dreams, but at the end of the day, they're still sheep.
Clad my new brick house
I agree withn you completely Sim.
If i need a item or service I will investigate it fully. Know what i require, how much it should be , the best to suit what i want etc, etc.
And if you know what you want and the prices etc you are set to get it right.
If you are silly enough to let people calling you on the phone talk you into what you need then you will always have no money.
What i really hate is the phone continually ringing around tea time with everyone wanting to do me a favour, save me heaps of $$. Give me a gift or advise me how lucky I am to have been picked out of so many thousands of people to have my home clad at a bargain price.
I tell them my house is brand new and made of bricks. Then the smart ones will say "we can do window shutters".
No Thanks
I agree withn you completely Sim.If i need a item or service I will investigate it fully. Know what i require, how much it should be , the best to suit what i want etc, etc.
And if you know what you want and the prices etc you are set to get it right.
If you are silly enough to let people calling you on the phone talk you into what you need then you will always have no money.
What i really hate is the phone continually ringing around tea time with everyone wanting to do me a favour, save me heaps of $$. Give me a gift or advise me how lucky I am to have been picked out of so many thousands of people to have my home clad at a bargain price.
I tell them my house is brand new and made of bricks. Then the smart ones will say "we can do window shutters".
No Thanks
Don't you hate cold callers. I do have to laugh at the ones who ring up and say they represent a wealth creation group and ask if I own my own home.
When I said that I'm renting, they thank me and hang up
I sold some rafel tickets for a well known health related charity a few years ago. Since that time I get a call from lots of charties about once a fortnight asking me to sell tickets, donate (direct debit), give time too, etc. As a result I will never help any of these charities again, beyond an anonymous donation.
When I said that I'm renting, they thank me and hang up
I sold some rafel tickets for a well known health related charity a few years ago. Since that time I get a call from lots of charties about once a fortnight asking me to sell tickets, donate (direct debit), give time too, etc. As a result I will never help any of these charities again, beyond an anonymous donation.
Sorry guys but I have to disagree with many of you. We are very lucky to have learnt in life the value of learning and knowledge, whether instilled by our parents or because of our own desires and motivation. Regardless of this some people do not see things the same way. We are all different with different wants, desires, needs and wishes. We should consider all Aussies here including those more gullible and less intuitive or educated.
My family are all battlers. My brother, thank god, listened to my advice about 3-4 yrs ago and bought his first property on the Gold Coast at 32 yrs of age. I drove to the coast and helped him through it, arranged finance for him and now that property he paid 105k for is worth high 200's.
Now if he got a call from a telemarketer saying we'll fly you anywhere you want to go for free, you can use your equity and it won't cost you anything because the tenant, govt and everyone else will pay your mortgage for you plus we have a bank, solicitor and others to make it happen for you, I could imagine to him it would look a great deal.
These company's don't just idly decide to dial any old number and see if they can get some sucker in. They look at incomes, family makeups, area geographies, working classes etc to target likely probabilities. They don't care if they call you guys who are educated and savvy investors and you say to rack off. They move on and find someone who isn't so educated in real estate matters. There are people out there who do have other things they believe to be important to them which doesn't include investing, sadly.
But that doesn't make them bad people, stupid or deserving to be completely ripped by clear cut LIARS and CHEATS.
The banks have a moral and business obligation to disclose to someone if they KNOW you have paid far too much for a property. They KNOW you have been ripped and we aren't talking about a couple of bucks, we are talking 20, 50 even 100 THOUSAND smackers. AND, they did this in cahorts WITH the developers. Every single person to a man involved in these cons should be jailed for fraud and any other charge that could be made.
Also, even if some of us don't agree with all Neil J says it doesn't mean he is always wrong and everything he says is trite. He makes some very valid points regarding this issue, and others, and we shouldn't just disregard his opinion.
About 6 yrs ago I went to work for a supposedly reputable franchise investments company and what an eye opener. I stayed 1 month and saw the carnage they would leave behind. The blatant lies and deceit you couldn't begin to believe. The money involved here is obscene and these people will do anything to get you to buy from them. The pressure applied is done by salespeople who really know what they are doing. I found out years later the owner was up for fraud and hopefully he ended up behind bars.
Please reconsider your attitudes of "it's your own fault if you don't do your research etc". If it was so simple why would so many people be caught up in it. These people have lost everything, and I've been there. They have my full sympathy and the blame should never be laid at their feet. Being naive is not a criminal offence, but fraud and deception are. When it occurrs by those people we rely on and trust, it's reprehensible.
Kev
www.nundahrealestate.com.au
My family are all battlers. My brother, thank god, listened to my advice about 3-4 yrs ago and bought his first property on the Gold Coast at 32 yrs of age. I drove to the coast and helped him through it, arranged finance for him and now that property he paid 105k for is worth high 200's.
