OK, the globe is warming............

This seems to be the majority, nearly universal, opinion of the denizens of SomerSoft.

So what are We, as a group, doing about it? TC posted an alarming link here:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10446700

I copped a lot of flack because I am sceptical of Al Gore's, and the ICCC's "science" but I never said "all is well". It does not matter that I see different problems. It only matters that those I, and you see have the same root cause: We have, overgrown our planet! like weeds or lemmings.

Here comes the blow torch to the belly: Acey started the Climate Change - your views? thread in Feb '04 but have any of us actually made lifestyle changes since or are we doing the usual human thing and expecting someone else to do it for us? Has anyone decided not to take a jet flight they could afford and wanted to do but vetoed it as anti-survival? There are a million other such questions, but you know what I mean.

Having asked the question I must give an answer. I have done nothing.:( But I abhor tokenism and Australia's great contribution by banning filament globes is the tiniest token I am aware of. Flying into the city of your choice, what percentage of the lights you see would come from filament lamps? Three fifths of five eights of bugger all!

The reason I won't accept tokenism is that it (sort of) justifies waste of resources, just as long as you recycle, turn off the tap while brushing, etc which salves our conscience and allows us to buy and use millions of airconditioners. Breaking News: It doesn't work that way.

So what are you, individually, doing to save the planet? Trading your V6 on a Prius doesn't count because the Prius consumes more energy to make than your Falcodore will waste during it's useful life. Ticking the square that allows your electricity provider to charge like a mad bull will merely waste some money in a wind farm with unproven Energy Input/Energy Output (EIEO). You don't think they make them from old jam tins do you?

It also seems most who believe Al Gore are also anti nuclear. Do some serious reading and then justify this anomaly. Nuclear power generation is a mature technology and apart from some crazy Ruskies has a near perfect safety record. Should you accept their experience (damn Russians) as part of the global record for the technology, you must also accept China's abysmal safety record in coal mines as part of the global record for that industry. The only possible conclusion would be that mining and burning conventional energy kills more per year than atomic energy has done in half a century. And forget the Greens, the difficulties involved in waste disposal are all political.

I make no apology for rolling this hand grenade down the aisle. If you have not already changed your life for a simpler one you have no right to criticise Yanks in their Hummers. If you think you only need to act when the majority have shown you how, come join me at The Restaurant At The End Of The Universe. Apologies to Douglas Adams.
 
Na. I've done nothing to change.

It would be hard to work out my foot print on the earth. I consume 60,000 litres of diesel a year, 200 tonnes of fertilizer made from fossil fuel, but I convert that to grain. I believe I'm doing a good efficient job in this conversion to grain, so the more of the starving masses my grain feeds, the less forest has to be chopped down.

How much CO2 is my crops using up? It would be more than the scrub that would be there otherwise. No Till farming is supposed to increase organic matter [this is adding CO2] to the soil. And it has.

Working out my CO2 equasion is too hard for me.


Yep. Good point Sunfish. I'm too busy licking my chops, thinking how good agriculture will be in the future if some of the forecasts are right.

See ya's.
 
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But I abhor tokenism and Australia's great contribution by banning filament globes is the tiniest token I am aware of. .

Nope. What about turning out the city lights that night a few months ago? that had to be a bigger token jesture?

The contradictions in this debate go on and on. The greens want to reduce green house gases, yet they are anti nuclear. :eek: Whats the go there?
Electric cars? What about the extra power generation needed. Plus weight of vehicle and fossil fuels in manufacture. Bob Geldoff, David Suzuki, Al Gore or any other climate saviours, flying around the world in CO2 spewing jet airliners to warn everyone. Pop stars and Holywood movie stars promoting organic food when organic means a halving or more in yields, thus more forest chopped down. Lets see the houses these people live in and the cars they drive.??!! Recycling? Great. Doesn't work in rural areas. What about the energy used in transporting a truckload of plastic bottles?

Theres no easy solution besides a dramatic drop in living standards, and since 99% of the population wont drop their living standards, 99% are hypocrites.

See ya's.
 
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Not much

Well, have bought a few hectares of hardwood trees - I guess that helps, but someone else gets to claim the carbon credits.

I support Nuclear Power, us digging up Uranium and value adding through processing and then storing spent fuel - becoming the one-stop shop for uranium fuel and massively increasing our GDP growth - but I need a few others to jump on the band-wagon to get that one up.... Happy also to see wind farms and other renewables supporting the mix - but not paying a premium at the moment for it.

Also support large scale water recycling (I'd happily drink recycled water - you know that fish crap in the stuff we drink now :D ) - but another one that is unlikely to get up in our current society whilst emotional arguments hold more weight than practical and pragmatic ones.

I guess these aren't personal changes though. I turn off lights and try to drive efficiently, but other than that, bugger all else.

