Parents Into Care ? Age Care advisers.

[Paul@PFI]

One of the fastest growing arms of our financial services business is Age Care Services. Our principal got into this by default having found nobody who seemed to be expert and in past two years its gone crazy helping existing clients. Then we advertised and have been blown away with response. That doesnt mean we sell / broker people going into care. On a fee basis we can guide but never for kick-backs. We advise on structuring so that centrelink / pensions / DVA / fees etc are all considered so that adverse outcomes don't happen. Often our clients are the adult kids of older parents. Nobody want to use age care - But when it happens its far better to have a plan that doesnt involve losing massive benefits and money.

Recent client approached us explaining they were touched up for a $600k accomodation bond putting mum into high level care following medical concerns. Sell her house ?? No. That is often unnecessary. We assisted to negotiate NO BOND. Client got accom in same facility - Not some dodgy centre they didnt like. The house is now rented out and the rent doesnt affect age pension. This was a huge financial relief for family who didnt want to sell mum's home.

Another - Client in palliative care. Son explains that Dad has huge CGT losses and a large portfolio owned for years. Advice : Trigger CGT prior to death to absorb losses and refresh cost base. CGT losses are lost on death. Double dip annual tax free thresholds too since he dies a few days later. In that instance we worked with the existing accountant who was way out of depth. Lucky he asked for help.

Interested to hear other advisers or even family members views of how they deal with the aging client problem. We have found nobody wants to talk about it but its a industry in high demand.
q: Is this something some advisers need a partner to assist with ?
q: Who is your age care adviser of choice ? Know any who are an expert?
q: If a client approaches with these concerns where can you send them ?

 

[moyjos]

I agree this is a huge growth market.

I would welcome a much needed overhaul into this market. It is a minefield of options and confusion. Some qualified and un-emotional advisors will be a good thing

 

[weg]

The average person can easily navigate this service and find a nursing home if they spend an afternoon researching what it's about.

Centerlink, the good people from the aged care assessment panel who do the assessing, the social workers attached to the hospital where the parent has been an inpatient, the various free aged care advisory lines, and even the nursing homes themselves, provide the information that's required.

No offence to the OP but only in the high complex financial cases would this be necessary.

 

[weg]

I would welcome a much needed overhaul into this market. It is a minefield of options and confusion. Some qualified and un-emotional advisors will be a good thing

There are LOTS of qualified advisors out there - both free and those who charge.

 

[Paul@PFI]

Weg

Weg - We finding its an issue for more than "complex cases" Agree not a concern for someone with little $. Agree on the simple approach for basic affairs - My own mum as example. Our clients have indicated similar views and much of the advice many receive is unfortunately deficient as soon as assets or income issues exist. I'm beginning to feel its a touchy subject and many dont want to ask if there is a cheaper option when dealing with parents. And they are being conned on that emotional issue. Love criticism and feedback on this idea....wish I was wrong I suspect.

- Centrelink wont guide asset / income and just insist on "fill out forms". We see many incorrect.
- ACAT assessment can be adverse if assets are reported incorrectly.
- Most people incorrectly fill out forms (ie "home" may be an exempt asset but they include it).
- The guidance from most care facilities (they arent called Nursing homes any more - Commonwealth law) is a demand for a bond unless they have no $ in which case its free.

I like the "unemotional" comment. 100% agree. Many seem to be getting advice from suppliers of services who never discuss Options B&C. Our experience is that there isnt a "aged care shopfront" anywhere. Sure there are websites which list all providers. There is no PDS or disclosure obligation, no best interest test.

Interested to hear from anyone who has placed parents etc into care on how they approached the problem. Who gave good alternative advice ? Anyone give them great tips. Clients we are seeing are all drowning in complex issues with no idea as seems the facility owners just want to sell large bonds. How many believe family home must be sold to pay a bond ? Did anyone tell you how to avoid selling ? Yet all providers must offer free and subsidised also (if vacancies).
- How many know that a bond can be left unpaid and the bond "erodes" as a form of interest ? At a negotiable rate too?

 

[weg]

I was with ACAT for a while a few years ago and from time to time deal with them for the occasional client.

Also placed my FIL in a nursing home, who has assets other than the family home a few weeks ago, and have friends who have done so recently as well.

Centerlink even though a bit hit and miss (depends on who you get - so ring again if you have to and ask for the person allocated to give out this advice) does do more than give you a form, and ACAT, social workers and aged care advisory centers do help you as well.

If you feel too unconfident filling out some forms and don't care to seek out some advice on simple matters like 'do I have to sell the family home' then an aged care consultant is the way to go.