Now if he got a call from a telemarketer saying we'll fly you anywhere you want to go for free, you can use your equity and it won't cost you anything because the tenant, govt and everyone else will pay your mortgage for you plus we have a bank, solicitor and others to make it happen for you, I could imagine to him it would look a great deal.
These company's don't just idly decide to dial any old number and see if they can get some sucker in. They look at incomes, family makeups, area geographies, working classes etc to target likely probabilities. They don't care if they call you guys who are educated and savvy investors and you say to rack off. They move on and find someone who isn't so educated in real estate matters. There are people out there who do have other things they believe to be important to them which doesn't include investing, sadly.
But that doesn't make them bad people, stupid or deserving to be completely ripped by clear cut LIARS and CHEATS.
The banks have a moral and business obligation to disclose to someone if they KNOW you have paid far too much for a property. They KNOW you have been ripped and we aren't talking about a couple of bucks, we are talking 20, 50 even 100 THOUSAND smackers. AND, they did this in cahorts WITH the developers. Every single person to a man involved in these cons should be jailed for fraud and any other charge that could be made.
Also, even if some of us don't agree with all Neil J says it doesn't mean he is always wrong and everything he says is trite. He makes some very valid points regarding this issue, and others, and we shouldn't just disregard his opinion.
About 6 yrs ago I went to work for a supposedly reputable franchise investments company and what an eye opener. I stayed 1 month and saw the carnage they would leave behind. The blatant lies and deceit you couldn't begin to believe. The money involved here is obscene and these people will do anything to get you to buy from them. The pressure applied is done by salespeople who really know what they are doing. I found out years later the owner was up for fraud and hopefully he ended up behind bars.
Please reconsider your attitudes of "it's your own fault if you don't do your research etc". If it was so simple why would so many people be caught up in it. These people have lost everything, and I've been there. They have my full sympathy and the blame should never be laid at their feet. Being naive is not a criminal offence, but fraud and deception are. When it occurrs by those people we rely on and trust, it's reprehensible.
Kev
www.nundahrealestate.com.au
Kevin,Kevin Hockey said:
Bottomline - they need to take responsibility for their own actions and choices.
Being naive of the law won't get you of a criminal charge, being naive in an investment scam doesn't mean you can throw up your hands and say it isn't my fault.
Information is freely available from many sources to disprove these scams. If people don't know to call Fair Trading, talk to independent advisors for legal and accounting, look for true property prices & rentals through other agents or online - it's their responsibility.
You can't wrap people up in a coccoon and take away their need to be responsible. Protect them from the harsh cruel world. If you do you end up with even naiver & easier to fool people, you don't end up with less scams but more.
Why is it so simple for people to get caught up in these things? Because we protect people so much that they don't think about the consequences of their actions!
Education is the key & the only education that works at the end of the day is SELF-education.
The information and education is out there, if these people don't take advantage of the resources available to them, if they don't even LOOK to see what resources are available to them, I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.
And that goes for people in my family as much as for people in the broader community. It goes for myself if I do something truly stupid.
The way to get rid of scammers is to not give them opportunities, not make it easy for them to make money this way. Laws cannot do this, you can close loopholes and make the scammers use different tactics, but you cannot shut the scams down without destroying legitimite business as well.
Self-education is the key, and the information is available to everyone in this country.
Cheers,
Aceyducey
Acey,
I agree that nowadays self education is the way to go - the internet means everyone can do their due dilligence on area prices from the comfort of their own home......however.....those that got caught by scams pre 'www' (like myself 11 yrs ago) in two-tiered schemes were like the deer in the headlights - easy prey esp when my previous purchase (at age 21) had gone quite well a few years before.
Fortunately I could afford to keep that property for the 11 years (through the hard times that came and went)....some others were not so lucky. Now that initial mistake has managed to fix itself, and is worth a fair bit more than 11 yrs ago
I agree that nowadays self education is the way to go - the internet means everyone can do their due dilligence on area prices from the comfort of their own home......however.....those that got caught by scams pre 'www' (like myself 11 yrs ago) in two-tiered schemes were like the deer in the headlights - easy prey esp when my previous purchase (at age 21) had gone quite well a few years before.
Fortunately I could afford to keep that property for the 11 years (through the hard times that came and went)....some others were not so lucky. Now that initial mistake has managed to fix itself, and is worth a fair bit more than 11 yrs ago
Self education is the ideal.
I do believe seminars have a place to play in that - they can help bring to life what the books are talking about.
Some people are just not litereate, and readings books doesn't help much. Some people need others ways to learn, and some people will just need someone to hold their hand along the way.
A friend of mine has a saying " you can give a person 10 books to read about having an orgasm, but until they've had one, they've got no idea"
GarryK
I do believe seminars have a place to play in that - they can help bring to life what the books are talking about.
Some people are just not litereate, and readings books doesn't help much. Some people need others ways to learn, and some people will just need someone to hold their hand along the way.
A friend of mine has a saying " you can give a person 10 books to read about having an orgasm, but until they've had one, they've got no idea"
GarryK