I'm with you guys - I'd like to see the big ticket items get up
 
(I'd happily drink recycled water - you know that fish crap in the stuff we drink now :D )
Actually they do more'n poop in it and you can quote W. C. Fields as an authority on that.

Some years ago our city was in the grip of a drought (yes, they happened before too) and I went to our dam and there were turtle heads popping up every few meters and the water was brown and stank. My big concern on recycled water is that there is already too much oestrogen and antibiotics in our system and I'm not sure they break down in the cleansing process.
 
I've been reasonably active - supporting a local councillor who is big on sustainable development, doing small things like turning off water heaters when not needed, and installation of energy efficient lights, and I'm involved in a volunteer group of staff where I work whose aim is to promote efficiency in the workplace (using less electricity, recycled paper, etc) and who have a wider interest in environmental issues.

M
 
James Packer goes and gets married [is he married yet?] In the south of France. Flys in hundreds of guests. The wedding costs 5 million or something!

This is an example of a mega rich person. Good on James, he can afford it, and a $5 mil wedding to him is the same as a $5 thousand wedding for me, but what about the energy and greenhouse gases produced in the whole operation? I don't think James is too concerned with global warming. It was probably a good move getting married over there. The rain in Sydney? Or Ellerston, Scone? They would still be there, bogged!

As a general rule, the wealthier a person is, the more greenhouse gases produced. The average somersoftian is wealthier than the average Australian. The average Australian is a billionaire on a world standard. This is the case for me. I'm doing very well. I've got airconditioners now. Just 15 years ago I didn't as I could never have afforded it. I fly to New Zealand every few years. Not before.

See ya's.
 
Al Gores house?

http://www.tennesseepolicy.org/main/article.php?article_id=367

......."Gore’s mansion, located in the posh Belle Meade area of Nashville, consumes more electricity every month than the average American household uses in an entire year, according to the Nashville Electric Service (NES).".......

......."In total, Gore paid nearly $30,000 in combined electricity and natural gas bills for his Nashville estate in 2006.".........


Thanks for starting this thread Sunfish. Links a few of my favourite subjects together.

See ya's.
 
I bought the book Heat - How to Stop the Planet Burning on the weekend, written by George Monbiot.

[What follows is a quote from the Introduction of that book]

Ours are the most fortunate generations that have ever lived. Ours might also be the most fortunate generations that ever will. We inhabit the brief historical interlude between ecological constraint and ecological catastrophe.

If in the year 2030, carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere remain as high as they are today, the likely result is two degrees centigrade (above pre-industrial levels). Two degrees is the point beyond which certain major ecosystems begin collapsing. Having, until then, absorbed carbon dioxide, they begin to release it. Beyond this point, in other words, climate change is out of our hands: it will accelerate without our help. The only means by which we can ensure that there is a high chance that the temperature does not rise to this point is for the rich nations to cut their greenhouse gas emissions by 90 per cent by 2030. This is the task whose feasibility Heat attempts to demonstrate. By 'feasibility' I mean compatability with industrial civilisation.

...changes of the kind I advocate in this book cannot take place without constraints which apply to everyone, rather than to everyone else. I am sorry to say that only regulation - that deeply unfashionable idea - can quell the destruction wrought by the god we serve, the god of our own appetites. Manmade global warming cannot be restrained unless we persude the government to force us to change the way we live.

People won't change until they are made to.

M
 
There are a few people out there (and a few people in here) who argue that while climate change is occuring, industrial-age human activity has not been a contributing factor (or has been a minor factor).

I have to say that I am perplexed by such arguments.

It's a redundant point whether or not human activity has, or has not, been contributing to the climate change now plainly evident on this planet.

The issue is what we (as in humans) do in response to the changing climate.

So we have 2 choices -

1. We determine that we are just insignificant and powerless parasites on a large bit of rock floating in space and orbiting the star that we call "the sun" and sit back and do squat while our planet (NB - the only home we have) begins to overheat thereby causing whole ecosystems to collapse and changing (for at least thousands of years) the nature of life on the planet.

or...

2. We determine that irrespective of the causes of the climate change, we have the technology, fortitude and the will, to enact changes that will counter the effects of the current changing climate so that our species may continue to live in the future in an environment not too dissimilar to the one that we enjoy today.

Can't speak for anyone else, of course, but I like option 2 much better.

But then, I'm always up for a good fight.

M
 
People won't change until they are made to.

M

I think you are spot on.

Then, say the labour government brings in the changes neccessary? Real climate saving changes? It would bring so much hardship, they would be voted out next election. If labour don't win, and the coalition bring in the climate saving changes, they would get voted out.

We are all a bunch of whingers, we all know how to fix things, but no one is prepared, or 99% of us to do the hardship required.