Only one of the friends of those that placed the parent in a nursing home in recent times hired a consultant - paid $1800 - and by the end of the process thought they could have easily done it themselves - there really isn't much of a 'process' after the assessment approves you.

But like you said there are cases where you do need accounting help or have other complex and difficult issues that need sorting out.

I just thought in the first post you hadn't properly distinguished between who most likely needed a consultant and who normally didn't.

 

[Crabnet]

Interested to hear from anyone who has placed parents etc into care on how they approached the problem. Who gave good alternative advice ? Anyone give them great tips. Clients we are seeing are all drowning in complex issues with no idea as seems the facility owners just want to sell large bonds. How many believe family home must be sold to pay a bond ? Did anyone tell you how to avoid selling ? Yet all providers must offer free and subsidised also (if vacancies).
- How many know that a bond can be left unpaid and the bond "erodes" as a form of interest ? At a negotiable rate too?

Yeah I had to put my dad into care eventually after assisting him to stay at home for as long as possible.
First stop was a six month stay in a hospital ward after a fall at which time it was decided that the time had come to boot him out of his house where he lived alone.
A social worker gave me the rundown on finding care during an appointment at the hospital. She also contacted me a couple of times during the wait, encouraging mr to make follow up phone calls to those places I had applied to.
During this time I also had to apply to the guardianship board to manage his health and financial affairs.
Internet searches helped with understanding the complexities of paying for aged care.
The only hiccup was when two years had passed and his family home was no longer an exempt asset as part of testing for aged care. I hadn't expected that. My fault for not doing my homework.
Anyway I wrote a letter to Centrelink which I included with the associated form they had sent me to fill out, asking for time to sell his house to pay for his care over the longer term.
Not long after I got a call from a nice man who worked in one of the Centrlink departments to whom the letter had been passed.
He told me to write again to Centrelink saying I had made a mistake with the original form and submit a new form using different information. He also told me what info I would need to be able to substantiate the new information.
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more.

It was a while ago now so I suppose the rules have changed since then.

 

[Terry_w]

Interested to hear other advisers or even family members views of how they deal with the aging client problem. We have found nobody wants to talk about it but its a industry in high demand.
q: Is this something some advisers need a partner to assist with ?
q: Who is your age care adviser of choice ? Know any who are an expert?
q: If a client approaches with these concerns where can you send them ?

I studied this from a legal POV in my masters of law course - Elder Law. There are a lot of issues out there with 'granny flats', loans to and from children, gifts to and from children, powers of attorney and abuse there of, medical treatment etc.

One legal common potential problem is where an elderly parent sells a house and uses the proceeds to construct a granny flat on the land of the adult child. Imagine the mess if the child becomes bankrupt, mortgages the land, has a falling out with the parent, dies before their parent or divorces/separates etc. Also messy in terms of tax with CGT events for granting and forgiving life interests.

 

[marg4000]

We have been through this 3 times with ageing parents - all cases different but certain similarities.

In certain cases I can see the need for financial advice, but when it comes to actually choosing the nursing home there is nothing like looking for yourself. I believe that even if you hire a placement company you still have to do the personal inspections yourself. And despite what some will tell you, they WON'T get you priority of entry.

We found all the nursing homes we approached were very good, and offered quite a few different options regarding the bond and fees paid. All were happy to answer questions and explain things fully.

By the 3rd time, on the day we got the ACAT assessment I spent a few hours on the internet and the next day had appointments at our 5 preferred nursing homes.

At all times we were (and are) conscious that any money involved belonged to the parent and we always act strictly in their best interests. Problems seem to arise when people who will benefit under a will feel they have an entitlement while the parent is still alive. Sad, but it happens.

If you have the time and are prepared to put in a bit of leg work then it is a process that is relatively easy to work through. ACAT, DVA, Centrelink all have advisers who will answer any questions.

When finances are complex it would become a bit more involved.

And having all the correct paperwork (EPAs, legal documents in an identified place etc) made the process easier.

Marg

 

[weg]

marg, that sums it up. The legwork really needs to be done by family. Not easily outsourced imo.

Because it's something you may do once or twice late in life you really don't seek or pay too much attention to info you come across regarding what's involved and this is were people can be made to feel it is complex.

The hardest part is probably choosing a nursing home that ticks all the boxes and one that you feel comfortable having your loved one in - there are many great ones about too regardless of some of the stories one hears.

One that someone calls dodgy (for no good reason if it has always met standards) may be perfect for someone else.

I know I saw places that i wasn't keen on and others were.

The premium 'extra services' (what I assume the OP saved the family from ) is not always what it's cracked up to be either - this has been reported in the media recently - and non 'extra services' doesn't mean bad.

Like you said this is usually all explained to people by the various social workers and government departments assisting you.