I'm talking real climate changing things. Not just collecting rain water. Turning off taps, buying a smaller car. I'm talking selling the car, Stop travelling, changing to a vegan diet, putting on the jacket and blankets instead of the heater, sweating out the heatwave instead of turning on the airconditioner. I'm not prepared to do that and either is 99% of the rest of us.

See ya's.
 
The reason I won't accept tokenism is that it (sort of) justifies waste of resources, just as long as you recycle, turn off the tap while brushing, etc which salves our conscience and allows us to buy and use millions of airconditioners. Breaking News: It doesn't work that way.

Hey Sunfish,

I was actually thinking about this exact same issue on my walk to work this morning. Came to the conclusion that while I may do token stuff like what is mentioned above and I'm concious of trying not to use too many resources as well as choosing not to own a car and take public transport or walk everywhere and other such things, when it comes down to it, I don't really have any concerns environmentally and I'm not willing to change my lifestyle.

It makes me laugh when I see people at the supermarket with their 'green bags' claiming they are helping the environment, then they go out to their 4WD, talk incessantly on their mobile phones, live in a huge house that is way too big for their needs, have a pool, a boat and air conditioning.

When it comes down to it, I don't really care. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that differentiates me from 95% of the population is that I'm willing to be honest about it.

Mark
 
A couple of alternative POVs.....

1. Haven't ecosystems been collapsing regularly for the last few billion years & being replaced by ecosystems that can adapt to the prevailing conditions. If there's more CO2 out there then ecosystems will v. quickly adapt to absorb it. The fittest will survive.

Isn't it about time something forced mankind to reduce it's population to a more sustainable level - if the human population is reduced by 90% then won't the remainder have learnt a valuable lesson and be fitter & stronger the next time.

2. Technology will prevail - someone will grow a CO2 scrubber that converts CO2 and seawater into hydrogen, oxygen and something else. This will be a million times more effective than anything we are doing now.

Mass token gestures won't stretch to forgoing regular new mobiles/cars/plasma/os holidays. So we either need to accept that there will be huge decrease in population, a return to 19th century style lifestyle, or better technology.
 
This is not really the debate I thought we would have.

We are all greedy capitalists.

I've got $ signs in my eyes thinking what my rural land will be worth.
Keith is about to build a mansion from his investing profits. Keiths place is too cold now anyway!
Marks done more than most. Good on ya Mark.
Pitt Street is thinking of his property fortune when everyone wants to move to southern NZ to escape the heat.
Barracuda's bought some trees and done all the token stuff.
Bill wants to retire a multi millionaire in comfort from his mining stock.


I wonder how this debate would have went on a forum with a more environmental bias??? Rather than one full of capitalist investors?

See ya's.
 
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TC

I don't see how capitalism (as investors) and environmentalism (as citizens of this planet) have to conflict with each other.

What if I was a developer who decided to construct eco-friendly or energy-efficient housing? [We have plans on the drawing board for 2008 to do a development and have instructed the designed to think energy efficiency]

Or a landlord who saw the value in better insulating IPs?

M
 
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We plants trees...

Ironically enough it was some of my ancestors that helped clear the land for farming....pulling out trees and all sorts of vegetation....creating dams and channels, they did the best they could with what they knew at the time and worked very very hard.

beforerain5.JPG


Spring_2006_176.JPG


We plant trees, they are the native to our area, quite quick growing, relatively drought tolerant :) beautiful flowering gum trees (red flowering ironbarks), the birds love them, they provide excellent wind breaks (YES!) and are great for the land and ecology system...plus they look good and we love our trees.

Spring_2006_180.JPG


We plant every spring and autumn, (have a good survival rate too) as long as we deep rip beforehand.......(kids love to help)...we are very proud of our trees.
 
This is not really the debate I thought we would have
.....
Keith is about to build a mansion from his investing profits. Keiths place is too cold now anyway!

OK..... the efforts I've made - the 'mansion' is built from poured earth (AKA dirt) & bare hands. It's passive solar design, under floor solar heating & hot water, no cooling required, will use v. little mains water & has it's own sewerage treatment that needs no power. And the rest of the heating will be from locally fallen trees. This will be a long term reduction in my energy use. However, it's cost a fair bit more initially - mostly in labour.

I got rid of the old 4WD a couple of yrs ago & got a small one that uses a lot less fuel. And I tend to buy stuff that won't need replacing and only get rid of it when it stops working. And I don't use any energy to get to work :).

OTOH, I expect to be making use of a lot more aviation fuel in the coming years.
 
Well I know one thing that would make a difference to how much power is used in a home..................................

Get the younger generations to turn off the BL...Y lights..............

We had a visit from our Gen X's and grandkids recently and every room they went into on came the light and was left on until they went to bed that night.

Then they tell me they are green conscious.................. :confused:
 
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